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Typical Amount of MS into Bags?


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#1 BirdsArentReal

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Posted 06 April 2022 - 02:04 PM

How mush MSS do you guys usually inject into the larger bags that hold 4qts grain?

 

I usually do atleast 2ml (?) cant remember if thats the correct unit of measurement.

 

This last grow however I decided to stretch out my MS and inject 8 bags with one 10 ml syringe. So I guess I put a little over 1ml into each bag. I know I'm being a cheap bast*rd, I imagine it will just slow my colonization time a bit. I guess it also depends on the genetics Ive ended up with though as well.

 

Really feeling dumb right now, sometimes my cheapness gets the best of me.


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#2 HrVanker

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Posted 06 April 2022 - 02:15 PM

The worry isn't usually whether enough spores will make it into the substrate, but whether too much water goes in. Wetness (the essence of water ), is one of the major things we're trying to control when prepping grain/sub. So adding extra can become very problematic.

All the teks I recall reading, many moons ago, usually said .25-1ml of solution (LC or MS) to a jar. I suppose you could scale that up if you are doing gallon bags or something. But I'm sure the vaults have some more definite info.
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#3 Juthro

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Posted 06 April 2022 - 02:24 PM

I think that is probably a little light for those size bags, but I would guess that you'll be OK.  It maybe a bit slow starting off, but as long as your hydration is correct (like Hr was saying above), and your grain was sterilized, then it should work.

 

Good luck, and good grow vibes to you.


Edited by Juthro, 06 April 2022 - 02:45 PM.

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#4 Arathu

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Posted 06 April 2022 - 06:26 PM

It is IME by far way better to error on the dry side than wet so if sterilization was done correctly then you might just be quite pleasantly surprised.....

 

You might be a bit light on inoculate but I wouldn't stress it at all.....keep GOOD VIBES going.......

 

Coming atcha.....

 


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#5 BirdsArentReal

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Posted 06 April 2022 - 06:55 PM

Thanks everyone. I usually Soak my grains for maybe somewhere around 14-16 hours so they are usually on the dry side. Injecting too much extra water is not something I generally worry about but def get what you're saying. Also, pretty confident with my sterilization tek, haven't had problems in that dept in years.

 

Wish me luck!!



#6 sandman

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Posted 07 April 2022 - 10:29 AM

I put about 100cc of LC into a bag that size with no problem. The pooling will colonize. 

 

I don't recommend using spores to grain at all, especially in a grain bag with 4 qts in it. Bad idea.


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#7 BirdsArentReal

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Posted 07 April 2022 - 11:17 AM

I put about 100cc of LC into a bag that size with no problem. The pooling will colonize. 

 

I don't recommend using spores to grain at all, especially in a grain bag with 4 qts in it. Bad idea.

Why is it a bad idea? I've done it literally 100s of times with little failure. My only concern was that I maybe was a little light with the MS.



#8 Juthro

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Posted 07 April 2022 - 12:28 PM

I think what Sandman is saying is that with LC's you are generally more sure that your culture is clean, and with spore solution there is a greater chance of some baddies going along for the ride.   

Sandman is a long time, very skilled grower, and he can pull off a lot of things that are out of my league.  I have faith if he said he did it, he did it, and I want to be clear that I'm not contradicting him.   

 

Though for me personally, I've had very poor luck with grain if the bag (or jar) became over hydrated.  If there is any type of pooling I tend to get bacterial infections.  But it should be noted that I'm not a real high skilled mushroom grower, I'm just a guy who likes to grow a little bit for personal use now and then.

 

IMHO the 'right' way to do things is what works for you.

Good grow vibes.

 

(BTW, I love you handle, BirdsArentReal :)


Edited by Juthro, 07 April 2022 - 12:33 PM.

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#9 TVCasualty

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Posted 07 April 2022 - 02:33 PM

 

I put about 100cc of LC into a bag that size with no problem. The pooling will colonize. 

 

I don't recommend using spores to grain at all, especially in a grain bag with 4 qts in it. Bad idea.

Why is it a bad idea? I've done it literally 100s of times with little failure. My only concern was that I maybe was a little light with the MS.

 

 

What's your typical failure rate on those bags (how many fail per 100)?


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#10 BirdsArentReal

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Posted 07 April 2022 - 06:09 PM

 

 

I put about 100cc of LC into a bag that size with no problem. The pooling will colonize. 

 

I don't recommend using spores to grain at all, especially in a grain bag with 4 qts in it. Bad idea.

Why is it a bad idea? I've done it literally 100s of times with little failure. My only concern was that I maybe was a little light with the MS.

 

 

What's your typical failure rate on those bags (how many fail per 100)?

 

I'd say every 32 bags or so I may have anywhere from 1-4 go south. I've always suspected alot of that is from my bags possibly getting blown out/having small holes in them as sometimes I can get a little goofy with my pressure cooking :blink:.

 

Theres def been an instance or two where ive had more at a time go bad on me but those were isolated incidents where I was being careless while inoculating. Like I just didnt clean up my work space/myself before use, didnt wear gloves etc.

 

Keep in mind I do not use a flowhood. I basically just work in an isolated and empty room within a closet in that room. I just say this to explain why I dont use agar or liquid cultures. Just alot easier to use spores and take my own prints and what not without a flowhood.


Edited by BirdsArentReal, 07 April 2022 - 06:11 PM.

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#11 TVCasualty

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Posted 08 April 2022 - 12:43 PM

That's not a bad failure rate, and is impressive for the method if those results remain consistent, esp. without a flow hood.

 

Documenting a grow in bags started from MS (including photos) would be a significant contribution to the discussion/debate around using MS for inoculating whole-grain jars or bags.

 

If you're into posting such a thread it would be appreciated by many around here.

 

 

 

The main reason why MS for grain is not advised is because of it taking considerably longer to colonize than from using mycelium, and that extended colonization time exposes the grain to a much higher risk of contamination.

 

The argument against MS on grain isn't that it doesn't or can't work but that it makes the probability of failure unacceptably high, though in a residential/"hobbyist" setting 'unacceptable' is relative.

 

In commercial contexts, a failure rate of 2% would be cause for serious concern and would prompt a thorough investigation as to the cause, though commercial growers are also professionals working in proper tissue culture labs with really nice gear (not a back bedroom). That said, when the goal is getting a head stash of magic mushrooms and not selling gourmet edibles commercially then the failure rate is much less important than getting some mushrooms at all.

 

But when the goal is getting more than a head stash then commercial standards/"best practices" are well-worth adopting IMO. Going from what I started with (LCs and agar wedges mostly, which were already faster than MS) to the Slurry Tek was like replacing a manual screwdriver with an impact driver (an exponential increase in productivity, literally).

 

Then again, I've skipped the slurry completely a bunch of times and just crumbled colonized cakes into pasteurized straw with great success, too.

 

There are many ways to skin this cat, of course. If something works and you're satisfied with the results then stick to it! FWIW, any recommendations, advice, or suggestions I offer are with the intent of helping others grow as many mushrooms as possible as quickly as possible with a minimum of hassle and contamination.


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#12 BirdsArentReal

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 09:42 AM

That's not a bad failure rate, and is impressive for the method if those results remain consistent, esp. without a flow hood.

 

Documenting a grow in bags started from MS (including photos) would be a significant contribution to the discussion/debate around using MS for inoculating whole-grain jars or bags.

 

If you're into posting such a thread it would be appreciated by many around here.

 

 

 

The main reason why MS for grain is not advised is because of it taking considerably longer to colonize than from using mycelium, and that extended colonization time exposes the grain to a much higher risk of contamination.

 

The argument against MS on grain isn't that it doesn't or can't work but that it makes the probability of failure unacceptably high, though in a residential/"hobbyist" setting 'unacceptable' is relative.

 

In commercial contexts, a failure rate of 2% would be cause for serious concern and would prompt a thorough investigation as to the cause, though commercial growers are also professionals working in proper tissue culture labs with really nice gear (not a back bedroom). That said, when the goal is getting a head stash of magic mushrooms and not selling gourmet edibles commercially then the failure rate is much less important than getting some mushrooms at all.

 

But when the goal is getting more than a head stash then commercial standards/"best practices" are well-worth adopting IMO. Going from what I started with (LCs and agar wedges mostly, which were already faster than MS) to the Slurry Tek was like replacing a manual screwdriver with an impact driver (an exponential increase in productivity, literally).

 

Then again, I've skipped the slurry completely a bunch of times and just crumbled colonized cakes into pasteurized straw with great success, too.

 

There are many ways to skin this cat, of course. If something works and you're satisfied with the results then stick to it! FWIW, any recommendations, advice, or suggestions I offer are with the intent of helping others grow as many mushrooms as possible as quickly as possible with a minimum of hassle and contamination.

 

I will gladly EVENTUALLY make an in depth post breaking down everything I do. To be honest though, literally everything I do, I learned from this forum so it's nothing ground breaking. Also, before my head gets too big, I should mention like I have elsewhere on the site that I am having trich issues with my substrate right now. Whether its genetics, a problem with this batch of grain, or simply an overload of spores in my space, I still havent quite figured that part out yet. So I will be holding off on a Tek post until that issue is taken care of.

 

I 1000% know I need to move on from spores. Honestly I just got into an 'if its not broke then dont fix it' kinda situation. I've been looking into info on building a laminar flow hood for years now. Just havent gotten around to doing it. Then I actually met a guy who said he'd let me use or have his but we both kinda flaked on that happening. These substrate problems I've had for the past 5 months or so have really given me a come to jesus moment though. I am going to streamline my sh*t and probably start using agar or possibly this slurry tek you speak of (although I have barely looked into slurries.)


Edited by BirdsArentReal, 11 April 2022 - 11:57 AM.

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#13 TVCasualty

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 04:30 PM

I live in the most contaminated part of the country when it comes to airborne molds and such, and one of the ways I've managed to be successful here anyway is by sheer speed (outrunning contaminants). It's part of why Stamets' latest book was titled Mycelium Running.

 

The slurry tek is one thing that helped me accomplish that, along with massively-increased pasteurization times for my bulk subs which are either 100% straw or a blend of straw and Hpoo (I've gone almost completely to 100% straw grows in recent years). I hold my substrate at pasteurization temp for ~12 hours before turning off the heat and letting it cool slowly (my pasteurizer is insulated) for about 18 hours. It stays over 150F for another 8-10, usually, which is why it takes so long.

 

Once I switched to the very long pasteurization time my issues with contamination dropped dramatically, particularly in terms of multiple flushes (I have some ideas as to why but that's getting way off-topic).

 

The next thing I changed was adding positive-pressure HEPA-filtered ventilation. That's not easy, and I did it by repurposing my first flow hood into doing that (it was 12"x24"). But it's definitely worth figuring out how to do something similar if you can manage it, (it only actually helps if you keep the grow room impeccably clean all the time, too of course). Even then I can't really grow in the Summer (or much of the Fall) where I live since air conditioning would be required and air conditioners are mold factories (it's a really tough and underappreciated problem for a lot of home growers).

 

 

 

If you've not worked in front of a flow hood before then getting one and going right to the slurry tek will involve a short but steep learning curve. It's not difficult in a technical sense to do, but there is a lot to keep in mind while you're doing it (sterile technique 101). Making the stuff might be a hassle though, depending. But it's cheap!

 

One of the many things I like about the slurry tek is that I don't have to bother with agar or LCs or isolates at all. It's literally just taking a PF Tek style cake started from spores, turning it into mud with a sterilized blender, and pouring the mud into jars or bags of grain. My thread detailing how to make it seems a lot more complicated than it is to actually do it. I tried to cover as many bases as possible for those who don't often make stuff like that.

 

The catch with using a slurry is making sure nothing else slips in while you're making and dispensing it, and a flow hood makes that relatively easy but is expensive.

 

A nice big SAB (still air box) works for this too while being considerably less convenient to work with but is also exponentially cheaper and easier to acquire.

 

A full mycology lab (for a home, that is) needs both, actually, so if you start now with a SAB and later get a flow hood you'll be all set to expand into other stuff (other active species, gourmet edibles, etc.) if you want. The more of this stuff we do, the more we tend to want to do (it can get obsessive; you've been warned!).

 

Oh, and last thing to mention is that when you do start a new approach or method, don't switch over 100% to it. Do some smaller-scale trials and get it working consistently before doing that. There's always a bumpy transition period between theory and practice, I've found. In theory that should be something we can eliminate, but in practice we can't.

 

Good luck!


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#14 BirdsArentReal

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Posted 12 April 2022 - 08:09 PM

Thank you so much for the response Casualty, everything you mentioned about speed has 100% been on my mind recently. I really need to check that book out. I think if I can combine my almost obsessive cleaning regime with a flowhood and faster spawn tek I could elevate my grow to legendary status. I've done pretty well for myself in the past five years or so with the most basic of teks. I can only imagine how I'll do by phasing in some better stuff.

 

On that note, I def get what you mean by not putting all your eggs in one basket. I started out with PF tek and slowly over time tested out diff grain, bigger jars, bigger tubs, bigger bags, diff substrates and so on LOL I know how it goes.


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#15 BirdsArentReal

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Posted 13 April 2022 - 09:55 AM

Im sure nobody cares, but mycelium started showing in most of those bags yesterday. That means exactly one week after inoculating a 4 quart unicorn bag of rye, with only about 1.2 ml of spore solution, growth is obvious.  Id also add that the temperature in the bag area of my room really wasnt ideal, a little cool. In other words I reckon if it was a little warmer it wouldve sped up the grow process a little bit. ALSO these genetics seem pretty good so far. Aside from the fact that I've noticed growth in a relatively quick period of time, considering I inoculated straight to grain, I also visibly can see how much its grown just since last night.

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#16 ElPirana

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Posted 13 April 2022 - 10:38 AM

Always nice to see new growth!
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#17 TVCasualty

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 09:27 AM

Im sure nobody cares, but mycelium started showing in most of those bags yesterday. That means exactly one week after inoculating a 4 quart unicorn bag of rye, with only about 1.2 ml of spore solution, growth is obvious.  Id also add that the temperature in the bag area of my room really wasnt ideal, a little cool. In other words I reckon if it was a little warmer it wouldve sped up the grow process a little bit. ALSO these genetics seem pretty good so far. Aside from the fact that I've noticed growth in a relatively quick period of time, considering I inoculated straight to grain, I also visibly can see how much its grown just since last night.

 

This is one of the few places around where everybody cares about news like that!

 

The unofficial motto of grow sites everywhere is "pics or it didn't happen!" And there is a pic, so it happened. Nice closeup shot, by the way.

 

 

 

 

That means exactly one week after inoculating a 4 quart unicorn bag of rye, with only about 1.2 ml of spore solution, growth is obvious.

 

 

You're really going to like how fast the slurry tek is.

 

All other things being equal (incubation temp, strain, amount of grain per bag), about 2 ml of spore solution can be grown out to 10 fully-colonized bags of grain, ready to fruit (or spawn to bulk) in 19-21 days.


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#18 BirdsArentReal

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 10:56 AM

TV, can you link your slurry TEK? I seem to be an idiot when it comes to searching for this info LOL. Believe me I tried.

 

Im assuming when you refer to growing out bags you mean the larger bags that can hold 4 qts of grain? That is most excellent if so. I believe a couple of times I got lucky and had bags colonized in almost exactly a month. I was probably using a bit more spore solution and it was most likely pretty warm temps.

 

I guess when you think about it, aside from the fact that youre risking contamination the longer the process takes, if growing larger amounts, a month really isnt that long to wait. Especially if you can get fruits within a week or two of going to a bulk sub. Id like to get the whole process down to a month though, thats a nice clean number. It's def possible I believe but most likely not just using straight spores.


Edited by BirdsArentReal, 14 April 2022 - 10:58 AM.

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#19 MushLuvR

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 11:30 AM

I believe he (@TVCasualty) is referencing his Tek from many years ago but is still very much VALID.  Christmas of 07, damn seems so long ago.  

 

TV Guide to Colonizing a Quart Jar in Three Days - Spawning TEKS - Mycotopia

 

MushL


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#20 BirdsArentReal

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 11:33 AM

I believe he (@TVCasualty) is referencing his Tek from many years ago but is still very much VALID.  Christmas of 07, damn seems so long ago.  

 

TV Guide to Colonizing a Quart Jar in Three Days - Spawning TEKS - Mycotopia

 

MushL

HAHAHAHAH explains why I couldnt find it. Thank you!

 

Also explains why I remember reading about this years ago.


Edited by BirdsArentReal, 14 April 2022 - 11:34 AM.

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