10 replies to this topic

[Limdull]

I have not used these forums in a few years so I didn't know the best place to ask this and asked it first in the "Forum International - TEKS & Mushrooms of the World" but I think that is the wrong place, so trying again here.  I would delete my post there but don't see an option to when editing it.

 

I am posting here in hopes that an experienced grower can help me out. I had followed the steps in Magic for the Masses, all the way up until the jars were successfully fully colonized, and then I soaked them for about 20 hours, and put them into a fruiting chamber.  The only problem (which I realize now) is that I totally forgot to roll the cakes in vermiculite, so they're just white and fuzzy (not cobweb mold) about 5-7 days later, but no fruit forming that I can see.  Should I just be patient and see if anything happens?  Or sprinkle some clean dry vermiculite on them, or what?  No signs of infection thankfully, and the chamber is still nice and humid and I've aired it a few times a day.  Thought they'd be growing by now, but so far nothing that looks like a head or stem (or pin) and so I'm worried I've messed it up!

 

This time I'm trying grow the Purple Mystic spores, I assumed they'd grow similar to Golden Teacher, but since I messed up that step where I should have rolled the cakes in vermiculite and added some to the tops, I am not sure.  I do not know how critical that vermiculite is for the initial fruiting.  The cakes themselves have a lot of vermiculite and rice flour, but none is currently visible.  Let me know what you all would do, thanks!

 

edit: reading more posts on here, it seems that i failed to add the "casing" layer, that is why they are not fruiting...  so, i am going to sprinkle some on and see what happens, because so far i think nothing is going to happen, they might already be kind of screwed, ugh. 

Edited by Limdull, 13 March 2023 - 11:33 PM.

[ElPirana]

It may depend on how close your cakes are to pinning and how good your fruiting chamber maintains an appropriate humidity. The vermiculite is essentially your casing layer that when misted, helps provide the correct humidity on the cake. But you can grow without, just may not have as good results.

What type of fruiting chamber are you using?

Without knowing more, and based on my experience, you’re probably better off adding the casing.

There are some other methods of growing that seem to me to be easier than the standard go-to (BRF cakes and fruiting chamber). This is one of my favorites:
https://mycotopia.ne...mbers-fc/page-1

[Limdull]

What type of fruiting chamber are you using?

 

 

It is a large tupperware with Perlite on the bottom, and salt water in that, with aluminum foil on top and the cakes on the foil.  It has kept good humidity (walls always have condensation).  I did sprinkle the cakes with some verm last night, I didn't want to disturb them too much by picking them up to roll them, so I figured this is a compromise between doing nothing and doing too much.  We will see.  I have not grown in a couple years, so that link you sent me is new stuff to me.  I will certainly try that method next time, thank you!

[Limdull]

There are some other methods of growing that seem to me to be easier than the standard go-to (BRF cakes and fruiting chamber). This is one of my favorites:
https://mycotopia.ne...mbers-fc/page-1

OK, I did look through this post a little, but no one explained this kinda first step part....   and I am not familiar with it.  Can you break it down really plainly to me?

- 1 myco quart colonized grain spawn
- 2 quarts prepared coir/verm (I still use verm because I like it, but if you use just coir, that’s obviously fine). I use the standard 650g coir, 2 quarts verm, 1 gallon water, bucketed recipe. If you want to make just enough for one of these bags: 80g coir, 2 cups water, 1 cup verm.

 

What is "myco quart colonized grain spawn"?  That sounds like a whole step missing, since I don't think I'm buying that off the shelf anywhere.

And what is "coir"?  I know verm = vermiculite.  But not sure what "coir" is. 

[ElPirana]

“myco quart colonized grain spawn”…I believe is just referring to a quart jar of grain spawn that has been fully colonized with mycelium, ready to break up and add to the bulk substrate.

Coir is short for coco coir. This stuff can be found at pet shops to be used for reptile bedding, or found at plant shops to use as a substrate to grow plants. Coir can be used by itself, or mixed with vermiculite, for growing cubensis mushrooms.

I can give some more info later when I’m not at work lol.

[ElPirana]

Limdull, since you are already familiar with making BRF cakes and have a pressure cooker (I'm assuming you sterilized your BRF jars) then it's not much harder to use grain spawn.  It can be as complicated or as simple as you want, but I prefer simple.  I've tried a lot of different grains and different methods of hydrating, and the easiest I've found so far is to simply use a NSNS tek (no simmer, no soak).  You can add 400ml wild bird seed to a quart jar, add 150ml water, then sterilize for 90 minutes.  It's as simple as that, just make sure after removing from the pressure cooker, shake the jars right away to make sure the grains break up and moisture is spread evenly.  Then shake again maybe 6 or 8 hours later.

 

Once the grain jars are 30% colonized, shake the jars good and let 'em finish colonizing.  Once finished, then you can spawn to bulk (this is when you use coir or coir/vermiculite).  I usually hydrate the coir and sterilize in more quart jars.  You could pasteurize the substrate if you prefer. 

 

If you follow the ziplock bag tek, you can mix the grain spawn and substrate in the bag.  I generally mix them in a separate container and scoop it into the bags.  You can use other containers too if you don't want to use ziplock bags.  I've used Ziploc Twist n Loc containers (or off brands of the same thing) quart size works good.  You can provide enough fresh air exchange by keeping the lid loose, or make holes and stuff with polyfil. 

[Limdull]

Thanks for all the info ElPirana.  The one thing I am not totally sure on is how to add the spores to the wild bird seed after you sterilize in pressure cooker, how do you inoculate the jar? Do you just use a syringe and shoot some in there and recap it?  Or do you do a similar process as the jars with 4 holes in the BRF jars from Magic for the Masses?  In those jars, the guide specified to make sure everything is super clean and have a dry layer on verm at the top of the jars as an additional contaminate filter.  Not sure if you do something like that, or something different?

 

With the holes stuffed with Polyfil that you mentioned at the end, is that used as a filter against bacteria and mold contaminates for the air flow?

 

BTW, back to my original post, an update right now: my BRF cakes finally have some small fruit appearing at the bottom I can see.  I think that would have happened no matter if I'd sprinkled them with verm or not, but I am hoping the top is helped out by having that in place, we will see.

[ElPirana]

Thanks for all the info ElPirana.  The one thing I am not totally sure on is how to add the spores to the wild bird seed after you sterilize in pressure cooker, how do you inoculate the jar? Do you just use a syringe and shoot some in there and recap it?  Or do you do a similar process as the jars with 4 holes in the BRF jars from Magic for the Masses?  In those jars, the guide specified to make sure everything is super clean and have a dry layer on verm at the top of the jars as an additional contaminate filter.  Not sure if you do something like that, or something different?

 

With the holes stuffed with Polyfil that you mentioned at the end, is that used as a filter against bacteria and mold contaminates for the air flow?

 

BTW, back to my original post, an update right now: my BRF cakes finally have some small fruit appearing at the bottom I can see.  I think that would have happened no matter if I'd sprinkled them with verm or not, but I am hoping the top is helped out by having that in place, we will see.

For the grain jars, yes you can just squirt the spore solution into the jar and allow it grow right onto the grains.  You don't want to do this exactly the same as with BRF jars.  So with a grain jar, you will need to have some type of gas exchange, generally different than what you use on BRF jars.  I use tyvek envelopes that I get from the post office as the filter on the lids.  You can also use synthetic filter discs, which can be purchased from some online suppliers or from Amazon, I've used these in the past too, but the tyvek envelopes I get from the post office are free.  You need to drill a 1/4" hole in the lid of the jar, then cut out a piece of filter and glue it over the hole with a high-temperature gasket sealant.  There are a lot of write-ups out there about how to make lids.  It doesn't have to be complicated, just need to allow a very small amount of gas exchange to allow the mycelium to continue growing.  On BRF jars, the reason they tell you to add a layer of vermiculite to the top of the BRF is to keep the BRF sterile....if contaminants land on top of the vermiculite layer, they will not grow nor will they flow down to the BRF below, allowing your mycelium enough time to grow through the cake without the contaminants taking over.

 

If you want to go straight from the spore syringe directly to grains, you can do this.  I have personally been using agar since the end of my very first BRF grow, I think back in 2016.  I was having a hard time buying more spores, and I didn't want my grows to end, so cloning a mushroom was my best option.  I made the jump to using agar right away to attempt some clones.  What I found was that using agar was not nearly as difficult as I anticipated. 

 

Again, I like to keep things simple, so for agar I followed a no-pour agar tek.  This means that instead of preparing the agar  and sterilizing it BEFORE pouring it, I pour it into my jars and THEN sterilize afterwards.  If you don't use a flowhood (I don't, I use a still-air-box) then doing a no-pour agar tek is the way to go IMO.  I squirt just a little spore solution directly onto the sterilized agar, then allow it to grow out on agar first, make  a transfer just to be sure it's not contaminated (and to get more mycelium to inoculate more jars!) and then inoculate my grain jars with agar wedges.  This isn't the only way to do it, but it's my preferred method.   Liquid cultures can work well too, but I don't like to inoculate LC directly from a spore syringe, I generally noc it up from a small agar wedge to reduce chances of contamination.

 

"With the holes stuffed with Polyfil that you mentioned at the end, is that used as a filter against bacteria and mold contaminates for the air flow?"    By the time you get to this point (grain spawn mixed with bulk substrate) your grow is no longer sterile.  The grain spawn will be completely taken over by your healthy mushroom mycelium, and then it will quickly eat through the substrate that you mixed it into.  The polyfil is really a method of reducing airflow.  More polyfil = less airflow.  So you can control the amount of air exchange, and at the same time stop it from just drying out completely, by using the polyfil. 

 

"BTW, back to my original post, an update right now: my BRF cakes finally have some small fruit appearing at the bottom I can see."  That's great!!  I'm hoping you get some fruits out of this grow!  It's so much fun to see those mushrooms grow, it never gets old.  I hope you can share a picture at some point.

Edited by ElPirana, 14 March 2023 - 10:27 PM.

[Limdull]

Thanks again!  That is a lot to consider for the future grows.  I have never used Agar, since it seemed intimidating, but I guess I should educate myself some more and give it a try.  I don't have a flowhood, nor any room to add one so I will look into the still-air-box you mentioned.  The BRF Jars I have done a few times before this and while they work, they seem really slow!  I think these other methods get things going a bit faster, is that right to assume? I also never made spore syringes before but that is something I might as well try also.

 

Also, unrelated info, but one time I had my BRF jars do absolutely NOTHING!  Nothing happened for over a month, no contamination, but no colonization either.  I was stumped since I got the spore syringe from a reputable place that had delivered for me before.  Then, I realized what happened...  I live in a very hot climate, and like a fool, I ordered in the middle of the summer, and my mailbox was probably well over 110 F, and they sat in there for a few hours, so I think they were all dead on arrival.  I don't order during the hot months anymore after that debacle.

[YoshiTrainer]

Hello Limdull, I am not a brave as ElPirana, I worry about the cleanliness of spore syringes. I believe some of the bigger companies use a centrifuge for clean up? From other sources, who knows? You might consider sticking with BRF cakes for now and definitely read up on agar and SAB like ElPirana suggests. Agar opens up many more opportunities for you. For slow jars, maybe too cold, maybe not enough spores? Make sure you shake your spore syringe before you use it, spores do clump. This might explain your one jar that did nothing, maybe it didn't get spores, only water?

Good luck!

[Limdull]

Hello Limdull, I am not a brave as ElPirana, I worry about the cleanliness of spore syringes. I believe some of the bigger companies use a centrifuge for clean up? From other sources, who knows? You might consider sticking with BRF cakes for now and definitely read up on agar and SAB like ElPirana suggests. Agar opens up many more opportunities for you. For slow jars, maybe too cold, maybe not enough spores? Make sure you shake your spore syringe before you use it, spores do clump. This might explain your one jar that did nothing, maybe it didn't get spores, only water?

Good luck!

Thanks, well so far as the time nothing happened, all 9 jars did nothing not just one!  So I think that whole syringe got overcooked in my mailbox, it is very hot in the summer here and just sat there too long.  I think I read somewhere that the spores can die at over like 102-106 degrees F but I'm not sure.  It was likely hotter than that though.

 

However, that got me thinking about temps, and I realized that we have kept our house cold recently, or rather minimally heated. It's been cold outside, and only like 62-64 F inside.  So even thought I had a "heat bomb" water bottle thingy set to 75 F in the BRF cake incubation chamber, I foolishly had NO extra heat for the fruiting chamber, and I have only now realized that is probably why almost nothing was going on.  Soaked a few extra cakes in water, and left some out, to see which do better, but all are forming stuff now that I put it in a closet with a heater to keep it about 75 F.  I think last time I grew was during the summer time here, in which case the house is only cooled to around 75-78 anyway so that worked as ambient heat enough.  But this time, aside from missing the "case" layer, it was just too dang cold.  I am a noob at this stuff and only make it infrequently for myself and very close friends so go figure.  Glad for the help in these online forums though!