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superspawn ratio question


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#1 Leary's Ghost

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 05:19 PM

i want to "superspawn" colonized millet to worm castings and then to straw. i have been trying to get the ratios out of the archives but most logs relate # of jars to lbs of casting to bales of straw, etc.

can one of you experienced guys give it to me in approximate parts? example: 1 part grain to 3 parts castings, then to 4 parts straw? = 1/8 grain + 3/8 casting + 1/2 straw = 100% finished product? i am not saying those #'s are right just an example.

little help?

#2 Bobcat

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 06:08 PM

superspawning generally refers to spawning a substrate to the same kind of substrate. This is actually important because the fungi will alter itself to better handle a given substrate or substrate mix. That is, the recovery time of your spawn will be greater because the spawn will have to get the right enzyme mix a brewing. Of course, that is not to say it won't work, but if you premixed your castings and straw it would be better. That would also solve the castings moisture/consistency/bad spawn issue. But don't let me stop you if you are determined to try this. You may just discover the next great thing for all I know.

Your ratios depend on your skills, experience and comfort level. Generally speaking, 1 part spawn to 5 parts sub is a nice balance between mileage and chance of success. The more spawn you use the greater chance of fast and healthy colonization.

#3 Leary's Ghost

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 10:23 PM

ok, i think i wasnt clear on what i am trying to do. first, i am incubating innoculated millet. i should end up w/ about 5 or 6 full quarts of fully colonized millet (if all goes as planned).

next, i want to mix w/ pasturized worm castings & reincubate until that is fully colonized. question 1 is how much castings?

next, the fully colonized millet/casting mix to pasturized straw. question 2 is how much straw?

i am looking for average amounts here. not trying to stretch it to the limit, or be crazy conservative. what would be reasonable for a begginer?

rather than be lazy & just ask, i dug through the archives. but i found measurements expressed in "so many jars of grain" into "such & such lbs of castings" and then into a certain amount of bales of straw. to me those are apples, oranges, and some other fruit. i was looking for a common measurement from an experienced mycotek. just eyeball it and say something like, "about twice the grain amount in castings" ie 1 part grain into two parts casting. then later, double the size w/ straw (or 3 parts straw). whatever.

am i making any sense here?

#4 golly

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 07:34 AM

Well the moment that you move from a sterile invironment to to the wormpoo - the clock starts ticking...as in trich toc ,,trich toc....The time involved to finally colonize two sucssesive substrates will work against you IMO..
If super spawning, it would be much more reliable to go grain to grain ,then
spawn to the final straw/poo substrate..1 qt jar to 10 more then spawn your
jars at a 1:2 - 1:5 ratio...

#5 Leary's Ghost

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 08:06 AM

is the info in teks like this outdated?:

http://archives.myco...html?1082317318

it seems like both responses to this thred have discouraged this method. i have been tying to research stuff myself first without asking you guys everything but i may be on a track here that others have already found unwise?

thanks for the ratios BTW. would the castings/straw substrate be about 50/50 (1:1). nobody ever seems to say how much straw in relation to the other stuff. they say "a bale" or "half a bale" i bought mine at an arts & craft store, not a farm supply. they are in a rectangular cube, but i am sure there is a big diff between a farm bale and craft bale.

#6 golly

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 08:23 AM

Are you also planning to go outdoors for fruiting...? Cause thats a whole different ballgame ...I can see that working pretty well...
Indoors however, I can only make an educated guess that it could work but would consider it a bit risky...
I would definately split the grow up into several or many seperate trays so u can easily isolate any problems...

#7 Leary's Ghost

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 08:42 AM

i was staying indoors. i have a little 12v fan about the size of a 50cent piece. if i let that run inside the grow tub, think it would help? i have other plans for air exchange, but the fan woulf keep air moving between exchanges

#8 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 09:23 AM

Too much air movement inside the terrarium will cause Hua-Gu (crackly caps) to form. I would suggest putting the little fan on a timer and running it 15 minutes every hour (or two).

#9 Leary's Ghost

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 10:38 AM

:) will do, thanks

#10 Bobcat

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 11:42 AM

I understood what you meant, you were very clear. I will try to answer the question again with greater specificity.

Grain plus worm poop might work, but worm poop has a fine consistency and will go from too dry to mud in no time. At least the stuff I have worked with. You will have moisture and gas exchange issues if you are working with just those two items, imo. And so you will have moisture/consistency probs if it is just grain and poo in the sense that you will be breaking this up again and placing it into another substrate.

Now, I was trying to explain before that it takes a while for mycelium to condition itself from one substrate to another. Thats why when you spawn you want everything to be as optimal as possible. Because while your waiting for your mycelium to leap off from material 1 to material 2, competitors can form. It is this very idea why superspawning works so well, under optimal conditions. Because the leap off time is nill- it's going from material 1 to material 1. In your scenario, you will be spawning material 1 to material 2 to material 3. This will increase your chance of contam greatly. And since your mycelium will have to start and stop, it could be weakened.

Superspawing is not an outdated tek and in fact works pretty good. But, just like any other tek, there are certain rules you have to follow. That said, I will restate that if you want to experiment then go for it. You might find something really cool. But if your depending on this grow for tomorrows dinner, prepare to go hungry.

#11 Bobcat

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 11:45 AM

Well the moment that you move from a sterile invironment to to the wormpoo - the clock starts ticking...as in trich toc ,,trich toc....



Lol, Golly....

#12 Leary's Ghost

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 12:28 AM

i think i see what you mean. thanks for taking the time to be so detailed. not depending on this grow for anything, just having fun exercising my brain. i'll keep a grow log & report back. jars almost colonized; we'll know soon enough.

#13 Bobcat

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 12:41 PM

Cool beans. Just a quick note to why Golly has good advise on this thread. Superspawning could be considered a professional cultivators schtick. This is because not all pros make their own spawn. Seems silly, but true. Instead they buy it at incredible costs. Superspawning allows them to spawn at a rate of 10 to 20% through out the process at the same cost of spawning 2 to 5%. Obviously the latter would be more risky and time consuming. Well, if you make your own spawn and follow Gollys G2G advice, you wouldn't have to worry about such cost!

Leary, this is just general info for the readers and not meant to dissuade you from your experiment. Have fun and be sure to report back!!!!!

Note: I was going to PM Hip about adding superspawning to the glossary, but in TMC, it is definitely two words: super spawning.

#14 Leary's Ghost

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 11:21 PM

Leary, this is just general info for the readers and not meant to dissuade you from your experiment


understood. i may even be using the term incorrectly. i just found this procedure in the old archives & thats what they called it. they made it sound great back then. today, i pasturized my castings and mixed w/ my grain spawn & put back in the incubator. i have pics but was chicken to start a log yet. thought is the whole thing failed, i could just skip the post & quietly move on to something else. hehehPosted Image

#15 wayback

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 07:37 PM

I've read a bit on superspawing in the Japanese edible mushroom culture, except if you are doing a small grow proect then I'd suggest2G measures also. G2G in a glove box will get you 10+ colonized jars per jar in a few weeks.

Fungus seems to love to keep on growing when you catch them in the 1st stages of their development. Spawn on.

#16 Hippie3

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 09:08 PM

is the info in teks like this outdated?:

http://archives.myco...html?1082317318
...


not at all.
that's one nice thing about our hobby,
as lifeforms they don't change much in our lifetime,
some farm mushrooms today in the same fashion as it
was done a century ago, the methods still work like always.
so too major millet's tek will work if closely followed.
it's just a bit more complicated
and isn't really 'superspawning' as some use the term.
but many testify to the effectiveness of worm castings as a poo/dung bulk substrate, and of course straw is much more common.
and major millet was/is quite a talented cultivator,
and his pictures tell the story as well.
so don't let others discourage you much,
chose for your self.

#17 Leary's Ghost

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 03:37 AM

g2g in a glove box will get you 10+ colonized jars per jar in a few weeks.


i noc'ed up 12 jars w/ multispore syringe. by eye, i'd say i mixed about 1 part colonized grain to 1.5 parts worm castings. fairly conservative id say. they are in incubator now. soon, it should either colonize or its a bust. i hope to share impressive pics!

thanks everyone for the encouragement BTW.

#18 Hippie3

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 08:39 AM

btw
you can mix in vermicullite and/or coir to lighten the texture of your castings if needed




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