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Question on Pharmahausca


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#21 entheogen23

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 06:57 AM

I'd start with 150mg. But DMT is by far the friendliest entheogen I've ever encountered so I'm often using 200-300mg. There can be a little nausea for the initial come-up period of 30-45mins but after that it has the cleanest bodyhigh and most beautiful visuals by far.

I'm just evaporating off naptha, are there really going to be carcinogens left in the DMT crystals?



thanks for the dosage info. I read anywhere from 50-300mg. It seems that personal body chemistry, amount of MAO inhibition, and diet at the time all play into the dose. It seems from many reports that fasting before pharmahuasca can actually dramatically inhibit the trip. Some recommend the usual MAOI-conscious diet for 24 hours before and after, but eating a fatty food after ingesting the DMT (small bowl of rice w/ butter, toast w/ butter, some avacado, etc.)

There will only be carcinogens left over if they were there to begin with, and they don't evaporate off with the solvent.

Neither xylene, heptane, hexane, or pentane are technically considered toxic in their MSDS. But this assumes 100% pure product, which only reagent grade solvents are. Many camping fuels (aka naptha) have additives such as anti-rust agents, etc, and while paint grade solvents are likely not to have additives put into them intentionally by the manufacturer, they may still have them since they don't work to try and avoid them.

Freezer preciptation, from what I know, minimizes the risks of such leftovers.

Many kitchen chemists from the earlier teks recommend this test: take 300-500ml of the solvent in question, and evap it off in a clean, clear glass bowl covered with cheese cloth or a t-shirt (to keep out dirt and bugs), and using a fan to speed things. When it is all evapped, see if there is any residue or oily crap left over. If so then you'd end up smoking/ingesting that shit, so don't use that solvent w/o distilling it, or find another solvent.

The more volatile the solvent, the faster and more fully it will evaporate. And keep in mind that many recommend you do NOT use xylene for anything but defatting (with MHRB at least) as it pulls out more than the DMT (aka "jungle spice"), as well as the fact you cannot do freezer precip with xylene from all reports I have seen)

#22 entheogen23

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 07:15 AM

Then again they use xylene and all kinds of poisons to seal wood floors with. If they still had carcinogens on them after they'd evaporated to dry then every time your baby crawled across the floor he'd have carcinogens coating his body.



Actually, some floor sealers can "off-gas" nasty fumes for many months after drying and being considered "done". My brother (who works in construction) has been in houses where people were getting sick from the fumes for a year after the floors were done and that bugs were dropping dead when they flew above them, etc. One such floor covering called "Glitz", which I think they took off the market, was offgassing so bad people were reporting all sorts of neurological problems related to it. Don't trust just since something they use in home construction means it is safe. Hell, formaldehyde is toxic and many materials used in homes (carpet backings, foam carpet pads, MDF, certain glues, some paints, etc.) until very recently contained formaldehyde, and can off-gas for months/years in homes. You still have to specifically look for low or no off-gassing building materials since the US government still hasn't banned the use of formaldehyde yet.

And the comparison with skin contact of any resisdual leftovers from xylene vs. inhaling them in a concentrated form (via evapped spice solvent) are comparing apples to oranges, toxilogically speaking. And as I said in my last post, most people aren't using xylene for the actual spice pulls from MHRB, they are using some variation of "naptha" (which consists of many different fractions of pentane, hexane, heptane, etc.) as well as possible additives and contaminants.

Anyway, I am not trying to lecture here, and of course the risks you take on your own body are totally up to you. Throw caution to the wind if you don't care. It's up to you. But if you choose to share your work with others, please keep this in mind and don't put others at un-needed risk (without warning them of said risks).

I for one, am willing to take steps that help avoid such risks, especially when they are not that hard to do (testing, distilling, etc.)

#23 JBB

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 11:20 AM

There's definately some exploring to be done regarding how best to take pharmahuasca. I'm in the early stage of experimenting so far but a few things I'm noticing are

1) The thing about fasting is correct. Fasting sometimes seems to make the nausea worse. Often after the first 30-45 minutes if you eat some toast and butter it seems to get rid of all the nausea and kick start the trip.

2) Swallowing a gelcap with the DMT seemed to cause a lot of stomach irritation. Something that worked better was holding the freebase under the tongue for a few minutes (make sure you add a little acidic lemon juice to lower the PH as it can burn like hell). It does burn a little but doesn't do any damage - after 5 minutes swallow everything. This seemed to fool the stomach into thinking it was empty so no need to vomit.

Tried the solvent evaporation test and it evaporated clean. It's something I'm still wary of tho - might go the freeze precipitation route.

BTW, you were right about naptha being the best solvent. Naptha forms a lot more dramatic and impressive transparent DMT crystals than toluene or xylene.

#24 entheogen23

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 12:51 PM

for oral, if your solvent evaped off real clean, you are likely fine. The liver can handle things much easier than brain and lungs can! (if you treat it well usually)

thanks for confirm on food timing. I think that is why some people report minimal effects with up to 200mg of NN-DMT freebase orally. Gotta have the gall bladder kick in and spit out some bile to make the magic happen!

Also good to know on gelcap issues. I was reading a few people who just dissolve the freebase in a small amount of Caapi tea, or any other acidic liquid that is safe to drink. I was thinking of a shot glass of orange juice, or H20 with a drop or two of 10% food grade phosphoric acid to ensure dissolution of spice, aiming for pH of 3-4. No more acidic than Coke/soda that way.

#25 Vapor

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 08:35 PM

THAT'S AN IDEA! WHY NOT USE COKE SODA?

#26 JBB

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 04:59 AM

Couple more tips to reduce nausea. Stagger the DMT dose. Take a fairly small initial dose with a peice of toast. Then an hour later take another dose (bit of toast again) then boost it as you see fit.

Taking the whole dose of DMT on an empty stomach is a recipe for throwing your guts up even tho it's more intense and psychedelic

#27 condo_pygmy

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 04:21 PM

A good read on Pharmahusca :eusa_danc
I've yet to try this method but have just ordered Rue seeds and going to make some Harmala extracts, will post methods prepared & amounts consumed with trip reports... :meditate:

#28 tregar

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 08:18 PM

Great, look forward to hearing reports in the future, Condo.

I'm working with pure harmine hcl (not harmaline) at 170mg to 190 mg dose with xtals. So far, have taken 170mg of pure harmine hcl by itself with pleasant relaxed effects--I prefer it to my caapi, which I have taken twice, each time after 2 hours experiencing sea-sickness feelings at the peak and loss of apetite (all of which last for many hours) due to taking too much caapi (more than needed for maoi)...but this is what you have to go thru sometimes when working with caapi--since all the plants vary quite a bit in potency--and it's difficult to find the right amount--takes quite a bit of experimenting....I am happy to have found the same dose of harmine hcl that Jonathan Ott used works perfect for me too with no nausea or sea-sickness (170 to 190mg). It is expensive but well worth it imho. I dined on beef enchiladas with cheese and a 6oz chips and cheese queso with no ill effects at all...having eaten the dinner at 5pm, then took the harmine at 10:30pm.

Rue can also be extracted with hcl (see the ayahuasca forum--old posts by meteor and sync) and it will convert the less desirable harmaline to the more desirable harmine. (Harmine being found to compose 69% of caapi brew, with only traces of harmaline, THH is the second biggest component).

Located some information from Ott's rare book 'Ayahuasca Analogues' that now retails for $80 to $150--doesn't make any sense when the book used to only cost $15 when it first came out:

You won't find any descriptions of beautiful ayahuasca visuals in this book (not at all like Luna & Pablo Amaringo's book 'Ayahuasca Visions' of 48 visions paintings) but he does a pretty good job describing the intensity of effects in relation to dose.

Jonathan Ott is an 80 kg (176 pound) individual.

Here is a rating scale of subjective effects from varying amounts of dmt:

"For Experiment 19, I prepared a potion by three times extracting 3 g harmel seeds in 30% lime juice, yielding a total of 100 ml of extract (estimated content of 60-210 mg B-carbolines; average of 135 mg or 1.7 mg/kg), to which I added 40 mg DMT free base (0.5 mg/kg).

Entheogenic effects of DMT commenced about 1:10 after ingestion and built to a peak by 1:15, maintaining a plateau until 2:15, with the slow descent to 3:00, when effects had more or less disappeared.

On a five-point potency scale, with:

1 = non-entheogenic stimulation
2 = entheogenic threshold
3 = corresponding to a mild trip
4 = moderately-strong trip
5 = technical knockout of the ego

I rated this experiement a solid "3" with 40 mg DMT free base (0.5mg per kg).

this compares with (dmt free base below used orally with extract of 3g harmel seeds):

Experiment 5 = 20 mg DMT (0.25 mg per kg) = corresponded to a "1"
*Experiment 6 = 30 mg DMT (0.38 mg per kg) = corresponded to a "2"
Experiment 19 = 40 mg DMT (0.5 mg per kg) = corresponded to a "3"
Experiment 20 = 50 mg DMT (0.63 mg per kg) = corresponded to inbetween a "3" and a "4"
Experiment 21 = 60 mg DMT (0.75 mg per kg) = corresponded to a "4"

It is at least possible that, while ayahuasca MAO-inhibitors enable DMT to survive the rigors of the gut and be thus rendered active orally, they may exert an anti-DMT effect in the brain, which might help explain why oral DMT is much less active than DMT smoked.

Not only is the sedative effect of the B-carbolines undesirable, but we have at least cause to suspect these compounds of having a paradoxical effect antagonistic to DMT in the brain. The lesson here is that the B-carboline component of ayahuasca should be minimized; that ironically, we need less ayahuasca in our ayahuasca!

*Here is a description of Experiment 6 above (threshold level effects): "There were distinct, but threshold-level, entheogenic effects of DMT commencing 1:10 after ingestion, building rapidly to a peak at 1:15; holding a plateau until 2:00; descending to baseline level by 3:00. There were vivid colored patterns with eyes opened or closed, euphoric exhilaration and general stimulation alloyed with harmel seed sedation, which led me to yawn repeatedly."

***********
He also mentions:

"Indeed, in the aftermath of several of my ayahuasca analogue experiments, I have intentionally dined on cheese sandwiches washed down with beer and chased with chocolate with absolutely no ill effects. It is probable that the transient MAO-inhibition of the B-carbolines in ayahuasca has ceased or greatly diminished by the time the DMT effects are over, but prudence would dictate not ingesting cheese, beer and chocolate during the trip! Generally, short-term fasting is a good idea before taking ayahuasca or any other entheogen. Not only do these drugs effect nausea in some patients, but the fulsome feeling of a stuffed belly is not conducive, shall we say, to a "higher chakra experience." This spiritual factor explains the dietary restrictiions associated with ayahuasca and many other traditional entheogens, which is quite unrelated to the coincidental dietary restrictions associated with medicinal MAO-inhibitors."

***********
I have taken a dose of pure harmine hcl over 200 mg (but would only use about 160 to 190 mg when using with dmt in the future) and had closed eye visions of scenes related to nature and/or culture including animals, architecture, gardens, and people...but the visions were colored in dark greens and blues--they were not bright at all.

And a few tidbits of wisdom concerning the use of pure harmine hcl (especially Sync from the aya forum who has taken real ayahuasca some 120 times, then compared the effects of harmine hcl to caapi):

Sync "in a dream" used 250mg harmine hcl and appoximately 20 cc of tea. Sync quote (2001): "Taken 20 minutes after the harmine and with a small piece of chocolate cake. The results were spectacular to say the least. I believe that taking the harmine in closer proximity to the tea, and having some fat containing food directly on top of the harmine, may have been a significant factor in the power of the experience."

GodofEmptiness quote (2002): "My delusional brother's pit bull has access to pure harmine and harmaline, and found that for his weight, 120 kilos, (it's a big dog), approx 200mg of pure harmine is enough to provide the needed effect and a spectacular dream -- the dream was excellent -- This dreamer would recommend Harmine HCL if available to other dreamers."

Sync quote (2001): "The harmine seems very gentle and clean, far easier on the body and neurons than either of the natural plant sources. The anti-depressant effect with pure harmine is an order of magnitude greater than rue or the vine, and the spirit, well, to say it was present would be an understatement. There also seems to be a greater ability to experience the depths of emotions in a healthy way. I think it may be time for some to concider that the spirit of the plants is not confined to just the plants..."

Delysid quote (2001): "I have used pure harmine in a brew before. The thing is that I did not use a purified psychotria extract just a viridis tea so there was still a ton of sludgy garbage in it. I still received nausea but it was noticably less then with my usual caapi/peganum harmala seed brew, probably due to the lack of unneeded maoi's. As far as the effects go, the only difference that I noticed was the taste...the effects were the same as if I used the vine. Thus I doubt that THH nad hamaline contribute much to the brews effects."

Mckenna "The Invisible Landscape" (1994): "Graph # 7 from Smythies and Antun, "Binding of Tryptamines and Allied Compounds to Nucleic Acid," Nature, 223: p. 1062, Sep. 6. 1969. shows that there is not much difference in the reduction in fluorescence of harmaline (-42) and tetrahydroharmine (-38) in reaction with DNA or RNA, but harmine with its bulkier ring system appears to bind better to DNA (-90). Smythies's model is supported by evidence that 5HT and many of its analogs, including LSD-25, N, N-DMT, and harmine can bond to DNA, RNA, or both."

I have yet to add pure dmt xtals to the harmine or caapi brews.

I wanted to get famailiar with the maoi's on their own first to find my personal level and gauge what it feels like--when taken at the correct dose there is no nausea, no sea-sickness, no significant loss of gait or balance, and no appetite loss--has a slight sedated feeling to it. When too much is taken though, I have found that all the above will manifest.

Benny Shanon has excellent descriptions of ayahuasca visuals and sessions in his book, and these are the types of visions I'm after...I've always liked the longer journey--as well as the realistic three dimensional holographic visions.

#29 ClearLight

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Posted 09 December 2006 - 01:33 AM

We did (our crew) quite a bit of work trying to get this to go.. We used either cappi or rue for the mao inhibitor.. gaakk that stuff is awful to taste ( as liquid). At about :20 min we'd get the soft glow sense that told us the MAOI was working.. then we'd drop the DMT freebase caps. We started at 40mgs (analytical balance used), boosted up by 60mgs to 100mg to try and fully launch.

No one got beyond a mild +++ (+3). We repeated this several times. The psychic, clarivoyant shaman experiences which were always there with Viridis(Hawaiian grown) or Diplot. were not there with the pharma... Something is missing for the full blown entheogenic experience. We never tracked that down, as it could have been various tryptamine analogs or 5meo-dmt in the plant that was not in the pharma.

Our conclusion was that it was a waste of good freebase to pursue this route and a much more complete and total experience was to be had with the botanical path. Not what we expected or wanted, but the reality for our experiments.

re: nausea
We concluded that the extraction methods for the Cappi, especially the shaman method, saponified some of the plant components. That means it turned them into soap! Ingested soap makes you throw up. No one in our crew ever got nausea or vomiting from our preparations, as we made sure the process eliminated the soap! Amazing how a simple error in chemistry on the Shaman's part turns into a whole mythic rationalization around "purging" and "toxins", although wilhelm reich would have told you in the 50's that throwing up cleared the channels! :)

Oh well, one more myth busted..

.

#30 entheogen23

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Posted 09 December 2006 - 02:09 AM

Great post ClearLight! Very good data to know. So the question remains: how do you elimate the soap? (perhaps you have covered this in another post)

I am assuming some variation of filtering/decanting? (such as hummingbird tek, etc)?

thanks much,

-e23

#31 ClearLight

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Posted 09 December 2006 - 02:37 AM

What you do is avoid heat in the maoi extraction. The phenolic compounds in the plants saponify with either heat or base. (also why you get emulsions). Use a cold or coffe warmer temp extract using lemon juice (don't need much, 1/2 lemon or so, we are talking milligrams) on the rue or cappi.

The Traditional Chinese Medicine analysis for this is much like morning sickness, which is too much "Chi" in the central channel caused by the baby. Same thing on some psychdelics (2ct7 being notorious for this), as the Chi activates and starts to blow things loose, the toxic energy will collect in the solar plexus. So downward stroking of the front of the body or pulling away along the ribs from the solar plexus will disperse this, (works for morning sickness as well.. which is where I got it). This applies to those situations NOT caused by soap in your brew, although it'll help there some... it's just 50/50 if your going to heave..

good luck!

.

#32 entheogen23

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Posted 09 December 2006 - 02:48 AM

wow, heard of cold water MHRB extractions, but not Caapi until now! interesting, and makes sense. I assume this lowers the overall yield some? If so, by approx how much? If not, double wow!!

many dreamers may want to know more... :D

#33 ClearLight

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Posted 09 December 2006 - 03:00 AM

Never had a problem with yield.. if the extract is yellow, it's good to go... We always waited the 20min or so for the harmaline to hit, so you know your good to go on the Viridis/MHRB etc. extract. We always wanted the full experience so we weren't going to waste any on a mao system that was not fully inhibited when we dosed.

#34 entheogen23

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Posted 09 December 2006 - 03:12 AM

one more Q: so dosage is about the same as others report for boiled Caapi tea? (30-100g)?

thanks again!

-e23

#35 tregar

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Posted 09 December 2006 - 07:32 AM

I've pondered doing the hawaiian psychotria decanting and filtering , and defat of the leaf, then consuming the leftover leaf powder that is left after evaporation of the acidic plant water along with the harmine hcl if the freebase turns out to be ineffective.

Also, less steps, the leftover plant extract can then be re-dissolved in hot water and drunk or taken in a rolled up balls, etc....but would require becoming familiar with how much of it to use at one sitting since the exact amount of dmt per plant extraction is not known precisely.

Just wondering..if doing a xylene defat on this leaf acidic material, then separating the xylene off in 3 washes from the acidic water in a sep funnel...have done by the way..and the xylene pulls off a lot of yellow oily waxy material...when the acidic water is then evaported in a pyrex dish...will it be safe to consume...assuming all the water evaporates off...will there be any traces of xylene left in the material...just curious??? (any traces of xylene should have all evaporated off too with the water--correct????)

Sync and Meteor at the aya forum used to heavely decant and filter psychotria or mimosa water acidified to ph=4.5 with muriatic hcl acid thru vacuum buchner setups, then evaporate the water off (without a defat) in a pyrex dish to get a plant extract which was then scraped up and re-combined with hot water at a later date for 'instant ayahuasca' that was just as good as the real thing with zero nausea (since all the nausea-causing sediments were filtered out). Best filter I have found is a funnel stuffed with cotton balls (funnel is then inserted into the rubber ring hole on the filter flask (in place of the buchner funnel) with strong vaccum attached) along with decanting for a few days in the fridge.

I suppose a "dry defat" of the crushed up leaf material could be done by soaking the dry material in large jar full of reagent grade petroleum ether with shaking...then filter off the plant material and throw away the spent PE...then thorougly dry the plant material with fan similar to how a proper morning glory defat is done...why do some claim that a defat is best done with an "aromatic solvent" such as xylene? I supposed reagent grade pe would work just as well-- wouldn't it? even though it has no smell...? It leaves no trace of residue what so ever after it evaporates, also evaporates very quickly....xylene on the other hand may leave some residue...will have to do a small experiment with some material in xylene, other in reagent PE, in two seperate jars to see which one picks up the most fats and oils, and to see if any residue is left by the xylene dry defat after evaporation of the xylene from the plant matter

This is a pretty big mystery--Clearlight found that they could not go over a +++ using the freebase at less than 60mg levels..and normal ayahuasca brews have been found to contain only around 30 to 40 mg dmt usually...I wonder what's missing in the entheogenic experience using the pure freebase dmt to make it not the same as using the home-made psychotria brew...if it is best for some reason to leave the plant matter in the hcl form by evaporating off the acidic water (30 grams PV leaves 15 grams of plant matter behind in a pyrex dish after evaporation in my experience after filtering, decanting, then evaporating).. then consuming this plant matter with the maoi part...here are some links from back in the past:

What I would like to do is add a 'dry defat' of the plant matter in the very beginning to try and rid the yellow oily fats and waxes if possible....if it is found that the evaporated hcl plant matter water is the best in effects compared with pure freebase dmt xtals

http://forums.ayahua...&highlight=waxy

http://forums.ayahua...&highlight=waxy

Experiences:

http://forums.ayahua...highlight=faces

http://forums.ayahua...ighlight=jungle

#36 ClearLight

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Posted 09 December 2006 - 03:28 PM

I watched a guy the other nite with a kilo of ephedera extract (that's boiled down and spray dried ephedra), so I'm sure it had everything in there, just put a 1/2 inch of coleman on the top of 1/2 gallon of liquid extract (after it was boiled to go back in solution so it was hot), dump 1/2 lb of NaOH into it! I'm going in my head Agggh he's going to emusify up the creek here and NEVER get it out! Lo, and Behold! NO EMULSION LAYER!!! WTF!!! Then he shakes it.. settles in 1 min.. :amazed: I'm having a really hard time with this as my belief systems shatter on the floor.. thinking about all the gakky emulsion layers i've dealt with.. Then he flips his ghetto sep funnel upside down and pours off the Non Polar, through 5 coffes filters... I'm going "well, surely he has got water in it now..." nope.. dumps it in a jar of Toluene and gases it to get the alkaloids out.. they drop like snow...

No Goo.. No wetness, no gakk.. fluffy fluffy alkaloids..

This Blew My MIND. So I had to sit back and think hard... hmmm..

The addition of nonpolar prior to basification gave an outlet for the alkaloids to move to when released. The excess NaOH had the effect of a huge salt solution pushing all NP soluable alkaloids fast into the NP layer... Not sure why the emulsion didn't arrive, maybe because there wasn't a slow interface to grab them, or the phenolic compounds got busted too fast in that heavy basic solution.. whatever, the result was spectacular...

Haven't gotten a chance to try that with MHRB or other spices but I think it would work as well on that, so a small experiment is in order.. anyone doing anything this weekend, may want to consider a small experiement with a 100 ml's and report back.. we may have something new and fast for extraction here..

#37 tregar

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Posted 09 December 2006 - 09:07 PM

thanks for the reply clearlight, good to hear from you...i read your very interesting erowid report on the freebase oral reports...and really enjoyed it...one of the best reports over there..great work on the multiple experiences.

It is a mystery why the homebrew psychotria leaf brew worked 'better' than the freebase dmt alkaloids--I am trying to figure out why--is it because the dmt is allready bound up and in hcl form in the leaf matter and doesn't need to be salted by the stomach--or is it that the freebase is so small in quantity that it 'gets lost' in the digestive track as opposed to the plant matter which start all kinds of 'digestive processes' with no dmt getting caught up in the gall bladder..etc...It is well known that psychotria leaf is 100% dmt with no 5-meo-dmt or anything else in it..man this is a mystery...if anyone can help solve this please do...Jonathan ott had great effects using the freebase at pretty low dosages but many others do not...then you have to think about taking it with something fattening etc...I'll have to do some experiences with taking the dried plant matter orally (after a muriatic extraction) as compared with the free base xtals to see if I can discern differences, etc..
I think you bring up a very good point about the differences in homebrew tea vs. the freebase crystals.


Anyways, I did the following experiment:

20 grams of the psychotria leaf was put in a jar containing 600 ml of reagent grade petroleum ether (has no smell and also leaves behind zero residue). It was shaken for 20 minutes...the PE worked great--it turned yellow/light green from the fats and oils and waxes it absorbed from the leaf....the reagent PE also let the 'powdered leaf meal' fall immediately to the bottom, there were NO TRACES of stray leaf seen floating around in the PE...I thought this would be the case as the morning glory faq over at erowid states that only 'reagent grade PE' works very well at taking out the non-polar fatty garbage from the seeds with filtering...while leaving no residue behind in the crushed seeds.. used it myself with a MG extraction, then took the crushed seeds (after reagent PE evaporation) and added them to everclear--and consumed the everclear extract with NO ILL EFFECTS. The reagent grade PE gets the fat, oil, and waxes out while leaving a pure product behind....this means the leaf can be dried quickly after the PE soak (and the reagent PE evaporates very very fast) and taken too the next step (only after it is completely dry) of acidification, and simmering, then filtering (thru funnel with cotton balls with vacuum pull), then decanting in the fridge...leaving acidic leaf water contaning the dmt in salt form (bonding to the plant matter) to be evaporated off in a pyrex dish...leaving behind a powder than can be scapped up and recombined at a later date in hot water for 'instant aya'....that works just as well as the real thing....although no one at the aya forum did a 'defat' of their leaf in the beginning...and I wonder if the fats or oils contribute anything to the experience...or work with the gall bladder, bile, etc...

On the other hand, the xylene defat did not work so well--I would never use dried psychotria crude extract that had a beginning dry defat with it...the leaf meal does not all fall to the bottom--and it leaves behind a tiny residue when evaporated...the crude extract from a dry defat with this would not be good to consume at all I imagine...as others on the lycaeum forum who did a dry defat on Morning glory seeds using regular petroleum ether (not reagent acs grade) would feel ill effects for sometimes a whole day from the residue that ended up in the crushed seeds...so makes me never want to try this xylene method.

#38 ClearLight

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Posted 09 December 2006 - 11:57 PM

Sorry just woke up when I posted the defat tek and left the most critical piece out.. i'd edit but no edit button on my screen.. so here's the correction.

My friend doing the ephedra extract is a process engineer. The method he used was observed by a crazed Phd chemist doing a lycopene extration from tomato paste !!! Well, tomato paste is just impossible to extract from, apparently it forms the worst emulsions ever, however this guy got the method...

What he had was a very slow teflon stirrer that pressed the paste against the sides and bottom of the tank. ( This was a 200 gallon stainless steel tank). The stirrer ensured adequate mixing, with the teflon paddles wiping the sides of the tank. The non polar was on top.

What was done, in similar vein with the ephedra was that the boiled extract, now brown goo, had the non polar poured in to provide a top destination layer. Then the 1/2 lb of NaOH was added in. The mix was very slowly stirred with a stainless steel serving spoon, pressing the clumps against the sides and mashing them, a slow figure 8 pattern done in the mix. This was done for 10-15 minutes. The hot mix ( the process began after it came off the stove) was allowed to cool over nite and the non-polar siphoned off. This was repeated 3x with about 1 hr settle time and we got 95% of the alkaloids off with no emulsion layer to deal with during this process.

You could see the oil bubbles appear in the polar layer and pop into the NP during the settle time. The NP turned a very nice purple during this extraction.

Sorry about leaving off the most important part, stirring method... but now it's all down..

#39 JBB

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Posted 10 December 2006 - 04:12 AM

We did (our crew) quite a bit of work trying to get this to go.. We used either cappi or rue for the mao inhibitor.. gaakk that stuff is awful to taste ( as liquid). At about :20 min we'd get the soft glow sense that told us the MAOI was working.. then we'd drop the DMT freebase caps. We started at 40mgs (analytical balance used), boosted up by 60mgs to 100mg to try and fully launch.

No one got beyond a mild +++ (+3). We repeated this several times. The psychic, clarivoyant shaman experiences which were always there with Viridis(Hawaiian grown) or Diplot. were not there with the pharma... Something is missing for the full blown entheogenic experience. We never tracked that down, as it could have been various tryptamine analogs or 5meo-dmt in the plant that was not in the pharma.

Our conclusion was that it was a waste of good freebase to pursue this route and a much more complete and total experience was to be had with the botanical path. Not what we expected or wanted, but the reality for our experiments.

re: nausea
We concluded that the extraction methods for the Cappi, especially the shaman method, saponified some of the plant components. That means it turned them into soap! Ingested soap makes you throw up. No one in our crew ever got nausea or vomiting from our preparations, as we made sure the process eliminated the soap! Amazing how a simple error in chemistry on the Shaman's part turns into a whole mythic rationalization around "purging" and "toxins", although wilhelm reich would have told you in the 50's that throwing up cleared the channels! :)

Oh well, one more myth busted..

.


I'd question whether the MAOI was working. Whether you had enough or whether you waited long enough. For me it takes a minimum of 90 minutes after the Moclobemide before the DMT will start to work. 2 hours is better.

I think there's a few other things that can cause nausea. Taking an MAOI builds up serotonin in your stomach which can lead to nausea and make your stomach more sensitive to the DMT. I always find the nausesa comes after taking the DMT freebase - not from the MAOI.

#40 tregar

tregar

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Posted 10 December 2006 - 04:19 PM

http://forums.ayahua...7&highlight=hcl

what do you think of delysid's post...claims no nausea when he used 200mg pure harmine hcl with 100mg freebase dmt ?




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