Paradox
©
Fisana

Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Question on Pharmahausca


  • Please log in to reply
56 replies to this topic

#41 ClearLight

ClearLight

    Mycophiliac

  • Expired Member
  • 23 posts

Posted 10 December 2006 - 04:43 PM

"...The 2 interesting things learned from this were 1) nausea is almost entirely due to sediments in the plant material, and not strongly related to competition for receptor sites etc, which is contrary to what I have posted on this subject in the past. ..."

Sounds like what we discovered as well, although I came to the conclusion by reseaching what caused emulsions when basified, and they determined it empirically.

Looks like it all agrees... ( also why I don't go do ayahuascaro raves when they show up.. nauseating brew, under dosed, and someone trying to drive my trip with songs...:eusa_snoo )

#42 reverend trips

reverend trips

    Former Member

  • Banned Member
  • 2,349 posts

Posted 10 December 2006 - 07:07 PM

I've learned a lot in this thread, and I think it has earned a place in the vaults.

I'm going to go ahead and tag it!

*archive material*

#43 JBB

JBB

    Mycophiliac

  • Expired Member
  • 55 posts

Posted 11 December 2006 - 05:41 AM

http://forums.ayahua...7&highlight=hcl

what do you think of delysid's post...claims no nausea when he used 200mg pure harmine hcl with 100mg freebase dmt ?


All depends on the person. Some people can drink plant sediment ayahuasca and not be sick. Pure harmine hcl always gives me intense nausea.

Moclobemide is a lot cleaner but even with moclob, when you add the DMT freebase on an empty stomach you can be violently sick.

Eating at the same time as dropping the DMT freebase seems to decrease the nausea somehow.

#44 tregar

tregar

    Mycotopiate

  • Free Member
  • 640 posts

Posted 11 December 2006 - 05:56 PM

I learned quite a bit too from this thread.

This makes me lean more towards the 'botanical path' as Clearlight mentioned by using the sediment & nausea free dried ayahuasca extracts (re-combined in hot water) as the dmt-containing part of the brew for the future as opposed to freebase experiments...using harmine hcl at 170 to 190mg or a caapi brew for the maoi containing part. When I use harmine hcl at the proper maoi-inhibiting personal dose for me (below 200mg) then I don't experience nausea or sea-sickness--just a relaxed sedated feeling--Jonathan Ott also mentioned in his book that he never experienced nausea from harmine hcl in any of his pharmahuasca experiments when used at levels at or below 188mg. I have experienced sea-sickness and loss of appetite when using harmine by itself at levels above 240mg (along with having closed eye visuals in dark green and blues of a grand ship on the ocean, jungle animals, ufo, people, various architectural forms with flowers & gardens.)

Foaf plans to take the Hawaiian psychotria (believed to be much stronger than peruvian by everyone I've talked with) and simply do the typical ayahuasca extraction with ph=4 water, then filter it thru vacuum buchner holding funnel with cotton balls, then decant the water in the fridge, then pour off the muriatic acidic water and evaporate it down to a powder which has worked hundreds of times for members over at the aya forum--particularly Sync and Meteor. 30 grams of psychotria reduces down to about 15 grams of plant matter after the filtering, decanting, and evaporation.

This plant matter powder is nausea free and can be taken with 170 to 190 mg pure harmine. The re-constituted ayahuasca powder in hot water is reported to be "as good as ayahuasca" gets by Sync. Sync has used the hcl reduction method down to crude powder some 100 times, and reports never having had a dud or purge due to filtering out the sediments from the brew which cause the nausea. The dried powder can be re-constituted with 100ml of very hot water at a later date for an 'instant ayahuasca'. A pinch of tartaric acid can be added to the water to acidify again slightly, speeding up the absorption in the body.

Some of the 'dried crude aya powder' will need to be analyzed in a small glass cylinder --- re-acidified with muriatic water, defatted about 3 times, then basified and extracted a few times with naptha to see if any xtals result--to see if it is indeed active as opposed to the peruvian.

#45 Vapor

Vapor

    Mycophiliac

  • Expired Member
  • 93 posts

Posted 11 December 2006 - 11:32 PM

This entire thread is facinating and very informative. It has stimulated the following question:

If orally routing free based DMT is going to convert it back into a salt then why bother with the free base? Wouldn't it be a much more direct and easy route to offer the stomach a DMT salt derived from the relatively simple and easy Minskie ( probably not spelled right) method used to extract crystals out of Syrian rue for use as a MAO? I don't see why this tek wouldn't work on mimosa or acadia. The product should be relatively clean of tannins and could be easily purified further if necessary. The magic could be extracted this way without any nasty assed chemicals. The aftermath material can be run through an A/B or Vortex type straight base extraction in case there is spice left over from the salted extraction.

Naturally, I'm not encouraging any illegal activity. I'm just curious and posing a question for creative thinkers on an open forum.

I'm no scientist or chemist but the entire thing seems to make sense. Anybody care to blow holes in this, verify it, or whatever?

#46 condo_pygmy

condo_pygmy

    Mycotopiate

  • Expired Member
  • 480 posts

Posted 12 December 2006 - 06:53 PM

Here's a good Harmala micro extraction tek:
http://forums.ayahua...pic.php?t=10766

Posted Image

#47 Vapor

Vapor

    Mycophiliac

  • Expired Member
  • 93 posts

Posted 12 December 2006 - 09:18 PM

Thanks Condo Pygme,
That's roughly what I was talking about...actual the classical Mansky. But the principals are identical.
Well then, the question remains. Will this work on mimosa or acadia for a product that is an orally psychoactive salt when imbibed with a MAO?

#48 JBB

JBB

    Mycophiliac

  • Expired Member
  • 55 posts

Posted 13 December 2006 - 04:34 AM

This entire thread is facinating and very informative. It has stimulated the following question:

If orally routing free based DMT is going to convert it back into a salt then why bother with the free base? Wouldn't it be a much more direct and easy route to offer the stomach a DMT salt derived from the relatively simple and easy Minskie ( probably not spelled right) method used to extract crystals out of Syrian rue for use as a MAO? I don't see why this tek wouldn't work on mimosa or acadia. The product should be relatively clean of tannins and could be easily purified further if necessary. The magic could be extracted this way without any nasty assed chemicals. The aftermath material can be run through an A/B or Vortex type straight base extraction in case there is spice left over from the salted extraction.

Naturally, I'm not encouraging any illegal activity. I'm just curious and posing a question for creative thinkers on an open forum.

I'm no scientist or chemist but the entire thing seems to make sense. Anybody care to blow holes in this, verify it, or whatever?


Without a synthetic lab extraction you can't get DMT HCL as powder - all you get is sticky yellow oil that's impossible to work with. It won't form into powder like DMT freebase.

#49 Vapor

Vapor

    Mycophiliac

  • Expired Member
  • 93 posts

Posted 13 December 2006 - 06:27 AM

JBB,
Thank you for the response.
On a different thread I questioned if a dry wood extraction would work using butane forced through a pipe packed with dry material as is apparently the case for making oil from kind bud or residuals from it. No one responded to the thread. Would it work, what would you get ( I presume an oil) and would that be orally active without working it further? As far as I know others have had this thought too butI'm not aware of anyone trying it. I certainly am not going to but I am tripping on the idea. It's the inquisitive mind thing kicking in and then it bugs me until I get information.
Thanks again for the come back. I can now put DMC HCL to rest.

#50 tregar

tregar

    Mycotopiate

  • Free Member
  • 640 posts

Posted 13 December 2006 - 08:46 PM

And an easy muriatic adjusted water extraction to convert the less desirable harmaline in the seeds to the more desirable harmine (major component of caapi):

http://forums.ayahua...ght=hcl peganum

Crude nausea-free orally active ayahuasca extract from adding plant material to hot muriatic adjusted water ph = 4 to 5 (all in a crockpot with ceramic lining) along with vacuum filtering of the poured off cooked solution while hot (funnel with cotton balls for a depth filter), decanting in fridge (optional), simmering down on the stove to a few hundred milliliters (corning ware pot, not metal) then evaporation down to the re-constitutable powder (using a pyrex dish & fan) to be added to a cup of hot water at a later date for 'instant ayahuasca' reported to be as 'good as ayahuasca gets' by Meteor and Sync: (this method used by Sync over a hundred times):

http://forums.ayahua...&highlight=waxy

Meteor:

What I do know for sure is that HCl will leave all the waxes, oils, and fats, and the compounds they contain behind. And when you consider that the prime compounds that make Ayahausca what it is are all acid soluble the HCl approach should work better than all of the other recipies containing organic acids.


Experiences with harmine run 3 to 4 hours, experiences with harmaline run 5 to 6 or so hours.

#51 tregar

tregar

    Mycotopiate

  • Free Member
  • 640 posts

Posted 14 December 2006 - 08:07 PM

I have found the use of a deluxe foodsaver V2420 (locally at stores) to work very well as a vacuum source (canister attachment hose) for the buchner funnel. It will create a very strong vacuum that will vacuum filter your ayahuasca solution thru a funnel with cotton balls in no time flat. Without a vacuum source, the solution will not filter. I found this gets out 90% of the sediment. After putting the 1/2 gallon jar of filtered plant water in the fridge, after about 2 or 3 days, it will collect a very small layer of more sediment, that is left behind. Pour off the water from the jar (leaving the bottom layer of sediment behind -- it will stick to the bottom of the jar) into your 2.5 liter corning ware pot on the stove and simmer it down to a workable quantity (it helps to have a fan pointed at the dish on the stove to help evaporate the water quickly) to then add the last few hundred milliliters to your pyrex dish for evaporation with a fan blowing over it on a table.

Using psychotria viridis, about 30 grams of starting plant leaf reduces down to about 10 to 12 grams of crude extract for oral use. I prefer to do 200 grams at one time to get an extract containing multiple doses. The extract color is brown and smells sort of like honey and plastic. foaf plans to take some of this crude extract material from different batches and put it into a 250ml 'genie bottle', re-acidify it with hcl to ph=4, then defat 3 times with 50ml of xylene, then basify it to ph=13.5, extract it 3 times with 50ml of naptha, evaporate down to 1/10 then put in the freezer to see how much crystallizes out so can gauge just how potent the original plant material is--thus knowing the approximate amount of dmt contained per gram of crude extract material. How better to know just how potent your plant material is for oral use. I have read that 20 grams of hawaiian psychotria was an excellent visual experience for NapoleanBlownapart over at the aya forum -- this would amount to about only 8 grams of crude extract or so.

Assuming the freebase is not very useful orally unless consumed at quantities over 60 to 100mg -- or that it still lacks in quality to an actual ayahuasca experience, this hcl extracted & filtered material may be the way to go...since it has been found to retain the 'same experience' as brewed ayahuasca minus the nausea and squirts, as well as being found 'cleaner' and 'more electric'.

What are ayahuasca visuals like? Here's an example...

from Benny Shanon 'Antipodes of the Mind':

The following is a slightly edited synopsis of what a person saw during his first two sessions with the brew. I shall note that while the report is rich in details, the intoxication experienced was not especially strong; by the present structural typology, all items seen would be characterized as single, simple images:

Animals. Those seen most frequently were serpents, felines, and birds. Some of the serpents were ornate, like Chinese dragons; the felines included tigers and black pumas; the birds included parrots, peacocks, and toucans. Also seen were a galloping horse, dragons, monsters of all sorts, and evil beasts; with some of the latter blood was associated.

Many human persons were seen. Amongst these were Indians and a sensuous Caribbean dancer. A person present in the session appeared to have the face of a gorilla with the beak of a bird.

Palaces and mansions. Amongst the buildings seen were skyscrapers and pyramids. Also seen were interior decorations of buildings. These were very exquisitely ornamented; many were gilded.

Cities. Many different ones were seen; some had futuristic architecture.

Landscapes. These included forests, open deserts, river scenes, and scenes under water. Associated with the latter were corals and 'tornadoes offish'. Overall, the landscapes had an ambience of serenity and silence.

Especially frequent were disembodied eyes; many of these pertained to big cats. Other items noted: an Indian in a boat, an old woman turning white and transforming into a young girl, cars of the 1950s that were colourfully painted in a style which was 'rather kitsch', streams of gold.

The trees outside looked like goddesses.

Significantly, the items reported by this informant include all those that are typical of Ayahuasca visions. As such, this report, I find, is a good example supporting the cultural non-specificity of these visions."



#52 condo_pygmy

condo_pygmy

    Mycotopiate

  • Expired Member
  • 480 posts

Posted 17 December 2006 - 11:01 AM

What i did was the Harmala hcl extraction tek from this link:
http://forums.ayahua...ght=hcl peganum
as the florecent yellow tea simmered down to about 300ml's, i switched to the Seasalt tek & extracted alittle over a G of harmala sands, i then sampled a little bit of this sandy extract waited a 1/2 hr & sprinkled a little dab of elf spice xtals into a glass of 7UP. Within 45minutes the effects kicked in Posted Image No nausea at all in a full color 2hr 3D show... Posted Image

#53 tregar

tregar

    Mycotopiate

  • Free Member
  • 640 posts

Posted 19 December 2006 - 08:17 PM

Excellent work condo! Most exciting news we've heard in months on this subject.

Sync and Meteor had also used 1 gram of the said hcl extract many times with their dmt-containing plant tea (psychotria or mimosa) with excellent results.

Can you describe the visuals a little more?

Closed eye show? Did it consist of geometries or turn into actual scenes?

Were the xtals pretty clean? What would you estimate as a dab in milligrams?

How was it similar/dis-similar to smoked dmt?

I'm a couple weeks away from my harmine hcl + hawaiian psychotria extract experiments.

#54 condo_pygmy

condo_pygmy

    Mycotopiate

  • Expired Member
  • 480 posts

Posted 20 December 2006 - 12:02 PM

Were the xtals pretty clean? What would you estimate as a dab in milligrams?

How was it similar/dis-similar to smoked dmt?

I'm a couple weeks away from my harmine hcl + hawaiian psychotria extract experiments.


the xtals were washed in a sep funnel & recystallized, swim dropped 100mg's into a glass of 7UP, the onset was slow & mellow, the peak compared to about 40mg's smoked...:eusa_thin

#55 tregar

tregar

    Mycotopiate

  • Free Member
  • 640 posts

Posted 20 December 2006 - 05:49 PM

Very interesting!

Would you say the visuals were like 'ayahuasca' visions or were they the same types of visuals you experienced when smoking spice?

Just trying to figure out if the visions are different in any way with one method compared to the other.

After viewing the paintings of Amaringo and reading Shanon's book, what seems to pervade Ayahuasca visions are not only animals but cultures and their expressions--cities, landscapes, gardens, buildings, palaces and temples, artefacts and works of art, historical scenes, royality and religious figures, rites and rituals--and the interaction between nature and culture...among some of the 'other places' mentioned by Shanon include bars and cabarets, often lascivious and somewhat lewd, and amusement parks and circuses...and also scenes of people--usually groups of women--dancing are very frequently seen. In some people's visions, ufo's and aliens are seen. Benny reported that after taking it over 140 times, he and all the people surveyed reported never seeing the exact same thing twice.

Did you see anything related to culture/nature by any chance?

#56 condo_pygmy

condo_pygmy

    Mycotopiate

  • Expired Member
  • 480 posts

Posted 20 December 2006 - 06:03 PM

I've never tried ayahusca, however the peak consisted mostly of merging colors, music enhanced the visuals, just seemed to blend real well, could have up'ed the dose a bit more i supose.

#57 tregar

tregar

    Mycotopiate

  • Free Member
  • 640 posts

Posted 20 December 2006 - 07:54 PM

Sounds like a great experience! Thanks for the detailed breakdown.

Beginning on page 2 of the 6 page excellent discussion in the link below with ~roo and ~leprechaun are some descriptions of the visions they experienced with ayahuasca....also some good comparisons were made between ayahuasca and shrooms..with aya the 'visions were far more lucid, mature, complex, straightforward and serious' :

 

[broken link]

~leprechaun:

After the geometrics I have a very intense visionary phase which lasts about 30-60 mins. then the trip rapidly subsides to a low level for a few hours and I go to bed.


~roo:

Ayahuasca is not as bad as you think it is. I would consider it to be "sort" of like a "bemushroomed" trip, but far more lucid and mature. The visuals are somewhat like those encountered with the mushroom, but far more complex. I have seen the usually "jungle" type visions, complex geometric vision, visions of "cities", and visions not unlike those painted by Alex Grey. The major difference I have noted is that the experience is much more strait forward and serious.


~leprechaun:

I'm glad you agree with the purple and blues and have seen cities and jungle stuff too. Have you seen lots of silver and gold? That is the key thing that Aya has above shrooms.

I agree with the geometrics being far more complex,colourful and vivid. Shrooms can be very spiritual but often they can fall flat. Ayahuasca seems to always be profound and spiritual, and the visions have a feeling of depth and reality that shrooms could never give.

I can't help thinking back at some amazing silver chrome corkscrew visuals I had, embedded in kaleidescope colours. So damn vivid it was almost as if I had my eyes open looking at some computer screen playing these visuals.

They are so solid and in-your-face, so clear. You can look around and examine them. If you try that with shroom visuals they disappear.

Have you ever heard music, something like slow carribean barrel drums or soft tonal gongs? I'm sure I heard some other musical stuff but I can't remember the detail.

Have you ever felt like you were changing into someone else or looking through someone else's eyes?

Do you usually get a geometric phase of tripping first which then develops into the proper visionary trip?


~redmonk:

Many of the beautifully detailed descriptions of particular visions are worth the price of the book alone .

I agree, Benny Shanon's book is remarkable.

Edited by Sidestreet, 06 September 2015 - 08:06 PM.





Like Mycotopia? Become a member today!