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UN FLIPPIN BELIEVEABLE!! [ stall reversed by FAE ]


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#1 dbzeroone

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 08:52 PM

After some great success in the past, I took a little break from the hobby and now I'm having a hell of a time getting anything going! Either I'm doing something very wrong or I had incredible beginners luck in the past!

I've recently thrown out 3 batches (Batch = 12 quart jars) of WBS and rye because they're just not doing anything! I'm using quart jars with straight grain to eventually use in a Rez type setup.

Temp is perfectly consistent at 84?f. Depending on the sub (WBS or rye) I'm using either hippies quick WBS tek or the standard rye prep tek and following them to the letter. My jars lids each have 2 silicone ports for inoculation (one for the airport) and are sealed tight. I am not usine any tyvek or polyfill for venting as the atmosphere here is extremely dry and I'm concerned about moisture loss. Contams are not a problem... generally non existent.

When I start from syringes or LC, I get germination in the usual 4-5 days and then after a few days of growth, nothing. Six of the jars in this last batch were inoculated with LC and they started off strong, but when they achieved about 40%, I shook them GENTLY... rolled them around really... to distribute the mycelium and BAM! NOTHING! It's as if I cooked 'em in the sun or something! They just completely cease to progress! The six jars that were inoculated by spore syringe have little spots of growth that looks healthy, but hasn't moved in weeks.

Last week I considered that perhaps I just didn't have enough moisture in the jars, so I injected 10cc of distilled H2O in the jars I shook and it made absolutely no difference.

So I have 2 suspicions. First, I suspect the possibility that the mycelium is suffocating in the tightly sealed jars. Is gas exchange mandatory on a jar approx. half full of grain or is the air space in the jar enough? I don't recall accounting for gas exchange in the past, but it may have been that beginners luck. ;)

Second, I suspect that my very hard water here (high lime content) may be having an adverse effect on the mycelium. What's the conventional wisdom on hard water? What about water pH?

I'm planning on starting over... again... but we all know what the definition of insanity is and I don't want to repeat this nonsense! Any and all suggestions are appreciated! Thank you all!

#2 Soliver1

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 09:00 PM

Sounds to me like your mycelium needs to breathe some. Use bottled water (it's cheap compared to your time) and if you mycelium is growing well before you shake it and stopping after you shake it . . . perhaps you should stop shaking it.

Generally, injecting water into partially colonized jars is a bad idea. Sounds to me like you have a case of "why aren't you growing when I give you so much attention" syndrome... mycelium likes to be left alone for the most part, especially when it's young. You probably did better before because you did less - now that you're more confident in trying other methods to "improve" your grow, you're actually smothering it.

Go back to your original tek and follow it to the letter - don't try to help too much or you'll be doing it all again in a month :)

for what it's worth, we've all been there, I think it's a stage that all growers pass through after one or more successful batches... sometimes it's hard not to stir the pot :)

soliver
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#3 dbzeroone

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 09:33 PM

Thanks for your input Soliver.

Believe me when I say that I sure ain't over-lovin' those jars!;) I'm bordering on "neglect tek"! I added the water to the third batch after they sat for a couple weeks with no progress, and honestly, I doubted it would help. Safe to say there's no need to try that again.

As far as shaking goes, I thought that was standard procedure for grains in this type of setup in order to evenly distribute the mycelium? Is it usually just not necessary?

I brought home a jug of distilled water for $0.70! I think you're right and it would be worth it at 10x the price!

So is moisture loss generally not a concern when using tyvek?

#4 slide

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 09:57 PM

Shake your grain jars once after they have colonized 50% then let them finish colonizing.

#5 Vapor

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 10:10 PM

They like you to talk to them.
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#6 golly

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 10:22 PM

The only jars i have seen that died after shaking , contained bacteria..
A half full grain jar will easily colo without a filter ,thats the only way i do em, although i usually loosen the lid at 90%...
The LC step is adding some risk imo ..Try direct MS syringe for better odds.

#7 Hippie3

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 08:12 AM

air is kinda funny.
i think even though there is air in the jars
the lack of FAE is why your jars might be stalling out.
i just poke a hole and glue some tyvek over it for FAE .
at least that would rule out the possibility of that problem.

#8 cheshire

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 08:57 AM

and if your mycelium is growing well before you shake it and stopping after you shake it . . . perhaps you should stop shaking it.


made me lmao :rasta:

#9 siam_jim

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 09:19 AM

seems like you need more oxygen, did your first sucess jar had the same amount of grains as the ones that failed? FAE is important. try like hip siad or use his air port tek...


siam

#10 dbzeroone

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 10:11 AM

Thanks for all the input everyone!

I'm getting convinced that FAE may fix the problem. If it only takes a small hole, then moisture loss should be a non-issue. Of course I'm going to use strictly distilled H2O from now on as well.

I'm going to see if I can resurrect the remaining stalled jars by getting 'em some air. I'll keep y'all posted on what happens.

#11 dbzeroone

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Posted 10 December 2006 - 09:20 PM

I had these jars of rye with EQ from LC. Basically they grew normal for a few days, then when I shook em, growth completely ceased. That was three weeks ago.

I don't have any before photos, but believe me when I tell you that after shaking, the jars looked like they were full of cooked grain with nothing else. They looked as dead as dead can be.

Anyway, yesterday morning I took 'em in the glovebox and as quickly and cleanly as possible replaced the sealed lids with tyvek squares.

36 HOURS LATER THIS IS WHAT I HAVE!! I AM AMAZED AT HOW QUICKLY AND STRONGLY THEY TURNED AROUND! :headbang:
http://mycotopia.net...=1&d=1165803491

The lesson here is... Them jars need to breathe, man!!

Big thanks and high fives all around to everyone who offered advice! :bow:

Attached Thumbnails

  • resurrected.jpg


#12 siam_jim

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Posted 10 December 2006 - 10:11 PM

ah see they do need the O2....good you took the advice.


siam

#13 golly

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Posted 10 December 2006 - 10:53 PM

That's pretty dramatic ,after 3 wks....glad it's working out for ya...

#14 python

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Posted 11 December 2006 - 12:33 AM

respiration is key................nice work

glad everything has turned around for ya

#15 Hippie3

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Posted 11 December 2006 - 09:52 AM

quite the turn-about there.
nicely done.
:bow:

#16 dbzeroone

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Posted 11 December 2006 - 03:27 PM

Hey, Thanks to the Mod (or Admin) who merged these two posts. In my excitement I didn't think my subject line through very carefully :)

#17 Soliver1

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Posted 11 December 2006 - 04:06 PM

Sweet - glad that worked out for ya!

we all need a little space to breathe :)




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