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Big Fuzzy Balls: A Novel Concept for the Mass Spreading and Naturalizing of Mycelium


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#21 Hippie3

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 11:39 AM

...
So I don't think its a ridiculous idea to think that just throwing dowels about a wooded lot would create at least a 5% success rate- without the need for create specific beds. Or just by letting them float downstream. But I will see, I guess.


i think that's very optimistic,
i'd guestimate it's much more like
a 0.05 % success rate

#22 Bobcat

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 11:57 AM

Yeah, perhaps your correct. Or perhaps somewhere in between. But I dunno, that would be expecting a failure of.... 99.95%. That may be too low- but always better to plan conservative and think about the worst case scenario than plan for the best.

Still, that can be over come by sheer numbers. One could still expect the growth of 5 patches if 10,000 dowels were thrown at .05% (10,000 * 0.0005). Hmm, perhaps 1% is a better goal. If one could find approx 100 patches for every 10,000 dowels (just to put a number on it), it would be a success.

On the other hand, for five patches after that many dowels, it may be a wiser investment to go out and build 10 patches. So that would not be a success.

#23 Mindzpore

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 12:14 PM

hmm sounds good, so now i have to get some ps. cyanescens spores then.... well, well, if it benefits the shroomers of the world, i will.


#24 Hippie3

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 12:19 PM

xpect the growth of 5 patches if 10,000 dowels were thrown


to me that sounds pretty good for natural/random selection.
nature doesn't even get 1 patch per 10,000 spores.
many organisms that rely on spores/seeds use millions to
ensure success at reproduction.
it does not greatly surprise then to think
that intelligent installation of patches would offer a
much higher success rate.

#25 Mindzpore

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 12:34 PM

to me that sounds pretty good for natural/random selection.
nature doesn't even get 1 patch per 10,000 spores.
many organisms that rely on spores/seeds use millions to
ensure success at reproduction.


well one reason for this is of course that spores get spread over a large area, and have to coincede with other spores, it would not surprise me if ten milion spores or more were spread for each new colony. So by spreading colonized material this step is skipped.

but pherhaps just dumping a bunch of spawn in a stream isnt' the way to go (although it couldnt hurt to try some).

it does not greatly surprise then to think
that intelligent installation of patches would offer a
much higher success rate.

exactly, although im not sure of what you mean by "install". one might dig a hole and prepare like a proper outdoor grow, or just walk around and drop spawn in suitable places. both methods may work (but one requres a whole new level of effort, determination and planning.

personally i think taking a walk with a backpack full of dowels, dropping some here, some there, drilling and hammering them into dead trees would be a nice way to spend a couple of afternoons. :rasta:
while digging and installing a "patch" somewhere in the middle of the forrest, seems more like a hassle.

#26 Hippie3

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 12:45 PM

personally i think taking a walk with a backpack full of dowels, dropping some here, some there, drilling and hammering them into dead trees would be a nice way to spend a couple of afternoons.


probably true, the trip itself is always the only real point.

#27 Hippie3

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 12:46 PM

So by spreading colonized material this step is skipped.


still that ignores the fact that mycellia is much more fragile
not to mention being food for many lifeforms
both factors would lower the success rate

#28 Bobcat

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 01:04 PM

Depending on what your goal and patience level is, a very low success rate may not be that bad. While the cost raises, the effort to disperse 10,000 dowels is not much greater than to disperse 1,000. I mean, your already out there and all. And if you can get 5 naturalized patches.... well, that doesn't suck.

Plus some of those will have survived not just by chance, but by strong strain, so you will be creating good patches. These could grow large, possibly even connect and grow exponentially.

Speaking of cost, one would not have to use prepared dowels or balls. Even untreated lumber, cut up into small chunks would work fine. Better perhaps since mushies like that wood glue stuff.

For a patient person, it still might be a good plan. If it works.

#29 Guest_greysRDbest_*

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 01:29 PM

i dont know very much at all about growing mushrooms < but ive been reading> , however i do know alot about finding and ID'ing wild ones. I have successfully "seeded" many woods and areas of my own yard just by throwing out caps of "leftovers"...edibles that didnt make it back to the kitchen in good shape...or specimen i held captive to study under a microscope or take a spore print with. i can honestly say that ive made a woods that never produced lobster mushrooms a lobster mushroom hotspot just by this lowtech method alone. so either way.....spore or mycelial dispersal....i think it will work on some level. good idea bobcat:eusa_clap

#30 TVCasualty

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 06:31 PM

Ok, so no one liked my idea about scattering zillions of spores from a hot air balloon (or whatever) or installing a ring of patches around a targeted habitat, so how about the quick'n'dirty liquid culture method?

I have actually used this method, and posted about it before. It basically consists of floating caps (gills/pores down) in a few gallons of water with a tablespoon of molasses and a pinch of salt mixed in. Soak caps ~8hrs, toss caps in woods, wait overnight, put liquid in garden sprayer and spray suitable habitat. This has worked amazingly well for me with chicken-of-the-woods and an unidentified species of foxfire (that was not an Armillaria sp., which are parasitic), among others. Seems to me that spores of multiple species could be mixed in th bucket- some hardwood and some softwood decomposers so whatever the juice lands on can potentially be colonized.

One thing I just thought of- there needs to be an absolutely precise ID of the species being propagated to avoid the awkward embarassment of accidentally spreading a blight!

Another (final) thought- how about sclerotia? For the species that form them, of course, they might be a great compromise. Stamets even suggested aerial 'bombing' of recently-burned forest with Morel sclerotia to jump-start the area's recovery....

#31 Bobcat

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 06:47 PM

i dont know very much at all about growing mushrooms < but ive been reading>


:eusa_clap :headbang: :eusa_clap

Thanks! Time well spent, btw! Good luck in your future endeavors- hope to see a grow log soon!

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 07:17 PM

i stayed here because it was so informative ,and to be honest everyones so inventive i want to see whats next. i seriously am trying to learn this to transfer this kind of growing to edibles. and teach it to a few other guys like me who have chased the things in the woods for 20 yrs. you have no idea how thrilled some of these ppl would be just to be able to grow a favorite type just maybe in the wintertime when that particular mushroom isnt out for the picking.anyway thanks in advance everyone, ive really read alot of great material here.

#33 Bobcat

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 08:05 PM

Ok, so no one liked my idea about scattering zillions of spores from a hot air balloon (or whatever) or installing a ring of patches around a targeted habitat, so how about the quick'n'dirty liquid culture method?


Sorry, didn't see where you posted this in this thread! ;) Scattering spores is cool and people print shirts and what not to create spore trails. Wouldn't bet on finding a patch created by said spores tho. A ring of patches is a great idea and similar to Stamets' bunker spawn idea (that he goes on to discuss in M.R. after explaining the tek.). This would be similar to that- minus the creation of beds and bulk spawn.

That LC method is also neat and also discussed in M.R. Stamets says that guy who wrote Dune wildcrafted chanterelle beds that way with good success. (He also said Dune is resplendent with Psilocybe symbols (azure eyes, spice = spores, becoming enlightened, etc)). But again you would be dealing with something very unpredictable. These teks would seek something more with better results- as has been discussed. But its still an easy and cool way to do things.

One thing I just thought of- there needs to be an absolutely precise ID of the species being propagated to avoid the awkward embarassment of accidentally spreading a blight!


Yeah, but the chances of someone knowing how to clone or start from wild spores and end up with dowel spawn will probably not be just going outside and pick just any mushie. Plus blight mushies are few.

Another (final) thought- how about sclerotia? For the species that form them, of course, they might be a great compromise. Stamets even suggested aerial 'bombing' of recently-burned forest with Morel sclerotia to jump-start the area's recovery....


kewl!

#34 TVCasualty

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 09:14 AM

Scattering spores is cool and people print shirts and what not to create spore trails. Wouldn't bet on finding a patch created by said spores tho.


Even tonnage of spores? If 2 pounds contains approx. 1 trillion, then a ton is about a quadrillion spores. If a successful bed is about as likely as winning the lottery, then this seems to be the way to buy the most tickets. Putting some on our shirts is a nice conversation starter, but I'm talking industrial-level spore production.

If a grow rooom were set up with a system where the air being recirculated is forced through a chamber where a fine vegetable oil or water or some appropriate liquid was misted into the air to scrub the spores out, and the mushrooms in the room were allowed to fully sporulate (rather than be harvested as for food), a huge mass of spores could be harvested. Scrubbing particulates from air with water like this is a well established air cleaning technology, so it would likely work. Using oil to grab the spores would result in better chances for colonies, I think, because the viscosity of the oil droplets when ejected into the air (from my balloon!) would hold small clumps of spores together rather than their falling individually. This gives a better chance for successful mating, and I think this method gives the greatest chance of success vs. effort expended for forest-sized applications.


the chances of someone knowing how to clone or start from wild spores and end up with dowel spawn will probably not be just going outside and pick just any mushie.


Sure, probably not. But probably isn't good enough. One guy doing this wrong would set back mycology as remediatory technology for a long time, as laws and new regs were enacted to prevent it happening again (and making what we are proposing here illegal, not to mention the horrible PR fallout). Assuming competence is never a safe bet; kudzu looked good to smart people as an erosion control measure (oops). The jerk in New York or wherever who was working with gypsy moths to find a new source of silk thought his few little harmless moths were under control (they weren't). Lists like this can get real long real fast, and in almost every instance everything seemed fine at first. Assuming we are all much smarter and more aware and able to forestall these unintended consequences is a nice way to shit the bed again.

Before I go scattering something far and wide in the natural world, which is arguably been messed with a lot already, I want to be very very very sure that I am not going to be making things worse, that's all.

#35 aumbrellaforainydays

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 11:47 AM

so TvCasualty you're saying we should be careful when messing with nature? but isnt that what we do? is spawning an outdoor bed in your yard not messing with nature? i cant really think of a very bad consequence from creating multiple wild patches other than amateur mushroom pickers who might accidently eat these newly abundant cultures... but for experienced pickers it probably would be a rush to find patches of active azures and cyans (you cant discount how pretty these mushrooms are).

are we disrupting the harmony of nature by helping nature produce more fungi? will we get an alpha centauri scenario where the fungus becomes the top organism that is very parastic with the possibility of wiping out all other living things? i dont think we could do that yet, even with cloud and river seeding. you would need a special type of fungi to create mass degredation of the environment. as for azures and cyans however, i think they bring us closer to earth....if you eat them. they are like the fungi's answer to human being's encroachment on their space. so for the wild fungi farmers out there, good luck!

#36 aumbrellaforainydays

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 11:59 AM

In the spirit of Bobcats thread I was thinking that instead of using woodlover mycelium in clumps of wooden balls to theoretically spawn to the banks of streams and creeks, why not use those big brown and black creatures we call cows as the carriers of mass psilocybe production.

the first obstacle however is environment for cubies to thrive. 80 degrees F for colonization and 80% or more humidity is hard to find in all areas in north america. if it can be done the idea was to use the idea mentioned before; apples cut in half then printed with a cap and fed to a horse or cow. but if one did not have fresh caps ready to print could one use LC dunked apples insted of spore printed ones to feed to animals?

anyway the idea is that since animals have different digestive systems than humans and that its reported that spores can survive through this process and that in roughly a month you should see cubensis' popping out of the poo horses and cows have dropped. imo if this could work all you'd have to do is get a huge bag of apples, spores, and a ranch where some animals graze. all we'd have to do is feed the animals and come back month after month picking nearly effortlessly made cubies.

#37 TVCasualty

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 12:28 PM

will we get an alpha centauri scenario where the fungus becomes the top organism that is very parastic with the possibility of wiping out all other living things?


So that's what happened to alpha centauri... I'd been wondering why I hadn't heard from that region in so long. Maybe I'm missing something here. Like, why is it called the "alpha centauri" scenario (and what exactly is it)?

so TvCasualty you're saying we should be careful when messing with nature?


Um, yes.

I didn't think that was an unreasonable position. And yes, it's what we "do," but now look at what we've "done" in the name of "good intentions." In the same post, see how I'm offering up possible ways of spreading vast amounts of biological matter. My only point is that before anyone does something like that, all assumptions should be tested. You want to be the guy who accidentally propagates an invasive non-native species ("but it was growing in my yard, so I thought it was native!")? You want a newbie to get excited about this idea and propagate a choice gourmet edible, like the tasty Honey mushroom, before he learns that it's a parasite?

Have we learned nothing about nature's immense complexity that we are still cavalier enough to assume well, now we know better and won't screw it up?

#38 Guest_DaGoon_*

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 01:13 PM

this is more of a novelty idea imo, i definately love to see some pics of it.

#39 aumbrellaforainydays

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 01:36 PM

So that's what happened to alpha centauri... I'd been wondering why I hadn't heard from that region in so long. Maybe I'm missing something here. Like, why is it called the "alpha centauri" scenario (and what exactly is it)?


oh, im sorry, i didnt explain where that speculating was from. i was referencing to a game and book by the great Sid Meier. never read the book but the game is damn informative as it is. book: http://www.amazon.co...k/dp/0671040774

good game to waste some time if you like civilization type games:
http://www.amazon.co...F8&s=videogames

#40 StroFun

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 01:38 PM

LC in a spray bottle and go nuts on the farm.




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