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2 years later-bush doctrine vindicated: democracy rampaging thru mideast


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#1 Hippie3

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 08:03 AM

well we're coming up soon
on the 2 year anniversary of the
coalition invasion of iraq
so i thought i'd do a quick comparison
with the way things were back then
and what's going on now.

back a couple years ago
the taliban ruled afghanistan,
bin laden was setting cozy in his bases,
saddam was in his palaces
arafat was holed up in his compound,
libya was building an atom bomb
and the entire region looked ready to blow any day.

today
the taliban is gone
and afganistan has a freely elected government.
saddam is gone
and the iraqis have elected a new government.
arafat is gone and
the palestinians have elected new leadership.
israel is pulling out of the gaza,
forcibly removing its' own settlers.
libya has surrendered its' wmd program.
saudi arabia helds its' first, albeit limited elections
ever just last week.
egypt's pres. mubarak has just announced that
he will amend the constitution to permit
for the first time in 25 years
a challenger/s to oppose him
in the next election.
and the pro-syrian puppet government
in lebanon just resigned after 2 weeks
of massive street protests demanding
immediate syrian withdrawl from lebanon
after a 15 year occupation.
elections are scheduled for this spring,
restoring independence to lebanon.

it's really starting to look very different,
like maybe peace in the middleast
is just within reach.
this well may be over
by the next presidential election.

#2 Guest_Peter Cottontail_*

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 09:48 AM

OMG. Where are you getting your news from?

The Taliban are making a comeback in Afghanistan, and the US military is preparing for a wave of new attacks by the Taliban as soon as the ground thaws. Remember, even when Ronnie was busy ARMING what became the Taliban when the Soviet Union was trying to combat terrorism, the fighting all but stopped during the winter months. A wintertime lull should not be interpreted as peace. http://seattlepi.nws...ghan US Taliban

Yes, bin laden was cozy in his bases, where if dubya had been fully equipped with a functioning brain, he would have taken him out. Now, bin laden is on the loose, and has recently contacted al-Zarqawi about sending his huge MASS of willing suicide bombers from Iraq to the US mainland. Welcome to the bush doctrine in action. http://apnews.myway..../D88I6NMO0.html

quote:
"saddam was in his palaces
arafat was holed up in his compound,
libya was building an atom bomb
and the entire region looked ready to blow any day."

Saddam never attacked the US, and was in no position to do so. Arafat was the democratically elected president of Palestine, despite the fact that Israel hated him. Libya, as well as Iran and god only knows what other extremist regimes have received A-bomb making materials and information from bush's favorite ally in the region, Pervez Musharraf and his assistant, A.Q. Khan.

quote:
"the taliban is gone"

Sorry, not so. As said above, it's winter. The Taliban is not gone.

quote:

"and the iraqis have elected a new government."

Very true, one that is closely aligned with Iran right next door. Abdul-Aziz al-Hakim who heads the party that 'won' the elections is a turban wearing cleric with very close ties to Iran. He has stated for the record that Iraq must have an Islamic identity. Bear in mind, Saddam was a non-religious, secular leader. 1400 dead American soldiers under the 'bush doctrine' have just died to help dubya install another islamic state in the middle east that hates America and Americans. Some victory.

quote:

"israel is pulling out of the gaza,
forcibly removing its' own settlers."

True, but tell the whole story. They are pulling a small handful out of Gaza, so they can continue to build and expand settlements in the west bank, which is land claimed by Palestine for its future state. It is a sham, and everybody knows it.

The events in Lebanon are the direct result of the assassination of a very popular political figure. The people want Syria out now, but 10 years ago, Syria was all that was holding the country together, as civil war raged. These events have nothing to do with dubya.

You didn't mention the total chaos in Iraq. Even dubya's own top military advisors are telling him the insurgency will not be defeated by military power. Things are bad, and getting worse, as I've been saying here for two years now, while you call me a defeatist. Now the US military is meeting with the insurgent leaders to work out a solution, which is the first positive step I've seen the bush administration take. http://wireservice.w...&storyId=993437

I seriously hope things will turn around over there. I have a very personal reason for wanting to see success in the Middle East. Unfortunately, with a new Islamic government about to take hold in Iraq, it is going to free up the hordes of Islamic 'warriors' who feel it a pleasure to die for whatever cause the clerics tell them to die for to infiltrate American soil to conduct their reign of terror and suicide bombings. We'll see how much support dubya has from his extremist Christian base when suicide bombers start taking out huge churches on Sunday mornings. The idiot has started world war three, and all we've seen is the opening volley. Declaring success is a far cry from achieving it.

#3 Hippie3

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 10:00 AM

lol
i just had to pull your chain, rodg.
all in good fun.
:)

#4 Hippie3

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 10:09 AM

bin laden is on the loose, and has recently contacted al-Zarqawi about sending his huge MASS of willing suicide bombers from Iraq to the US mainland


how are these iraqi peasants to infiltrate the usa ?
not a lot of english-speaking fedayeen in baquba, ya know ?
they'd stick out like a sore thumb.
i say that why it's been over 3 years since
bin laden's been able to hit the usa mainland.
i don't see zarqawi helping that any,
it was just last month that he sent
bin laden a letter
asking AQ to come help them.
lol
both factions are hard pressed to stay free and alive on a daily basis,
they would hit us if they could
but they haven't.
pehaps they'll get in another one eventually,
then we'll hit even harder
so it'll take even longer for the next
and so on.
we can take an attack with the 9/11 attacks
ever 4 or 5 years
and still easily win in the long run,
just as we can lose a couple soldiers a day in iraq
until the iraqis tell us to go home.
even if you have your 200,000 insurgents,
which i doubt,
there were over 8 million who voted,
that's a 40:1 ration
meaning 97.5 % of the iraqis
favor the new government
we formed and now protect.
screw the other 2.5%
they can fight to the death or surrender,
their choice.

#5 Hippie3

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 10:14 AM

Now the US military is meeting with the insurgent leaders to work out a solution,


that's good link,
but not really news,
we & the iraqis have been open
to the insurgents laying down their arms
and joining the political process
all along.
the 'news' is that now
the insurgents are willing to talk
which must mean the fight
isn't going all that well for them eh ?

#6 Hippie3

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 10:20 AM

The Taliban are making a comeback

lol
yeah,
they said that last spring, too.
all you've got is a few fragmented remnants
scattered and hiding.
they pop up now and then
shoot a peasant and a few goats
then go back to hiding.
not a significant military threat,
and germany [the head of the coalition there now]
is sending more troops soon
as are the other nato nations.
the afghan army is now at operational strength and training,
and more than capable of defeating any taliban 'band'
in battle.
one never wins this kind of war by killing every rebel,
just too many hidey-holes.
but they will be old and tired and hungry in those hills
and eventually see the rest of the nation moving on without them.
they too are human,
they will want normal lives, to have a home, a family.
the fighting will ebb and flow but the tide has turned.
the taliban regime is over
even if a few rebels yet live.

#7 Hippie3

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 10:24 AM

. The idiot has started world war three, and all we've seen is the opening volley. Declaring success is a far cry from achieving it.


i agree with your three main points
[taking exception to the idiot thing].
so we end in agreement yet again.
all in good fun.

#8 Guest_Peter Cottontail_*

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 10:25 AM

quote:
"meaning 97.5 % of the iraqis
favor the new government
we formed and now protect.
screw the other 2.5%"

Where did you get that figure? 20% of the populaton are sunnis and didn't vote.

I almost addressed the difficulties of getting arabic speaking suicide bombers into the US in the original post, but it was getting kind of long. It would work by bringing them in from mexico or canada. Anybody who has smuggled across the borders knows routes to take. For crying out loud, tons of pot cross the southern border every day in 18 wheelers. These, for a price could also haul future suicide bombers. Their lack of english skills would only mean they would need a 'handler' once in the US. Such would be easy to arrainge.

Bear in mind, it's only in the last year we've seen the huge increase in foriegn terrorists infiltrating into Iraq. That is their islamist battlefield. These logistical preparations take time. If the clerics declare that battlefield to be the American homeland, they'll come here. It only takes time. If they do, it won't be an attack every four or five years, it will be four or five attacks per day, and it will likely be against christian churches, just as they attack shiite worshippers in Iraq now. Watch bush's religious base desert him when they realize he started the war over oil profits for his financial base.

#9 Hippie3

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 10:27 AM

Arafat was the democratically elected president of Palestine


just as much so
as fidel is of cuba.
if i had my way
we'd take him out, too.

#10 Hippie3

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 10:30 AM

Where did you get that figure?


i said

if you have your 200,000 insurgents,
which i doubt,
there were over 8 million who voted,
that's a 40:1 ration
meaning 97.5 %


i figure count those who bother to vote
either with a bullet or a ballot,
the stay-at-homes don't matter any more there
than they do here.

#11 Hippie3

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 10:43 AM

If the clerics declare that battlefield to be the American homeland, they'll come here


if i recall correctly,
that declaration was first issued some 30 years ago
right after the fall of the shah of iran.
and it's been issued a few hundred times more
since then, by clerics from
indonesia to somalia, from pakistan to egypt.
yet we still have never seen them coming in hordes.
frankly i don't think the mexicans would be too keen on
their country being used like that,
they have too many relatives up here,
our two nations are too closely tied by economics and ethnicity
for them to let hordes of fedayeen move thru.
ditto for canada.
and how are they even to get to the western hemisphere in the first place ?
as soon as they get on/off a plane anywhere in the world
someone will be watching.

#12 rick

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 03:43 PM

It appears the US is at a tipping point in Iraq
aside from the 120 killed in the recent bombing.

Although the road ahead is still very long.
These "terorist" are very patient. They waited
seven years before attacking the WTC again.
I'd becareful stating the US is safer because the homeland hasn't been attacked since 9-11.

#13 Hippie3

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 07:42 PM

The events in Lebanon are the direct result of the assassination of a very popular political figure. The people want Syria out now, but 10 years ago, Syria was all that was holding the country together, as civil war raged. These events have nothing to do with dubya.


tsk, tsk,
where's your conspiracy theory now ?
who's to say that assassination
wasn't actually orchestrated by the
CIA,
knowing full well that syria would be blamed ?
lol

with the fall of their puppet regime in beirut,
the isolation of syria is complete,
they are surrounded by hostile states.
they have lost their primary source of revenue,
which was looting lebanon.
it's just a matter of time before
a weak king and the tiny ethinic minority
of baathists in syria are likewise
tossed out of power and chased thru the streets.
another one bites the dust,
been a bad decade for dictators,
looks to get even worse.
the boys in tehran must be a bit nervous
to see their new ally in such dissaray.
they're next on the hit list,
everyone on earth knows that much.

#14 Hippie3

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 07:58 PM

come now,
won't some honest man step forward and admit
that the equation on the ground
from egypt to afghanistan
has fundamentally changed
in our favor
since 9/11 ?
even the media pundits who were openly hostile
to bush inc., such as chris matthews of hardball,
are now grudgingly beginning to admit
that there is a great movement afoot among the arabs,
stirring of a restless people too long oppressed by
kings and mullahs and generals,
the people in the streets of beirut
are crying out to america
"come help us like you helped iraq and afghanistan,
help us throw down the oppressors and give us liberty
"
open your eyes and ears and
take in a fresh new breath of spring air,
changes are coming quickly to the neighborhood
and the tide flows towards democratic revolution
from tehran to cairo to mecca.
the jihadists are losing,
they know it,
why is bin laden begging a punk like zarqawi for help ?
why doesn't he step up himself ?
thought he predicted his own death as a martyr very soon,
last year ?
hope he keeps his promise.

#15 rick

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 09:39 PM

Why is there a new terror Threat warning

on every newspaper front page in the U.S.A. today?

Is this because the U.S. is winning?

My hats of to those who gave their life for
Iraqi freedom,

But the American people should be fully aware this is FAR, FAR from over!

#16 roc

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 09:42 PM

Why is there a new terror Threat warning

on every newspaper front page in the U.S.A. today?

Is this because the U.S. is winning?

My hats of to those who gave their life for
Iraqi freedom,

But the American people should be fully aware this is FAR, FAR from over!

Democracy is winning!

#17 Hippie3

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 09:52 PM

Why is there a new terror Threat warning

on every newspaper front page in the U.S.A. today?


because it
SELLS,
newspapers and lots of other goods as well.
$$$$$$$$$$$
business
the american way.
got an ak-47 for your best friend...

#18 vrooota

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Posted 02 March 2005 - 08:02 AM

Time will tell hip and enough time has not yet passed to be dancing a jig. There is more than one generation of Arabs/muslims/ don't forget. Because one age group has been cowed by guns and wooed by western $$$$ and lifestyles doesn't mean there isn't a assload of orphans and or refugees that just need a little more hardship and pain in there lives until they decide to give some of it back in like kind to whoever they happen to internalize as the enemy and we know who thats gonna be. And if Osama is such a non issue than why is he still alive? Doesn't anyone else wonder why W doesn't seem to care anymore about revenging the deaths of a few thousand americans? He's the reason these dominos started falling to begin with right?
If the terror alert level thingy is only there to tweak the economy and control the emotions of the American people than why do you support the spread of those same false feelings of insecurity while simultaneously rationally stating that there is marked progress in the middle east which clearly contradicts the rise in terror threat status? Why the double speak? Just to get the rest of us (and poor rodger) all flustered?

#19 viraljimmy

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Posted 02 March 2005 - 08:09 AM

:(

#20 Hippie3

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Posted 02 March 2005 - 08:13 AM

i never said i supported it,
i just observed that was the cause.
a subtle but real difference.
just because i say
"this is what i see"
doesn't mean i support it necessarily.
but
some manipulation of the public's emotions and
information feeds are necessarily
in order to maintain public morale and
readiness to fight.
propaganda is effective and vital to the
war effort.




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