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2 years later-bush doctrine vindicated: democracy rampaging thru mideast


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#121 Hippie3

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 04:40 AM

Interesting what you say about a 100 year war
started c. 1917.
Do you mean America has been at war or the whole world?


both, more or less.
i see america as the heir to the old british empire,
and as america 'grew up' and began to assume it's role
it found itself finishing the job that the british began,
i.e. uniting the key areas of the earth,
vital resources, lines of commerce and communication,
under a single authority.
and really, one could even see that process
as just a secondary stage to an even earlier
global conflict which our history books refer to
as the age of colonialism or the age of empires.
in truth
the world's primary economic engines,
the 'CORE' of civilization/industry/commerce
have been waging more or less
constant war upon the less developed parts of earth
for about 500 years now.
the colonization of america itself
was also a part of the process,
and in it we can clearly see the
threat and intention of 'civilization'
to subdue and assimilate 'wild tribes'
into their sphere of control.
this process has largely been completed
in most areas of earth with one notable exception-
a band of under-developed 'nations'
in the earth's tropics/subtropics
that spans the earth on both sides
of the equator.

#122 taoistshredder

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 04:54 AM

Why is it the nicest places to live are the poorest and most underdeveloped?

#123 Hippie3

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 05:05 AM

my best guess is that it's
the heat.
until just a few decades ago
there was no such thing as
air conditioning.
the invention of air conditioning
esp. small portable units for homes,
is very recent, dating back about ~50 years.
it's an invention that most of us
give very little thought to
but it's effects on the world
have been dramatic.
before A/C
the population levels in the tropics
were quite low,
diseases thrive in warm moist climates
and it's very difficult to get people to work,
esp. when food is abundant and easily gathered.
areas of intense heat and little food
were largely unpopulated except by
the poorest of the poor,
driven into the less desirable areas
by stronger, richer neighbors.

#124 Hippie3

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 08:01 AM

6] Nutsack evolution picks up where it left off in November, 1980.
RR


lol
good old ronald raygun.
yeah, in our lifetime
that was the beginning
of the story now unfolding.

#125 chill

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 11:55 AM

so it's stable enough for us to tap that ass
and solve our energy crisis....what we're trying to do is to get them to stop fucking around until we get what we want out of them.


It always amazes me how americans think the world was put there to make their lives easier. Honestly, this attitude is why many people around the world didn't have any sympathy for the US after 9/11.

#126 taoistshredder

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 01:12 PM

What I think if more unfortunate is when the actions of a government are applied to the citizens of the country that government represents. And I don't think I was one that ever whined about the lack of sympathy after 9/11 - in fact, I'm the one that constantly mentions how we (along with most other Western countries - I notice you don't hate on them, though) have gone through the Middle East and tried to do the same damned thing with similar consequences. See multiple other threads where I've brought it up. You're trying to tell me that our country is the only one that's using up the world's resources for a personal gain? Or making war for reasons I don't agree with? Americans just love arrogant foreigners that call us arrogant! At least we'll admit to it.

#127 shedthemonkey

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 01:47 PM

Definitely necessary to maintain the current world population in a somewhat peaceful way, resources are limited though, and industrialization over-inflated the population to astronomical numbers. So like you said before, unless we find an alternate energy source we are all in big trouble.



I'd have to say its more like just delaying the crisis. Or ensuring that the US will not feel the effects until after all others have suffered. All in all its a good plan, nothing permanent though. And yes war will end when humans are extinct..


In reference to l33t's comment, I want to chime in that it is known in lab rats and other experimental populations that the size of the population is ALWAYS self regulating. Sometimes down to zero, but often down to a more stable healthy size.

When we crazy bipedal monkeys grow in number to the point where we can no longer sustain the groaning masses then one or more of the following WILL happen:

Disease pandemics will wipe out a large chunk, reducing the human numbers down to those who survive or are physically isolated.

War (including all varients of biological, chemical, nuclear, and conventional)...we go nuts and kill off a generation of military age peeps and the losers end up missing entire villages, states, countries. Murder is hardwired in mammals when the stress levels go off the charts. War is competition at it's harshest.

Technological jump in travel and related survival equipment to allow for sustaining life on harsher and harsher parts of this planet and nearby bodies such as the moon, Mars, etc. Don't hold your breath...unless of course the Vogons push you out an airlock...

Societal reproductive and euthenasia laws that regulate who gets to breed, live, for how long, who gets how much medical help, and when they must hang up their mortal coil. Some day that three-score and ten years (70) may become a maximum by LAW! Forced sterilization of the un-desirable is already practiced in many places and definately has (is possibly still) been done on the mentally retarded in the USA. Don't think that these are Nazi abberations created by evil crazed lunatics...These are one way for our species to protect itself. Harsh, but hardly any different than growing, pruning, and harvesting your pot plant to make it produce some specific useful product. DNA technologies will allow for much control of what type of human gets to survive the tailored foods and diseases of the future (see War and Disease above).

My big question is:

Are there actually people going to successfully design and implement a strategy for massive population reduction, or will it happen as a natural part of the planet's self regulation?

Either way we SHALL see an Armageddon the likes of which has never been witnessed before. I feel it to my toes.

Not sure I want to be one of the human survivors...much thinking to do. :)

Before high doses of mushies this kind of thinking was impossible for me because it scared me shitless. Now I do not fear death the same way.

"You think that is air you are breathing? Interesting..." Morpheous to Neo.

"We are ALL mad here." Cheshire Cat to Alice.

#128 taoistshredder

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 03:43 PM

Shed, that post had me both captivated and in stitches.
So many movies came to mind...Andromeda Strain...Logan's Run...Terminator minus the machines...
Favorite line: "Murder is hardwired in mammals when the stress levels go off the charts."
So good I made my girlfriend stand here while I read it to her.
She said "Fuck it; shoot 'em at 40." What a sensitive girl...lol

#129 vrooota

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 04:14 PM

What a damn good discussion about the upcoming nexus in human history....which way will things turn? Will there be something like the black death to turn back the clock to another dark age? Will someone strong seize the reigns and direct the species in the direction needed to be healthy and stable? if someone does will he be as error prone, evil and narcissistic as most of the infamous leaders of the past? Will he drive us into the ground? Anyone should be able to see that the christian prophecies of an anti-christ may be not be all that far off at all, even w/o all the religious broohaha it pays to look ahead at how we will direct our energy to manage certain trends, most notably population growth.....In the past and even now most humans have to fight to survive; agains the elements, other animals, and against other members of the species in order to obtain resources. Just like the obesity problem in the US, poverty in the rest of the world seems to be a backfiring of behavioural instincts to pursue 'wealth'. In 1995 the total wealth of the top 358 global billionaires equaled the combined INCOME of the worlds 2.3 billion poorest people. think about that for a second. How much is enough??? will we choose to continue in this fashion?? Of course, several of you already mentioned the ultimate manifestation of the kind of passive societal and evolutionary control that the strong have on the weak now.
In fact Shed spelled it out: Societal reproductive and euthenasia laws that regulate who gets to breed, live, for how long, who gets how much medical help, and when they must hang up their mortal coil. Some day that three-score and ten years (70) may become a maximum by LAW! Forced sterilization of the un-desirable is already practiced in many places and definately has (is possibly still) been done on the mentally retarded in the USA. Don't think that these are Nazi abberations created by evil crazed lunatics...These are one way for our species to protect itself. Harsh, but hardly any different than growing, pruning, and harvesting your pot plant to make it produce some specific useful product. DNA technologies will allow for much control of what type of human gets to survive the tailored foods and diseases of the future

Ahhh so many forks in the road....will we accept more and more control over our lives and freedom...turning into 'sheeple', perhaps bowing to an evil demagogue reminiscent of the christian anti christ in a time period reminiscint of the 'tribulation'? More amusing question: will anyone dissapear? I think that we need to keep all of our options open and not sacrifice too much of what we are.
4] humanity escapes earth into limitless universe
I think I'll take that one. It has the most good outcomes. Central control is always devastating to what makes us human
peace........

#130 taoistshredder

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 04:31 PM

"What a damn good discussion about the upcoming nexus in human history"
To be sure,
however,
perhaps better suited here
http://mycotopia.net...light=HOLOCAUST
than a thread about the war in Iraq.
[take note this comes from the king of thread-jacking lol]

[EDIT: lmao and look who the last poster was in that thread! lmmfao]

#131 vrooota

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 04:35 PM

LOL we like rabbit trails round these parts, ya know :)

#132 shedthemonkey

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 05:01 PM

Shed, that post had me both captivated and in stitches.
So many movies came to mind...Andromeda Strain...Logan's Run...Terminator minus the machines...
Favorite line: "Murder is hardwired in mammals when the stress levels go off the charts."
So good I made my girlfriend stand here while I read it to her.
She said "Fuck it; shoot 'em at 40." What a sensitive girl...lol


I was thinking:
Omega Man
The Postman
Water World (yes I know most peeps think these two Costner movies suck but they do pertain to post Armegeddon worlds)
Mad Max (and sequals)
Blade Runner
several Twilight Zone episodes
and several Star Trek and STNG episodes where they cover population problems and age based euthenasia.

But yeah, There are tons of movies having to do with the earth killing us all via meteors, comets, volcanos, core disruption, tsunamis, ice ages, plagues, nuclear holicaust, alien masters, or whatever. We monkeys sure do like to think the dark thoughts!

#133 Hippie3

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 05:34 PM

It always amazes me how americans think the world was put there to make their lives easier. Honestly, this attitude is why many people around the world didn't have any sympathy for the US after 9/11.


i hardly think that this trait is limited to just americans.
as for sympathy- highly overrated.
anyone who thought that many innocents
deserved to die
because americans are perceived as having bad attitudes
needs to evolve a few more steps, imhfo.

#134 vrooota

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 06:19 PM

no, opportunism, gluttony and a whole host of imperfections are by no means just traits of one particular group or system. Thats the problem, its the way that people have been thinking since something like that first scene in Space Oddesy 2001 happened ;) back in the day when sentience first occured. But its time to lose the metaphorical tailbone. Either that or a diaspora of the undomesticated

#135 taoistshredder

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 06:36 PM

Ever see A Time To Kill?
Scene almost made me cry the other day; words so true.





JAKE: We're gonna lose this case, Carl Lee. No more point in law to argue, I want you to plead guilty. Maybe Buckley will demans a 2nd degree murder and you'll get just life imprisonment.
CARL LEE: Jake, I can't do no life in prison. You gotta give me a hold. If it was you on trial..
JAKE: it's not me. We're not the same, Carl Lee. The jury has to identify with the defendent. They see you, they see a worker, they see me, they see an attorney. I live in town, you live on the hill.
CARL LEE: Oh you're white and I'm black. See Jake, you think just like them. That's why I picked you. You're one of them don't you see? You think you ain't cause you eat in black quarter and you're trying to get me off on tv talking 'bout black and white. But the fact is, you're just like all the rest of them. When you look at me, you don't see a man, you see a black man.
JAKE: Carl Lee, I am your friend.
CARL LEE: We ain't no friends, Jake. We're on different sides. I've never seen you in my part of town, I bet you don't even know where I live. Our daughters, Jake, they ain't never gonna play together.
JAKE: Now what are you talking about?
CARL LEE: America is a war and you're on the other side. How's a black man ever gonna get a fair trial with the enemy on the bench? My life in white hands. You Jake. That's how it is. You're my secret weapon Jake, cause you're one of the bad guys. You don't mean to be, but you are. That's how you were raised. Niger, negro, black, African-american. Don't matter how you see me, you see me as different. You see me like that jury sees me. You are them. If you were in the jury, what would it take to convince you to set me free? That's how you're saving my ass. That's how you save us both.



No matter the differences, racial, religious, political, social, economic, it doesn't matter - as long as we choose to allow these differences to divide us then we are no better than any other we see as different from us. How ironic that the solution is to dissolve the barriers of difference in our minds so that we might accept the fact of unity. "That's how you save us both" - That's how we save us all.

[EDIT: Scene courtesy of http://www.freewebs....tokillscene.htm the only transcription of the scene on the net Buddha bless him!]

#136 Hippie3

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 06:44 PM

there is no salvation for man.
at least, not any time soon.
we are still far more animal
than human,
most of us.
just a few short steps
out of the trees,
but not far enough, i fear.
still too brutal, still too stupid.
there are no gods to save us.
evolution is far too slow to help.
we will perish
as all animals,
lying in our own filth.

#137 taoistshredder

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 07:11 PM

mmm...sort of reminds me of the opening line to Trainspotting...
And sadly I'm forced to agree lol
But it's just so nice to think utopian...

#138 Hippie3

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 07:32 PM

why ?
i've lost my attachment to the species.
why should mankind survive ?
it won't do you any good,
you'll still be dead.
those that are yet to come,
they too will only live
a short bit
then they too will die.
seems to me that
death is the natural conclusion of life.
all the other extinct species came and left
so why not us ?
maybe
like the dinosaurs
we need to just die off, get the hell out of the way
so the next life-form can have its' turn.
of course
they too will perish soon enough
from asteroid impact or mega-volcano or solar flare,
gamma rays from some supernova 50 lightyears away. etc.
the death of mankind is just one more little tragedy
in the great cosmic play
in which we all play our bit parts.

#139 taoistshredder

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 07:38 PM

"why should mankind survive ?
it won't do you any good,
you'll still be dead."

You misunderstand.
I don't care if the species survives;
I just want it to survive long enough for me to die a part of it.
(yes, I realize it would be difficult for me to outlive my race)
And it would be nice to think that existence will get better,
not get worse,
despite the facts at hand.
Shit, and I'm a pessimist!
But I still like hope, no matter how bullshit it may be.
And the real fact is, all knowledge is self-knowledge;
my goal is not for all of humanity to see everything as one,
but for me myself to do so.

#140 Hippie3

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 07:51 PM

i don't think
humanity was ever
'meant' to be permanant.
i think it's our attachmen to ego,
our blind instinct to procreate,
that makes us fight against
what should be seen as inevitable and quite proper.
i think we should judge nature by nature,
look for god in his creation.
the history of nature
argues against the idea of any species
surviving unchanged forever.
the whole universe in fact argues against such an idea,
no physical thing lasts forever,
not even the universe itself.
but i don't think
one has to see the
'end'
as a bad thing.
again i look to nature
and i see that every disaster
spawns yet more opportunity,
volcanos create islands
supernovas give us the building blocks of life,
and surely the eventual demise of mankind
the earth and ultimately of this cosmos itself
will also give rise to the new, the next chapter
in the neverending story.
characters come and go in theater
but the story is the thing.
shed a tear, it's good to feel.
see the joy in a tear
and you'll catch my drift.




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