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Buddhism makes more sense than Christianity


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#61 Hippie3

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Posted 29 December 2006 - 05:26 PM

i have removed 4 posts from this thread that were not up to our standards here, off-topic and negative.
further the hideous spelling and atrocious grammar used was so inferior as to render the post/s illegible.
also this discussion is not about islam nor is it about bashing on america.
i consider bashing nationalities to be a form of racism, which is not tolerated here.

#62 kukukajoob

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Posted 29 December 2006 - 08:09 PM

Nichiren sects have been characterized as intolerant of other Buddhist sects, including other Nichiren sects. :thumbdown:
SGI and Nichiren Shoshu were one and the same until their nasty schism 15 years ago. A lot of tit-for-tat nastiness has been exposed since.:eusa_snoo
I'm not trying to start an argument about the Nichiren sects, but Nichiren himself was a controversial figure within Buddhism and said many controversial things. :headbang:
I did NOT call the Nichiren sects a cult, but there have been enough accusations of cult-like behaviour on behalf of several of the major Nichiren sects that I feel that anyone who wishes to know more about Buddhism in general should be aware of these accusations before getting involved with a Nichiren sect specifically. :eusa_booh
I'm sorry if this offends you, but the fact remains that there is a lot of negative stuff written about several of the major Nichiren sects, and it's not all written by people with an obvious anti-Buddhist bias. Looking up the words "Nichiren" and "cult" will pick up a lot of them. :mistrust:

Ancient traditions within Japanese Buddhism included debate among masters of various schools to glean the essence of Shakyamuni Siddhartha's original teachings. Since the original Buddha taught various levels according to the time and the capacity of the people to absorb his wisdom, many different schools [Mahayana, Hinayana, Theraveda] and teachings [sutras] were established. While Nichiren was highly opinionated that the Lotus Sutra was the ultimate, and highest level of Shakyamuni's teaching, and did engage in debate with other schools, neither he nor his followers ever engaged in persecution of rivals. Conversely, Nichiren himself was persecuted continuously at the behest of rival priests and military officials throughout his lifetime.
SGI [the Lay Organization of Nichiren Shoshu] had confronted the priesthood about some practices that were perceived as taking advantage of lay members. For example, requiring large donations to perform funerals. The High Priest, Nikken decided to assert his dominance over the lay leader, Daisaku Ikeda, and the separation occurred. While this convergence does not reflect well on either branch, it occurred peacefully - unlike many of the bloody schisms that have historically occurred, and continue to occur in Western and Mideastern religions. At the core of the disagreement was a need for reform within the priesthood. Sometimes, one group must stand its ground to achieve reform, and this results in confrontation.
The original Buddha himself was a "controversial figure" at his time. When he established Buddhism 2,500 years ago, he greatly altered India's Hindu society by offering an alternative to the caste system. Jesus was controversial in the eyes of Judaism and the government. Nichiren believed that the age that had arrived [Mappo] was evil and required the highest teaching [Lotus Sutra] to establish peace.
Anyone is free to join, and then subsequently leave any sect of Nichiren Buddhism without reprisal. I am not an active member of the laity or priesthood of any sect, despite many years of affiliation and studying the practices, which I have found quite beneficial and enlightening.
Dr D, I think your intentions are good in the way of saving people from being coerced into a cult, yet you speak about a topic you may have researched without experiencing firsthand. My opinion, based on actual life experience within the fold, is that some people are not cut out for membership in any organized religion. Yet studying and practice of a particular discipline is the only way to find out if something works for you. Then you can take what you learned [chanting/meditation] and use it to benefit yourself and others outside of an organized group while living your own lifestyle. :rasta:

#63 rajajuju

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 07:15 PM

in truth even central core tenets
like the trinity, the resurrection, the god-man, blood sacrifice as atonement
all are found in earlier religions,
the very basis of the 'catholic' [universal] church
is a synthesis of older more primitive religions
dressed up to appeal to a then-contemporary audience.


I am fully aware of this, including many aspects of its basis in previous forms.. probably which the progression of Zoroastrianism was the first major bridge from mythological pantheons to morality based monotheism, oral to written traditions, art based to law based, etc... but it still doesnt address MODERN christianity as you see it practiced in churches across the globe, and broadcast on evangelical TV shows, popularized in books like "Left Behind" and so on. The Catholic church is not incorporating any more religions. This kind of adaptable christianity you speak of is long, long past from a Catholic point of view.

Yes I find it hard to correlate this kind of modern christianity with something like buddhism, but as another poster pointed out - people who would be doing such combinations probably have a much wider and open understanding when it comes to christianity as opposed to the kind of wacky, irrational superstitious dogma that tends to predominate.

Its still odd choice to me tho.

#64 Hippie3

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 07:34 PM

the word 'wacky' is hardly a respectful/tolerant way to describe the beliefs of others,
i'll ask you to respect our rules here and not disparage the faith of others
in such a blatant manner.

as for your point,
i think the modern evangelical movement shows clearly
that christianity is indeed still adapting to changing circumstances
reaching out to broaden its base, draw in new recruits.
buddism would do well to emulate them,
but the buddhists have never been strong proselytizers
preferring to breed their way to large numbers.

#65 rajajuju

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 07:49 PM

you think the word "wacky" is disrespectful? to me that seems over-sensitive and "hardly a tolerant way" to handle civil discussion... but ive noticed you like to moderate with a somewhat heavy hand (which also seems odd to me given your screen name) so I'll try to censor myself more, altho i really cant promise that i will catch everything that might fall under someone elses interpretation of "offensive" - i may not be cut out for this kind of atmosphere, but id like to give it a shot

and im not sure why buddhism would do well to emulate christianity, since i think it would be silly to view religions as some kind of game where the one with the most believers wins

#66 Hippie3

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 08:22 PM

WTF does my screen name have to do with anything ?
don't tell me that you are trying to fit me into some
stereotype of what you think a hippy should be ?
:lol:
i'll disregard your other jabs at me
for now,
i don't want to make it too hard for you here.
:lol:
but i will say a few words about
tolerance-
i tolerate folks of all beliefs
but i do not tolerate folks who think
freedom entitles them
to disregard the feelings of others.
you may be correct in predicting
a short life for you here
if you persist in describing others
with terms like
wacky or silly.
both terms are insulting and fairly devoid of meaningful content,
i set a higher standard here,
one you may not be able to reach.
time will tell
and i will be watching as always.
:bow:

#67 Hippie3

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 08:30 PM

back on topic-

i think it would be silly to view religions as some kind of game where the one with the most believers wins


by what other yardstick shall we judge ?
truth content ?
:lol:
of course religion is a game-
there are rules, rewards, penalties.
it's a very serious game that humans have enjoyed playing for
several millennia now.
total number of adherents seems like a very solid credible way
to measure and compare religions.
each human chooses based on the relevant [to them] criteria,
in essence they 'vote'.
so what is so 'silly' about
counting up the votes ?

#68 siam_jim

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Posted 31 December 2006 - 01:23 AM

Though I’m not a religious person but respect all religions my friends desire to choose. However I have seen good and bad in all religions. Here where I live, over 80% of the people are Buddhist. The prisons are filled with many of its followers as well as monks. Goodness is from the heart, respects and merits to towards each others.

Siam

#69 Doctor D

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Posted 31 December 2006 - 12:15 PM

Here where I live, over 80% of the people are Buddhist. The prisons are filled with many of its followers as well as monks. Goodness is from the heart, respects and merits to towards each others.


That is unsurprising. Human nature is human nature everywhere. I bet there's plenty of self-described Christians in jail as well in the U.S. Even those who strictly adhere to Buddhist or Christian tenets are bound to fall prey to their human nature at some point. I guess that was your point, though, so I must be agreeing with you.

#70 kukukajoob

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Posted 31 December 2006 - 09:26 PM

Relevant passage from The Lotus Sutra:

The times when the Buddhas appear in the world are far apart and difficult to encounter.
And even when they appear in the world
it is difficult for them to preach this Law.
Throughout incalculable, innumerable kalpas
it is rare that one may hear this Law,
and a person capable of listening to this Law,
such a person is likewise rare.
It is like the udumbara flower
which all the world loves and delights in,
which heavenly and human beings look on as something rare,
but which appears only once in many ages.
If a person hears this Law, delights and praises it,
even if he utters just one word,
then he has made offerings
to all the Buddhas of the three existences.
But a person like this is very rarely found,
rarer than the udumbara flower.
You should have no doubts.
I being king of the doctrines,
make this announcement to the entire great assembly.
I employ only the single vehicle way
to teach and convert the bodhisattvas,
I have no voice-hearer disciples.
You, Shariputra,
and the voice-hearers and bodhisattvas,
you should understand that this wonderful Law
is the secret crux of the Buddhas.

In this evil world of the five impurities
those who merely delight in and are attached to the desires,
living beings such as this
in the end will never seek the Buddha way.
When evil persons in ages to come
hear the Buddha preach the single vehicle,
they will be confused, will not believe or accept it,
will reject the Law and fall into the evil paths.
But when there are those with sense of shame, persons of purity
who have determined to seek the Buddha way,
then for the sake of such as these
one should widely praise the way of the single vehicle.
Shariputra, you should understand this.
The Law of the Buddhas is like this.
Employing ten thousand, a million expedient means,
they accord with what is appropriate in preaching the Law.
Those who are not versed in this matter
cannot fully comprehend this.
But you and the others already know
how the Buddhas, the teachers of the world,
accord with what is appropriate in employing expedient means.
You will have no more doubts or perplexities
but, your minds filled with great joy,
will know that you yourselves will attain Buddhahood.

#71 Hippie3

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 11:52 AM

see, that's my primary problem with buddhism in that
like every other religion
it sets itself in opposition to the natural world,
declaring fleshly desires and real world urges as evil,
i just don't buy that
and i'd love to see a religion
that rejoiced in all the wonderful pleasures god gave us in the flesh,
i think we are supposed to love pleasure in all its forms
and deny none of the gifts of god,
it's blasphemy to me
to portray this world as bad
and make people live ascetic lives of self denial,
a perversion of god's real intention when he stuffed us full of quivering nerves...

#72 Doctor D

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 11:56 AM

see, that's my primary problem with buddhism in that like every other religion it sets itself in opposition to the natural world, declaring fleshly desires and real world urges as evil, i just don't buy that and i'd love to see a religion that rejoiced in all the wonderful pleasures god gave us in the flesh, i think we are supposed to love pleasure in all its forms and deny none of the gifts of god, it's blasphemy to me to portray this world as bad and make people live ascetic lives of self denial, a perversion of god's real intention when he stuffed us full of quivering nerves...


Buddhism is not asceticism. The fleshly desires are not to be forsaken, they just aren't to be clung to. Desire is considered to be one of the roots of suffering. Wanting things we don't have is suffering. Buddhism is called "the Middle Way". Not leading an ascetic life, but not leading a gluttonous one either.

#73 Hippie3

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 12:19 PM

that's your definition
but i've read and talked with buddhists enough to know
that extinguishing desire is their route to nirvanna.
the logical implications are inescapable and exactly as i stated,
they see this world as an enemy, something to be overcome.
the desire causes pain so remove, blah blah blah.
pain is part of existence and they miss the point in
leading a life just to avoid pain.
futile too, if we never risked pain we'd never love.
just another [false] religion in my book,
no better than the rest.
and know that many buddhists are quite superstitious idol worshippers
not nearly as many intellectuals as their writing might imply.

#74 aumbrellaforainydays

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 02:34 PM

I dont know, yes buddhism is a religion that tries to free one from suffering. but remember its the method (meditation) buddhism uses that many find more approachable to finding peace or enlightenment (unlike sitting at church) which purpose, imo is not to lead one from a life of suffering to a life without it, but to a perspective on life that deals with any suffering, our own and others by first ripping away layers of perception (influenced on us by a human environment that can be said to be ignorant of our future happiness and spiritual nourishment) so to make us aware of our pains. these perceptions, 'edited' by a society far from curing any suffering, may interfere with us truly seeing and acting with genuine love and compassion. to me the problem here is not that buddhism wants our suffering to dissappear, but through disciplined meditation and contemplation through every act uo do (mental and physical) you begin to see the futility of holding such perceptions in the first place.

i believe once you are aware of the root of what causes you suffering however, that doesnt mean it just ends... i believe that is just the first step, changing how you look at life is like that first time you tripped hard... it was shocking to say the least, but oh was it beautiful! but unlike tripping, spiritual practice is permanent and takes time and effort akin to growing healthy shroomies every month. at first it takes some trial and error but you see what is directly contributing to that damned trich, which is causing your mycle to become extremely distressed and unhappy. our mission is what to do in the event something distressing and unhappy comes along, and to do that with every capacity of patience and love we can dig up so that we dont become permanently affected by the many desires, pleasures, pains, and mental freakouts that can occur wherever or whenever. for my interpretation of buddhism i see its method as way for me to calmly approach life's neverending list of f*up's without becoming a mean, resentful, unhappy old grinch in the end.

in the end though, what happens if i do attain nirvana? is the buddha's mission accomplished? no i believe becoming enlightened doesnt mean anything other than you being hit in the face with a hard piece of wood. after that you recognize pain and happiness without doubt and for the bodhisattva, i should think their goal shouldnt be painless nirvana, but a painful hell in which a lot of healing needs to be done, and healing people doesnt require preaching... it just requires your honest effort without any thought of profit for yourself except the reward of honestly helping another sentient being out. with peace and kindness of course.

so what are you waiting for take what you got and build you own religion, i believe too much breath is wasted argueing about which religion is better. go find out and see for self. if its not for you then seek something else. for some one religion has got all their answers, but for some it couldnt even tell me why i should believe.

#75 Hippie3

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 06:31 PM

many xians find in prayer
the same
as buddhists find in meditation.
prayer is a form of meditation, i suppose,
if done from the heart
not just rote repetition

which, btw,
brings up the subject of
prayer wheels,
isn't it true that some buddhist temples
have built mechanical praying machines ?
how enlightened is that ?

and the whole idol thing gives me the creeps,
the cult of buddha worship
when he was just a man,
i just see
way too many primitive vestiges in buddhism
to credit it as being much better than the rest,
it might have been, in theory, in the abstract
but contact with real humans long ago corrupted it.
the buddhism you guys are talking about
isn't what one sees practiced today by the teeming millions of Asia.

#76 aumbrellaforainydays

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 09:23 PM

yes i agree man prayer and meditation should stick around... however, all the ceremonial/traditional/cultural stuff is left open for preference if anybody needs that to find some kind of spirit, but really all of that you already have... no need to worship simple men to do that. those men were just really wise men who people listened to because they liked what he said. ...all of that myth and legend shit just is what happens i guess when you're really wise, heh.

about prayer wheels... remember what is written and thought when one is going to touch a prayer wheel. if anything om. however on the mechanics, blessings, and actual history of these i cannot tell you every culture has some form of it and yes you cant excuse even buddhism from its past...

excuse me of sounding personally biased or 'too in' defence of buddhism or any of that... :eusa_droo

so are we talking about in theory what religion is the best? because that could be another damned thread....

#77 kukukajoob

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 10:31 PM

"As a matter of fact, in a rapidly changing ritual and religious climate in India, Buddhism was finding it increasingly difficult to desist anthropomorphic icons. Idol-worship was in vogue amongst various sections, specially the lower strata of Indian society and Vedic Aryans had almost given up their impersonalism and unanthropomorphism. This compelled Buddhism, too, to give a fresh thought as to resorting to image of their Master, which could help counter these factors. As a result, in the 1st century B.C. itself, the Buddhist mind had begun striving for realizing the Divine Master in iconic representations. May be, the Greek models further emboldened it to go for them"

Prof. P.C. Jain, Evolution of the Buddha Image

The statues evolved in ancient times and have been venerated historically because the features depicted on them represent spiritual qualities of the Buddha.

Tibetan and other Buddhist traditions [including modern Nichiren sects] utilize mandalas as the object of worship, - more accurately - meditative concentration. The mandala represents the entire universe, the entirety of existence, with the ultimate reality [Dharma, Law, Buddha Nature, Enlightened Self] in the center. Chanting or meditating on the mandala activates higher spiritual energies, enabling the practitioner to develop his/her spiritual awareness and thus compassion for others.

The history of Buddhism encompasses over 2,500 years. In the West, many tend to assume that all Buddhists are practitioners of the more familiar rituals and branches of the religion [i.e. Tantric (Tibetan) or Hinayana (SE Asian)] as depicted in media.

There's a good article at this link which provides a brief history of the spread of Buddhism throughout Asia - well worth reviewing:
http://www.onmarkpro...-vehicles.shtml

The prayer wheel originated in the Tantric tradition. Apparently, the Dalai Lama has said that the digital version performs the same function. I think it's just another way to keep people mindful of prayer in their daily lives - not intended to replace actual prayer and meditation.

Chanting Nam Myoho Renge Kyo does actually work! There is a mystical Law of the Universe, and we all have the potential to become Buddhas - enlightened, merciful beings [not statues]!

#78 ridder

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 08:58 AM

i would imagine those seeking enlightenment on the path of the buddha would find the idea that the world is evil as yet another obstacle to overcome towards ending suffering.


the buddhism you guys are talking about
isn't what one sees practiced today by the teeming millions of SE Asia.


replace "buddhism" with any religion/belief and the current practitioners, and the statement is equally true. as all things change that is the nature and lesson of impermanence as taught by buddhism.

the key is not to ridicule the details and current incarnations of any belief system, but to read with an open mind so one can learn from the lessons that shine through the details. if one can gain any understanding whatsoever beyond what they had before interpreting such text, then one has discerned wisely :). imho of course :).

#79 malefacter

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 10:43 AM

I practice malefacterisum, I believe in myself and i dont need someone telling me to do this or that so when I die ill be more happy.

I try to be a good person yet I dont always achieve it

I want to enjoy life and I want my friends and family to do as well

ill worry about death when I get to it.

religion kinda bothers me. I mean I had a partner at work that said dancing was evil caws it leads to premarital sex. I told him that hormones lead to premarital sex dancing is just a warm up.

#80 kukukajoob

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 01:21 PM

At the center are the images of the pig [greed], the snake [hate,anger], and the cock [lust]. If they become the center of your life, you will remain in the lower realms of existence due to karma [cause & effect]. They way out of the eternal cylcle of suffering is to develop wisdom through following the Buddha's teachings.




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