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New take on Amanita growth


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#121 sterile

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 03:34 PM

Great post aumbrellaforainydays! :bow:

#122 sterile

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 03:40 PM

That sentence was INDEEED talking directly to you, because i read in another post of yours here in Mycotopia, that you actualy dislike the Amanita trip.

As for the w o r d s you mention, i do not feel such an emotional bondage to them, i use them freely to express my thoughts, don't you?

I attack no other than those whom are waiting to be attacked

Love me now and forever

#123 Hippie3

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 04:28 PM

your emotional bondage is not the point either,
one would not expect you to take offense
at your own words.
:lol:

#124 dial8

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 05:34 PM

You should know better than to look down your nose at others. You may have handled many many doses of amanita but that gives you no right to assume you are better than those who have not. And, it certainly gives you no right to pass judgement on those who are partaking in this experiment.

As for the w o r d s you mention, i do not feel such an emotional bondage to them, i use them freely to express my thoughts, don't you?



#125 the_chosen_one

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 05:48 PM

oh good, an amanita fight. mind if i watch a while? :D

#126 Hippie3

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 07:06 PM

it's ok, 8.
i want the others to see
the true colors of all religionists.

if you don't bow down to THEM,
accept THEIR dogma, THEIR dictates-
then it's YOUR ego and pride blinding YOU
and YOU
will be punished.

that is the message so clearly uttered
by our devout friend here.
there are words of love , too,
to hide behind-
softly spoken
lies.
one loves with the heart,
not the lips.

jesus said
by the fruit
we should judge the tree.
and this guy
is a lemon tree.
:lol:

#127 sterile

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 07:42 PM

your emotional bondage is not the point either,
one would not expect you to take offense
at your own words.
:lol:

What i mean is that i never used the words to insult anyone on this site, i just used them freely to express my thoughts...in direct opposition to your neurotic replies...
...sorry guys...but you are kinda left behind on this one...:headbang:

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#128 Hippie3

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 07:52 PM

neurotic ?
that's your last insulting remark here as
sterile.
:lol:
your pic looks as phony as you act.
PM me for a quick Photoshop tutorial.
:lol:
farewell.

#129 TVCasualty

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 09:28 AM

oh good, an amanita fight. mind if i watch a while? :D


Dude, you're too funny. In my mind when I read your comment I saw people throwing Amanitas at each other until Zeus killed them all with a lightning bolt.

I got to the "fight" too late I guess- the ban has been applied. Oh well. Sterile was falling into a trap as ancient as the venerated Amanita: pseudo-proselytizing, which is a term I made up that means implying/claiming superiority of one's beliefs (which is normally used to convert new disciples) but simultaneously claiming those beliefs are inaccessible to most people as they "can't handle the truth!" On the other hand, a lot of people can't handle the truth, whatever it is.

Is astrally-projecting out into the Universe better than looking at the Hubble pictures? I mean, the vast majority of what goes on in the universe would instantly turn any human who got too close to pure plasma, and is also too big for a human mind to perceive in its entirety; your physical body can't handle it and your mind can't fathom it...what then is the point? I'd guess that the center of a distant galaxy wouldn't be as pretty as a panorama shot taken from 20 million or so light years away, where it's macro-structure can be perceived. Unless there's secret treasure hidden in those supermassive black holes, that is...

I've had spiritual insight and even accidentally teleported while tripping on San Pedro cactus, which I thought was way better than astral projection because I got to stay there, and fortunately where I ended up wasn't out of my way and didn't turn me to plasma. It was an intense and revelatory experience, humbling in it's power. Therefore, anyone who tries to root a cactus cutting will be smote by Zeus' lightning! Q.E.D.

Can't beat that logic.


So, has there been any more progress on cultivating Amanitas? Are the people drinking Mystery Brew still alive? Have any Amanita trippers been sucked into supermassive black holes? How would we know?

#130 the_chosen_one

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 11:28 AM

Dude, you're too funny. In my mind when I read your comment I saw people throwing Amanitas at each other until Zeus killed them all with a lightning bolt.

, and is also too big for a human mind to perceive in its entirety; your physical body can't handle it and your mind can't fathom it...


lol, sorry. it was a bit smart ass, but it was the mood i was in at the time. very tired lately.

indeed, the closer we move to the subjective truth the more we realize how little we know or even comprehend.

#131 OutOfTime

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 07:38 AM

I can see your point TVCasuality, but from another perspective, tha basic mind altering methods haven't evolved much since thousands of years...

If you want to seek this timeless knowledge, the best way to do it, is still going into the jungle and eating hallucinogenic plants..

There is no such thing as progress into the field of cloned psychedelics, only hybrids (like skunk for example) that only deliver poor mind altering results...

Nature=way to go imo and i think that spiritually, nature never will betray the heart that loved her...

Peace

#132 Hippie3

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 07:47 AM

so, you're back.
:lol:

There is no such thing as progress into the field of cloned psychedelics, only hybrids ... that only deliver poor mind altering results...

you are so full of beans** about
cloned psychedelics.
do you even know that cloning shrooms is common
and the results are even better than
letting 'nature' [i.e. multispore germination] run the show ?
we teach cloning here,
care to learn ?
much more useful than preaching, in my opinion.
> cloning <
;)

#133 TVCasualty

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 09:51 AM

Nature is the way to go, for sure.

And we're it.

Ok, part of it, but the part with opposable thumbs and a powerful Intent.

And like I've said before, the enlightened hub of human existence is gained by many roads, like the radiating spokes of a wheel converging on a point even though they might originate from the complete opposite direction. What looks wrong from here looks right from there, and vice-versa.

Try astrally-projecting into the minds of people who's never experienced 'altered' consciouness, from plant allies or high fevers or anything. I bet you'll see the full spectrum of human experience through their eyes; the same pleasures and pains and joys and tragedies, the connectedness with the continuum of life that comes from having and raising children, selfless acts for others' benefit, and a faith in the very same Mystery that trippers try to draw pictures of. You'll see a lot of mediocretins, too, but then again not all who eat the sacred plants necessarily learn anything.

These pieces of timeless knowledge are accessible to you if you are human, not if you eat hallucinogens. Hallucinogens are here to speed up our awareness and appreciation of them, and that is desperately needed now more than ever, but I think it important to remember that the entheogens are the means and not the end.


Come to think of it, I don't really believe growing out a cutting or piece of mushroom is making a "clone" since you are not really replicating or manipulating DNA in any way. You are just letting a piece of something continue to grow naturally. To me, a "clone" implies a non-linear history of cell divisions and that's not what we're doing. If I cut out a piece of a mushroom that's a week old, and it grows out in a petri dish, it's a culture that's a week old plus however many days it's been in the dish, and suffers any associated loss of vigor with being that old. If I cloned my 83 year old grandmother, it wouldn't really be worthwhile to create a perfect copy of her 83 year old self, as an analogy. It would be better to grow out DNA saved when she was born, something taking much forethought. This is, I think, the basis for Paul Stamets' "P" value system for keeping track of mycelial expansion from successive inoculations of a culture from one dish to the next (which is a relative way of counting cell divisions your dish is away from the original specimen). Spawn made from P1 dishes produce more mushrooms than the same strain taken from a P50 or P100 dish, he claims.

So, seems to me that we're just doing a very specific form of gardening when we "clone" mushrooms or plants; we create a suitable habitat and plant them in it, and they grow, and that's it. If that's playing God and is "Off Limits," then we should cut off our opposable thumbs nature gave us since everything we do involves manipulating matter in ways it would not naturally behave if left alone. And cutting off our own thumbs would of course violate this sensibility, too, so we are Damned by merely existing and therefore there's no need to worry about it.

#134 Hippie3

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 10:01 AM

clone |klōn| noun Biology a group of organisms or cells produced asexually from one ancestor or stock, to which they are genetically identical. • an individual organism or cell so produced.


we do indeed clone , but i understand that you like to redefine words to suit ya.;)

#135 dial8

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 11:04 AM

Its real hard for me to say that something is "unnatural" if it actually exists. If we, like bob mentioned above, are capable of "cloning" a plant or a mushroom then, in my mind, it is perfectly natural. And it is so simply due to the fact that that cpability does exist.

Plants sometimes clone themselves as well as mushrooms. Oak leaf hydrangias sometimes fall over. A limb gets buried by debri and it takes root naturally. This is a clone.

Some species of mushrooms have fruit bodies that can re-enter vegetative growth once they have fallen over and come into contact with the correct nutrients/environment/substrate.

If we all waited until we could enter the jungle to trip the only ones that would be enlightened would be a select few from those certain regions.

#136 TVCasualty

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 07:35 AM

we do indeed clone , but i understand that you like to redefine words to suit ya.;)



I hoped that what I was getting at was clearer, but I guess not. So, I will elaborate a little. At least I know you like me because you wink at me so much! :D

Anyhow, "cloning" refers to two very dissimilar processes these days, and one type is perfectly natural. The other type is questionably natural, depending on your definition of "nature." I'm not the person who creates situations where one word means two things- that happens all by itself because language is not the precision instrument many would like it to be. Your definition is accurate, but so is mine. It's not me 'redefining' a word it's us choosing different but equally valid definitions to suit our positions, which I thought were on the same side regarding the issues in this thread?

I was trying to make a distinction between what we do with mushroom tissue (cloning as per your definition) and the type of thing I quoted below, which does not occur without human manipulation and might be a cause for misunderstanding on Sterile/OutOfTime's part regarding "cloning" and "nature."

Molecular cloning refers to the procedure of isolating a defined DNA sequence and obtaining multiple copies of it in vivo. Cloning is frequently employed to amplify DNA fragments containing genes, but it can be used to amplify any DNA sequence such as promoters, non-coding sequences and randomly fragmented DNA. It is utilised in a wide array of biological experiments and practical applications such as large scale protein production.
In essence, in order to amplify any DNA sequence in a living organism that sequence must be linked to an origin of replication, a sequence element capable of directing the propagation of itself and any linked sequence. In practice, however, a number of other features are desired and a variety of specialised cloning vectors exist that allow protein expression, tagging, single stranded RNA and DNA production and a host of other manipulations.
Cloning of any DNA fragment essentially involves four steps: fragmentation, ligation, transfection, and screening/selection. Although these steps are invariable among cloning procedures a number of alternative routes can be selected, these are summarised as a ‘cloning strategy’.
Initially, the DNA of interest needs to be isolated to provide a relevant DNA segment of suitable size. Preparation of DNA fragments for cloning is frequently achieved by means of PCR, but it may also be accomplished by restriction enzyme digestion, DNA sonication and fractionation by agarose gel electrophoresis.
Subsequently, a ligation procedure is employed whereby the amplified fragment is inserted into a vector. The vector (which is frequently circular) is linearised by means of restriction enzymes, and incubated with the fragment of interest under appropriate conditions with an enzyme called DNA ligase. Ligation procedures usually employ sticky ends, single stranded DNA overhangs which allow annealing of the insert with the vector sequence. Sticky ends can be incorporated into inserts either by chemical modification and attachment of adapter molecules or by incorporation of restriction enzyme recognition sequences into PCR primers and digestion of PCR products with the appropriate restriction enzyme prior to ligation. ‘Sticky ends’ allow for both higher efficiency transformations and directional insertion of the insert into the vector, thus minimising the need for subsequent screening.
Following ligation, the vector with the insert of interest is transfected into cells. A number of alternative techniques are available, such as chemical sensitization of cells, electroporation and biolistics. Chemical sensitization of cells is frequently employed since this does not require specialised equipment and provides relatively high transformation efficiencies. Electroporation is employed when extremely high transformation efficiencies are required, as in very inefficient cloning strategies. Biolistics are mainly used in plant cell transformations, where the cell wall is a major obstacle in DNA uptake by cells.
Finally, the transfected cells are cultured. As the aforementioned procedures are of particularly low efficiency, there is a need to identify the required cells and separate these from those not successfully transformed. The required cells will be those that have been successfully transfected with the vector construct containing the desired insertion sequence in the required orientation. Modern cloning vectors include selectable antibiotic resistance selection marker, which allow only cells in which the vector has been transfected, too grow. Additionally, the cloning vectors may contain colour selection markers which provide blue/white screening (?-factor complementation) on X-gal medium. Nevertheless, these selection steps do not absolutely guarantee that the DNA insert is present in the cells obtained. Further investigation of the resulting colonies is required to confirm that cloning was successful. This may be accomplished by means of PCR, restriction fragment analysis and/or DNA sequencing.



#137 Hippie3

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 07:49 AM

nice side-step
but you did not originally accept two definitions as you just now did-
instead you stated that what we do is NOT cloning at all,
which is incorrect by your more recent admission.

I don't really believe growing out a cutting or piece of mushroom is making a "clone"


the kind of cloning we do is also by human intervention,
nothing 'natural' about it.
the technique is different
because the type of organism being cloned
is fundamentally different.
it's not a surprise that one would employ
different techniques to clone mammals or fungi.
but your definition is all about a certain technique
whereas the general definition includes all techniques.

#138 OutOfTime

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 07:51 AM

Hippy: I am very interested in mastering the cloning proccess, i have done my own little agar-plate experiments, seen some myc growth now and then...
Please don't tell me i'm a preacher of any kind, i do know i am responsible for such an impression but i will try and explain...

Dial8: I totally agree with you, we can never call something "unnatural" since all things/beings are included in this natural world we live in.
But i think you will agree with me, in that there are ways, to handle reality that simply feel more compatible with our surroundings, both biological and spiritual..
For example, we humans are able to choose between living in a polluted earth, and a more "natural" healthier planet..

I agree that cloning is a natural phenomenon, and that it could possibly benefit the human kind in some extent...like technology....IF it was used in a positive way, it could have made a more synergistic walkthrough with the human/gaian spirit.
TvCasuality, you make some very interesting points, i would like to comment a few: You say:
These pieces of timeless knowledge are accessible to you if you are human, not if you eat hallucinogens. Hallucinogens are here to speed up our awareness and appreciation of them, and that is desperately needed now more than ever, but I think it important to remember that the entheogens are the means and not the end.

This is part of my own beliefs, and i would like to add, that when a human reaches the point where he really understands that the importance, is in what the psychoactive substance reveals, the plants he actually used to reach that state, begin to fade out of importance...

Now it is true that humanity could benefit up to some point from a cloned Amanita,(as much as it did from cloned psilos as you say) but having witnessed this massive encapsulation of thousands and thousands of medical plants (and Amanitas are not an exception) i think it is healthy to be at least a bit sceptical about it...
Maybe all this discomfort arises from my personal participation in the ancient custom of shamanic tribes, around mountain Olympus/Greece for many years now but...trying to see how cloning can benefit this species and its psychonauts hasn't been easy for me.

How would you like the next generations to meet this wonderfull and mysterious fungi? Encapsulated? Served in cold grapejuice with some lime in it? This would most definitely rock, there is no doubt about it.... but respect to nature can not be encapsulated....and it is something that the mushroom hunting of this species does in an amazingly rewarding way...
The cloning experience has a magic and mystery of its own i guess, but if we have a more holistic approach on the matter, i think you will agree that growing mycelium for a mushroom like the Amanita, sounds like seeding some extra banana trees in the Amazon,
...the Amanitas grow so great in number and are consumed by so few of us, that grwing them in our home can only serve our love for mycology...
I never thought that someone would get a Zeus bolt on his head for cloning it, i just tried to invite the mycophiliacs all over the globe to approach the Amanita trip itself, before penetrating the structure of this particular spirit,
something that i think, would help in the cloning process as well.

I wish to end this "Amanita fight" by apologizing to Hippie in public, for calling his replies "neurotic" and all the negative stuff that came with it...:thumbdown:
I really think it was partially a misunderstanding..
:heart:

#139 TVCasualty

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 09:52 AM

nice side-step
but you did not originally accept two definitions as you just now did-
instead you stated that what we do is NOT cloning at all,
which is incorrect by your more recent admission.


True, good point. It's a misstep I make often when trying to make a subtle point in as few words as possible, and the best remedy for a misstep is a sidestep ;)


OutOfTime: The best way I've heard the natural/unnatural problem phrased was by Terence McKenna when he said "Everything is natural, but some things are more intelligent than others."

I'm not so hung up on the delivery mechanism of my entheogens, and in many cases I'd prefer a lab-grown product given to me in a geltab over something wild-crafted and possibly teeming with other life forms.

Cordyceps sinensis is a good example of a medicinal mushroom that when lab-grown is superior (human health-wise) to wild-harvested specimens, since it grows out of dead caterpillars in the wild. Amanitas are plentiful where they are plentiful, and that isn't everywhere, so indoor growing can make them more easily available where they don't naturally occur, and you never know what other unexpected beneficial discoveries might happen while attempting this kind of experiment. Of course, some who will try to cultivate Amanitas indoors will have no interest in tripping on their results so to them the whole entheogen/spiritual element is moot.

Seems to me most fights/conflicts are misunderstandings and a small minority are actually insoluble confrontations of opposing agendas. People ask "can't we all just get along?" but I wonder "What fun would that be?"

#140 Hippie3

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 10:19 AM

if you really believe that there is a spirit intelligence behind this universe then it seems to me that one should accept developments in this space-time as 'natural' even when events take an unexpected, perhaps even unwelcome, twist. call it destiny. if someone manages to perfect a technique for mass producing amanita tissue in a lab well then that is what was supposed to happen, no point in lamentation.




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