Sure for spider plants and many other examples, but if you cut a clone your taking genetic material for the purpose of making more genetic material. Your interceding and using that material for your own desires. Does it really matter what technology is being used? Scissors or microscope? Mind you this is a discussion about the dissection of the word CLONING.
Actually it was a disscussion about Amanita Wine, then turned into a fight between Hip and Sterile, and now apparently, for the time being, a debate about clonning, seems to evolve on it's own.......
personally i thought the Amanita part was by far the most interesting...but so what....
I still see no difference in the use of the word. But that may not have been your point. Sorry, I know your commenting on cloning being natural, but your pov eludes me.
Lets not get confusing with the differentiation thing. I was making a point on a more simplistic level. Salamanders and similars have retained this ability and its not clearly understood why. Also, if you cut off a salamanders arm, the stump would be MOSTLY differentiated. At the end of the day its kinda moot cause it all means this: undiff tissue differentiates. Some stay undiff, some diff to a point of no return. And there are mixes. But it doesn't alter the argument.
possibly regrowing a limb is more complex than cloning--that's what I meant--after all it does'nt happen in a womb or egg, but in and on the surface of a moving organism--and this "cloning" of a nonexistant limb is obviously "natural"--so cloning isn't unatural because it's too complex for "nature"--we can clone to some degree--but we still don't know how embryos differentiate--how liver cells know they're supposed to be liver cells, etc.
But it doesn't alter the argument.
what argument? we all agree "nature" is totally awesome and beyond human comprehension
and that "Nature" doesn't give a damn in human terms about anything...
species going extinct, mixing, evolving, devolving, symbiosis, it's all just "grist for the mill"
Heck she collides galaxies in her spare time
and flushes hoards of suns / stars and planets down the cosmic toilets we call "black Holes"
i agree cloning is cloning
and parallell universes are parallell universes
To "nature" eternity is a joke, to us unimaginable...
my only semantic quibble would be that
when 'nature' does it
it's not "cloning",
it's just asexual reproduction.
the important point, from the point of view of "Nature As Evolution", is that there is no genetic variation.
"cloning" implies concious intent,
we clone plants,
we clone fungi,
we clone mammals,
they do not clone themselves.
[noun] a general term for the research activity that creates a copy of some biological entity (a gene or organism or cell)
(this simple definition agrees with Hip)
1. A cell, group of cells, or organism that is descended from and genetically identical to a single common ancestor, such as a bacterial colony whose members arose from a single original cell.
2. An organism descended asexually from a single ancestor, such as a plant produced by layering or a polyp produced by budding.
3. A DNA sequence, such as a gene, that is transferred from one organism to another and replicated by genetic engineering techniques.
4. One that copies or closely resembles another, as in appearance or function: “filled with business-school clones in gray and blue suits” (Michael M. Thomas)
(Biological meaning 1. above , does not agree with Hip's attempt to narrow the meaning
and meaning 2 includes asexuall reproduction as a subset)
verb: cloned, clon·ing, clones.
1. To make multiple identical copies of (a DNA sequence).
2. To create or propagate (an organism) from a clone cell: clone a sheep.
3. To reproduce or propagate asexually: clone a plant variety.
4. To produce a copy of; imitate closely: “The look has been cloned into cliché” (Cathleen McGuigan)
(Biological meaning 3. above , does not agree with Hip's attempt to narrow the meaning)
The possibility of human cloning, raised when Scottish scientists at Roslin Institute created the much-celebrated sheep "Dolly" (Nature 385, 810-13, 1997), aroused worldwide interest and concern because of its scientific and ethical implications. The feat, cited by Science magazine as the breakthrough of 1997, also generated uncertainty over the meaning of "cloning" --an umbrella term traditionally used by scientists to describe different processes for duplicating biological material.
What is cloning? Are there different types of cloning?
When the media report on cloning in the news, they are usually talking about only one type called reproductive cloning. There are different types of cloning however, and cloning technologies can be used for other purposes besides producing the genetic twin of another organism. A basic understanding of the different types of cloning is key to taking an informed stance on current public policy issues and making the best possible personal decisions. The following three types of cloning technologies will be discussed:
(1) recombinant DNA technology or DNA cloning,
(2) reproductive cloning, and
(3) therapeutic cloning.
(apparently one word is too small for all the data...)
(also note the sentence: "also generated uncertainty over the meaning of "cloning" --an umbrella term traditionally used by scientists to describe different processes for duplicating biological material.")
Sometimes mammals also produce clones, but unlike the clones of other organisms the resulting offspring arise from sexual reproduction, in which a father’s sperm fertilizes a mother’s egg. In such cases, a mammal’s fertilized egg divides in the womb and forms two or more embryos. These offspring are clones of each other, sharing exactly the same genes. They are not clones of the mother or father, however, since the offspring only have half of their genes in common with either parent.
(Another subdivision of "cloning" with no individual name, so it ends up being included by necessity?)
my only semantic quibble ....
semantic quibbles indeed
‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,’ it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.’
‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master - that’s all.’
– Through the Looking Glass.
this is why philosophers say to each other "define" your terms,
this is best done at the beginning of a discussion,
otherwise one ends up arguing about nothing
Only Dictionary writers, Grammarians, Lexicologists, etymologists, and profs. of Semantics, etc. can make a living out of these sorts of picky debate
even semantics itself gets stuck with two meanings
"Here are two senses for semantics:
1. Semantics is, generally defined, the study of meaning of linguistic expressions.
2. Semantics is, more narrowly defined, the study of the meaning of linguistic expressions apart from consideration of the effect that pragmatic factors, such as the following, have on the meaning of language in use:
* Features of the context
* Conventions of language use
* The goals of the speaker"
quibble-ution Dispute among evolutionists over how evolution occurred.
pebble-ution An evolutionary idea that didn't rock the scientific world.
cyberfossil Someone who is always on the internet.
Noah's Aardvark The first animal on Noah's Ark in alphabetical order.
Tyrannosaurus wrecks Dinosaur graveyard.
dime-o-saur A very badly preserved dinosaur fossil.
missing sandwich The missing link's lunch.
halo plants Plants that grow near nuclear reactors.
Darwinter Olympics The struggle to propose something new about evolution that won't be given a cold shoulder.
Gould A medal you get if you win the Darwinter Olympics.
Hawking Going door to door trying to sell evolution.
Dawkins Tiny dawks.
continental drift The continental breakfast you ordered that didn't arrive.
radioactive dating Searching for a future husband or wife through radio talk-back programs.
guraniums Flowers from Chernobyl.
missing-link evidence Non-evidence used as the main evidence for something.
carnivore Animal that goes round in circles when music plays.
herbivore Polite animal that always lets his wife go first.
Frankenclone An animal that has been given some DNA from a totally different kind of animal.
Adam What you do to big numbers when you have a calculator.
Eve What people shout at the start of a tug-of-war.
zebralution The belief that everything in science is either black or white.
extinct A dead skunk.
unnatural selection Choosing the smallest piece of pie.
bad genes Blue pants that won't fade.
mootation The call of an animal with mad cow disease.
level-ution Survival of the mundane.
eclipse What the lunar gardener does to his hedges.
Darwindow dressing Something that makes evolution look respectable.
Darwince Expression on an evolutionist's face after losing a debate to a creationist.
rebelutionist An evolutionist who becomes a creationist.
arrival of the fittest What Darwin never explained.
cyber viper An evolutionist who anonymously sends abusive emails to creationists.
Henry Morris An English creationist's old car.
Tyrannosaurus rocks Coprolites from tyrannosaurs.
moomification What was done to dead Egyptian cows.
pyramid An organized pile of Egyptian rocks.
Darwindow shopping Looking for an evolutionary explanation that works.
paradox Two surgeons.
Noah's Park A Noah's Ark theme park.
Darwinian defense An excuse people use when they don't have facts to back up what they have said or done.
Darwindfall An evolutionary idea that people accept.
survival of the littlest The theory that bacteria are better able to survive than dinosaurs.
creationist cannibal A creationist who is fed up with evolutionists.
born-again agnostic Someone who doubts whether anyone can doubt God.
taxidermist A cab driver with bad skin.
bacteria The rear entrance to a cafeteria.
McTheory A scientific theory that isn't worth a research grant.
Darwindstorm Disagreement over how evolution works.
paleo-fantasy An explanation of how a fossil proves evolution.