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30+ dead, numerous injured @ Virginia Tech shooting...


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#101 Hippie3

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 09:22 PM

if only cops have guns
kill a cop
and you have a gun.
if only soldiers have explosives
kill a soldier
and you have explosives.

in backwater areas of the world
people still make guns
by hand.
i could make a 'zip gun' fairly cheaply,
the knowledge needed is already
a matter of public record
world-wide.

the gun genie can never
be stuck back in the bottle
no matter how many laws
get enacted.

#102 Doctor D

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 09:53 PM

Yet their level of "gun related crime" is virtualy non-existant.
from the bbc news

Guns are deeply rooted within Swiss culture - but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept


Yet their guns per capita is very high


Well, apparently they started keeping statistics after that Zug Massacre, where a gunman stormed into the Zug parliament, and then shot and killed the Swiss equivalent of 14 state senators. Washington Post found a few:

http://www.washingto...7042800944.html

According to Swiss police, there were 204 homicides in Switzerland in 2005, including 48 that involved guns. That is about the same number of gun-related killings as took place last year in England
and Wales, which have strict gun control and a population seven times the size of Switzerland's.

According to a 25-nation survey by the International Action Network on Small Arms, a British-based organization against gun violence, Switzerland's total number of gun deaths, including accidents, in 2005 was 6.2 per 100,000 citizens, which was second only to the U.S. rate of 9.42 per 100,000. Switzerland's rate of gun deaths was more than double that of 18 of the countries surveyed, including neighbors Germany and Italy.

So Switzerland, a small country the size of Maine with only 7.5 million people, had the same number of gun deaths in 2005 as did England and Wales, which have a combined population of over 50 million people.

I don't presume to say these statistics tell the whole story, but it appears their gun crime is on par for their level of gun ownership.

#103 Hippie3

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:01 PM

ahem.
they are counting
ACCIDENTS
which, last i heard,
were not considered a
crime.

how easy it is
to misuse and mislead
with 'statistics'.

we don't count
auto accident fatalities
as murders
but apparently
someone accidentally shooting themselves/someone
is counted the same as
someone going on a murder spree.

i'd bet
they are also counting
suicides by firearm.
but
firearms don't cause suicides,
they are just the weapon of choice
since they are so
effective.

#104 Doctor D

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:08 PM

Okay, so let's say for the sake of argument that Switzerland's gun CRIME is very low.

If their total gun DEATHS are the same as a country 7 times their size, then that means they have an incredibly high amount of gun ACCIDENTS.

This is only more fuel for the argument that they should restrict gun use! Supposedly everyone in Switzerland gets all this gun training, so they know how to use a weapon. If they are having such an inordinate amount of gun accidents, they have a serious problem!

#105 Hippie3

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:13 PM

well
one would need more info,
perhaps they go hunting or target shooting more
and so more accidents happen.

because if only 1 gun in 10,000 is involved in an accident
it therefore stands to reason
that a nation with 2 million guns
would have more accidents
than a nation of only 100,000 guns
even if
that 2nd nation had a much larger population,
it's the number of guns**,
not the number of people,
that determine the
accident count totals.
**assuming more people than guns.


and of course
if one cites fatal accidents
as just cause for banning
then why do we allow
automobiles to roam our cities ?

#106 Doctor D

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:47 PM

well
one would need more info,
because if only 1 gun in 10,000 is involved in an accident
it therefore stands to reason
that a nation with 2 million guns...


I never was very good with statistics anyhow. More info is needed, more info I don't have.

and of course
if one cites fatal accidents
as just cause for banning
then why do we allow
automobiles to roam our cities ?


We regularly cite automobile accidents as reasons to restrict and regulate automobile use. We can do the same for weapons.

I'm not for banning guns entirely. You're absolutely right, that will never work. But if someone wants a Smith & Wesson, I have no problems with that person having to undergo strict medical and psychological tests in order to own one. Fail your periodic psychological test? License is revoked, guns confiscated. Guns get stolen frequently? Same thing. Separate licenses for hunters using rifles and sportshooters with pistols.

Is it illegal to operate a gun while a person is drunk? Are there age limits on who can operate a gun?

Whatever happened to those gun keys where only the owner of the gun was supposed to be able to operate his weapon?

#107 pindulinka

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 11:53 PM

Yes doctor its true, but driving through switzerland occasionally I must say that the swiss are a people from another planet.
There is no similarity to americans whatsoever. That place is as cold as ice and everyone is rich. therefore there is no reason to become richer in any other way than work. Ill ask around there what the difference is and let you know what they say.
but crime in switzerland is like crime in iceland, its a day of public mourning if someone new goes to jail.. also in a country of 6 million everyone knows each other or knows someone who knows... ya know. So hiding from the law is impossible and no swiss would ever "escape" from Switzerland. Where could you go thats better lol.
I think that guns are the american curse (in my eyes) and all talk of banning weapons is moot. The present proliferation of weapons doesnt allow restriction. Theres too many of them. Just like in Somalia or Yemen, Americans are forced to arm themselves against other Americans. Im sad as a Canadian to say that firearms restriction is practically out of the question and firearms are an integral part of the "American way of life", no longer by choice. But a fair attempt at regulation is good idea if only for the fact that British and canadian regulars are no longer a threat there and perhaps that line in the constitution can be a bit reinterpreted for a more modern context and population.
p.

#108 Guest_Glasshopper_*

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 02:08 AM

perhaps that line in the constitution can be a bit reinterpreted for a more modern context and population.
p.


That "line in the constitution" you see so fit to easily modify for a modern interpretation was not put there as a whim.

Please alow me to quote the third president of the US..
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
-Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776, Jefferson Papers 344

Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ — Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764

The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." -Thomas Jefferson
"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny." -Thomas Jefferson, Bill for the More General diffusion of Knowledge (1778).

and other founding fathers,
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people...To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -George Mason, during Virginia's ratification convention, 1788

"They that can give up liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania..

‘‘To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them...’’ — Richard Henry Lee, 1787 the sixth President of the United States
What did Ghandi say about them?

‘‘Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.’’ — Mahatma Ghandi, "Gandhi, An Autobiography", page 446

Ok time to bring in the nazis,
‘‘The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected peoples to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the underdog is a sine qua non ["something essential" lit. "without which not"] for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or police.’’
-- Adolph Hitler, Edict of March 18, 1938

‘‘Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State.’’
— Heinrich Himmler

Now the commies,
"Government begins at the end of the gun barrel." - Chairman Mao

"One man with a gun can control 100 without one. ... Make mass searches and hold executions for found arms." --V.I. Lenin.

"If the opposition disarms, well and good. If it refuses to disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves." --Joseph Stalin.

I say beware of anybody who wishes you to not be able to defend yourself. History has, over and over, proven me right.

The Soviet Union established gun control in 1929.
From 1929 to 1953,about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Turkey established gun control in 1911. From 1915 to 1917,
1.5 Million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938.
From 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935.
From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964.
From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970.
From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956.
From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Israel had a problem with terrorists killing children in their schools.
In 1975 they armed their teachers, aids,and volunteer parents and grandparents. These people watch over the schools and protect the children.
Since 1975, when the program started, not one child has been killed in a school in Israel. NOT ONE!!!

Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort the facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed." Sara Brady, Chairman, Handgun Control, The National Educator, January 1994, Page 3.

A man with a gun is a citizen, a man without a gun is a subject.

We should not forget that the spark which ignited the American Revolution was caused by the British attempt to confiscate the firearms of the colonists.
You (Canadians) are still subjects of the crown where I am a citizen of the United States.

I for one would never stand for a "reinterpretation" of second amendment because I am a free man and intend to stay that way.


#109 Hippie3

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 07:03 AM

oh canada-

The École Polytechnique Massacre,
also known as the Montreal Massacre,
occurred on December 6, 1989
at the École Polytechnique de Montréal
in Montreal, Quebec.

Twenty-five year-old Marc Lépine,
armed with a legally-obtained semi-automatic rifle and a hunting knife,
killed and injured twenty-eight people
before killing himself.
He began his attack by entering a classroom at the university,
where he separated the men and women students from each other.
After claiming that he was "fighting feminism,"
he shot all nine women in the room, killing six.
He then moved through corridors, the cafeteria, and another classroom,
specifically targeting women to shoot.
He killed fourteen women
and injured four men and ten women
in just under twenty minutes
before turning the gun on himself.


The Dawson College shooting occurred on September 13, 2006
at Dawson College, a CEGEP in Westmount near downtown Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

The perpetrator, Kimveer Gill, began shooting
outside the de Maisonneuve Boulevard entrance to the school,
and moved towards the atrium by the cafeteria on the main floor.
One victim died at the scene,
while another 19 were injured,
eight of whom were listed in critical condition
with six requiring surgery.
The gunman later committed suicide by shooting himself in the head,
after being shot in the arm by police


The Concordia University massacre was a school shooting on August 24, 1992 that resulted in the deaths of four people at Concordia University in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. The gunman was Dr. Valery Fabrikant, a former Associate Professor of mechanical engineering at Concordia and a colleague of the slain men...Around 2:30 p.m. on Monday, August 24, Fabrikant walked onto the ninth floor of the Henry F. Hall Building. He was carrying a briefcase that contained three handguns and a large amount of ammunition.
...
Fabrikant took out a .38 calibre pistol and shot Hogben three times. Hogben fell to the floor and bled to death, still clutching the letter.
A faculty colleague, Jaan Saber, called out from his office nearby.
Fabrikant crossed the hall and fired two shots into Saber,
who died in hospital the next day.
Back in the hall, heading back to Osman’s office again,
he fired at the fleeing Elizabeth Horwood, wounding her in the thigh.
He then worked his way through the ninth floor corridors to the other side of the building
and into the office of Phoivos Ziogas (chair of the electrical and computer-engineering department), who was talking with Otto Schwelb, another colleague.
Fabrikant shot Ziogas twice; he died in hospital a month later.
A scuffle with Schwelb took place, and Fabrikant lost the pistol he was holding.
Schwelb, unaware that Fabrikant had two other guns in his briefcase,
went back to tend the injured Ziogas.

Matthew Douglass (a professor of civil engineering who was known to be close to Dean Swamy), tried to reason with Fabrikant, who had returned to the dean’s offices.
He was shot four times and died almost instantly.
Fabrikant now took a security guard and another professor hostage,
locked himself in an office with them
and called an emergency operator stating that he had just “made several murders”
and wanted to talk to a TV reporter.
He stayed on the line for an hour.
When he put his gun down to adjust the phone,
the professor kicked it away and the security guard overpowered him.


seems that murder by firearms is not just part of the american way
but it's also part of the canadian way.

#110 Doctor D

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 03:08 PM

seems that murder by firearms is not just part of the american way
but it's also part of the canadian way.


At least in Quebec it is! What's up with that? (Copycats, obviously) Why, in all of Canada, have the majority of the school shootings centered around Montreal? Why not Toronto? I thought everyone hated Toronto. Seriously, there might be something here.

Are gun laws more or less restrictive in Quebec than in the majority English-speaking parts?

The only other Canadian school shooting I could find was a Columbine copycat shooting in Alberta, nine days after the Columbine incident.

#111 TVCasualty

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 07:02 PM

Ultimately the issue will shift to ammunition.

Without ammo, a gun is useless. Many people reload their own, but ultimately all must return to industrially-produced components unless you are taking the black powder muzzleloader route (and make your own powder). I've read articles proposing reformulating gunpowder so it degrades in a specified length of time, like a year or 18 months or whatever. That precludes stockpiling, and if the powder, primers, and brass were no longer available it would then take about 12-18 months for the de facto disarming of a population. The Waco fiasco spawned this sneaky idea of course.

I'm not sure what the current status is of that proposal (I read it years ago)... Any reloaders out there notice expiration dates on your supplies?

On a related note, y'all hear about the Alabama Free Militia gettin' busted? They had shitloads of stockpiled ammo (don't know how long they had the stockpile), automatic rifles (which are illegal already- how did they ever get them?!?) and over 1000 homemade hand grenades. They apparently planned on killing everyone at a particular trailer park where Mexicans live to express their displeasure with US immigration policy.

Anyhow, no law prevents lunatics from making their own hand grenades or (in the case of a Japanese cult) their own nerve gas, just like no stop sign actually stops your car. If someone starts shooting people with a firearm I at least have a chance to get behind cover or play dead or jump him while he reloads. With explosives and nerve gas, those options aren't open (killers deprived of guns can come up with something much worse it seems). If I am carrying a gun, I can address any of these types of attack if I see what's going on soon enough... I at least have a fighting chance.

Remember that the people being killed in Darfur (and their killers), and the people who were killed in Rwanda (and their killers, too) were all human beings just like you and me. Alabama residents almost saw a mini-Rwanda, perpetrated by their fellow Alabamians; just some good ol' boys with families and mortgages and cable TV like many other Americans... Yes, it can happen here, and has before. Law enforcement got to them in time, this time, and all I want is the chance to be able to protect myself against the psychos, fanatics, armed robbers and such who manage to remain undetected by the police and FBI.

#112 Doctor D

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 07:25 PM

On a related note, y'all hear about the Alabama Free Militia gettin' busted? They had shitloads of stockpiled ammo (don't know how long they had the stockpile), automatic rifles (which are illegal already- how did they ever get them?!?) and over 1000 homemade hand grenades. They apparently planned on killing everyone at a particular trailer park where Mexicans live to express their displeasure with US immigration policy.


I scanned the headlines, but never read up on it. That is scary. Now, I'm ignorant about guns but I believe I have heard that a semi-automatic rifle is pretty easily modified to be fully automatic; you just need a few parts. Can anyone verify this? If true, then they only needed a stockpile of semi-autos, which are legal at present.

#113 Hippie3

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 08:02 PM

not exactly true, no.
it would require certain specific guns
but one can
with a federal license
buy/possess
full auto weapons
legally.

#114 TVCasualty

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 08:21 PM

Guns are just machined metal.

Some guns can be made to fire full-auto, some can't (depending on the design of the action). Some full-auto conversions require complex machining, some just a few simple parts.

Some people can machine themselves rifles (including full-auto) from scratch. There are plans published for "home hobbyists" to do this, though in most cases such a machinist would be smart to keep their mouth shut. Enthusiasts have web forums discussing the finer points of that art like we discuss grain-prep teks.

"Full-auto" is scary, but not a more dire threat. The guy on top of the clock tower in Texas picked off people one-by-one with a single shot bolt-action rifle, for example. People tend to run out of ammo real quick with them, too, and soldiers are trained to stick with semiauto or the compromise between semi and full (3 round bursts) most of the time since they can kill more people with less ammo that way, as it's very difficult to aim a full-auto with much accuracy while firing it, especially if you're an untrained lunatic.

#115 Hippie3

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 10:26 PM

of course
a person doesn't really need
to be all that accurate
when they are putting
30 rounds down-range in
about 1 second flat...

#116 pindulinka

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 12:01 AM

Grasshopper, I aplogize when I say I can see no parallel to the modern United States in any of your examples. Rwanda and ya ba crazed hutu lunatics?? nazi germany, Uganda, Armenia... which one do you mean exactly. Which one is closest?
Do you understand the paradox of the rights given to you by the constitution. You are allowed to bear arms against the government.. but who decides the government is wrong in a democratic society.. or should that be interpreted as a right to kill cops, soldiers and taxmen?
Hippie, Im sad to see those articles, I left canada for a post soviet information vacum in 89 and Id never heard of these stories. sigh, I guess its nuts everywhere.
Tell me guys how come these are not issues in the country Im living in (the Czech republic) with a population of 10 million. Like Switzerland gun crime is almost non existent and isolated almost exclusively to the small (comparatively) mafias operating here.. I havnt even been in a fistfight for 15 years.
My Grandmother survived WW2 and various concentration camps and when we talked about this in the US (shes 89 and her mind is sharp as a razor) she says that life has to become valuable there again. Some collective hardship, to bring people together and become aware that life is a gift, not a quarter you put in a videogame.
everybodys gotta die, why rush.
pin

#117 Texas_Bob

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 01:07 PM

Full auto weapons can kill of course but I think they are more effective for laying down cover fire while your buddy throws a grenade in an enemy position. The Virginia tech shooter killed with semi auto pistols that is just crazy that he wasnt taken out faster while reloading or something.

#118 TVCasualty

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 09:40 AM

Do you understand the paradox of the rights given to you by the constitution. You are allowed to bear arms against the government.. but who decides the government is wrong in a democratic society.. or should that be interpreted as a right to kill cops, soldiers and taxmen?


I think the framers of the US Constitution realized that any government, even one based on their cool new Constitution, is ultimately run by people. No matter the philosophy behind the document, it can be twisted and co-opted or totally ignored with only lip-service given to the freedoms it aims to protect because it's run by fallible and corruptible humans. So the guys who wrote the US Constitution added a little poison pill for potential plunderers: the Citizenry would be armed. They clearly recognized the obvious truth that Glasshopper was illustrating with his examples: unarmed people are much easier to subjugate. Period. So the carefully-qualified answer to your question is that we're not allowed to kill cops, soldiers, and taxmen but we are alowed to be armed so that we may defend ourselves against those same people should they become traitors to this country and attempt to overthrow our Constitutional democracy.

The 2nd Amendment is freedom's backup plan, but it only works if we can actually aquire firearms. And ammunition.

Tell me guys how come these are not issues in the country Im living in (the Czech republic) with a population of 10 million. Like Switzerland gun crime is almost non existent and isolated almost exclusively to the small (comparatively) mafias operating here..


Ten million people barely fill up Manhattan on weekdays.

How homogenous a society is the Czech Republic? That is, how much cultural diversity is there in terms of differing religions, races, and all that within the country? How homogenous is Swiss culture? I have been to Switzerland and Slovakia (went to city of Bratislava before Czechoslovakia was split), and they seemed to me to be far more homogenous than the US population. Populations of people who generally agree with each other in terms of worldview, religion, and politics tend to get along better or at least have more civil disagreements as their disagreements tend to be about details rather than fundamental opposition to a paradigm. In the US, this diversity is very very high, and it brings with it the problems we'd expect to find when people who see things differently are forced to mingle in close-quarters. It also creates a great opportunity to transcend these differences, or find the means for reconciling them. As Leonard Cohen says in one of his songs, America is "...the cradle of the best, and of the worst." Living where the action is gets intense, that's the only thing that's certain.

My Grandmother...says that life has to become valuable there again. Some collective hardship, to bring people together and become aware that life is a gift, not a quarter you put in a videogame.


That's why, historically, people respected their elders. They say smart things that we whipper-snappers should listen to, but our culture's emphasis on youth culture has dimished the perceived value of their wisdom. And frankly, wise elders are harder to come by in the US than elsewhere; I've looked for years. The wisest elders I've found here have either come from somewhere else or had gone through one or more of those collective hardships your grandmother mentioned. The old people (as opposed to 'elders') I've met here who lived without such hardships have just as pathological a sense of entitlement as spoiled children do, plus they are often mean and lack any sense of humor or perspective, sort of like the differences in perspective between Kurt Vonnegut and Bill O'Reilly. Best to avoid one's elders if they are mean and lacking compassion like O'Reilly since they'll impart those values in their listeners, which erodes the perceived value of life itself. It's easy to kill when life has little value.




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