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Somebody consumes an actual CWE of ergot!


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#21 tregar

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 04:54 PM

Thanks for the kind words moondust, maybe one day we will figure this mystery out.

#22 Hippie3

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 05:14 PM

just injesting any part of the ergot once
at a reasonable dosage
will only constrict vessels temporarly,
or else people who need vasoconsticting medecine
wouldn' t have to take more than once in a lifetime...


the MEDICINE given is NOT raw ergot,
rather it is a refined and isolated product
so while taking the MEDICINE is safe enough
eating raw ergot is not.


repeated use over months
that will starve irrigation to extemeties and cause dying/starvation of the flesh
taking 500 mg of niacin at least once a day would probably stave off this problem


do you just make it up as you go along ?
got ANY evidence that niacin counteracts ergotism ?

#23 moondust

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 05:19 PM

Thanks for the kind words moondust, maybe one day we will figure this mystery out.



nice meeting you fellow moth

let me humor you with my poem for Albert' s 100 B


'' for the love of lucy ''


A witch without her brew

is like a fish without water

it takes one to know one

and the devil wasn' t one.


For pains of becoming

the magic brew could heal

and pleasure in unity

within time standing still.


And far away stars

could feel so close

you could touch them


Traveling through dimensions

refreshing sanity

following intuitions

and let mother Earth be

Lucy dear Lucy

come back to me


by me



...all this booze, extasy, crack everywhere and not one hit in site...

Why me ? ? !

I hope you are right and we can solve this mystery,
sure won' t give up anytime soon...

nice meeting you!!

#24 moondust

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 05:29 PM

the MEDICINE given is NOT raw ergot,
rather it is a refined and isolated product
that has had the dangerous substances removed.
so while taking the MEDICINE is safe enough
eating raw ergot is not.




do you just make it up as you go along ?
got ANY evidence that niacin counteracts ergotism ?


What part of gangreene don' t you understand ?

'' mother' s seed '' was never understood,

howhever many mothers and babies were saved because of it, isn' t that evidence enough ?

That using ergot in its totality in a blue moon, maybe even once a year

or every nine months couldn' t possibly be any worse than when the midwifes gave it?

No I' m not making it up, I am sure it is all out there

if we really start digging,

granted it is a contentious safety issue,,,for the site,

so I must have just dreamed about it...in my dreams

#25 moondust

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 06:12 PM

Hi hippie3 the stupid mouse on my computer is giving out, I will have to stop searching and editing, howhever if you are curious, run meta words Abraham Hoffer ( fouder of the orthomolecular movement ) and gangreene and you will get the goods, this post below was my first pick when the mouse started being belligerant, I barely made it, cleaning out the unnecessary fluff, but Hoffer has better writing than this reference about his work, relating to diabetis/gangreene/niacine.

Ergotism doesn' t exist anymore, howhever it' s main feature is vasoconstiction causing lack of oxygen/nitrients reaching the extremities, slowly the smaller capillaries disappear and the flesh is starved and dies as simple as that.

Weather it is ergotism, diabetis, cardiovascular disease, the result is the same, hoffer has done extensive research on niacin, he is a psychiatrist but also a biochemist, you probably already know about him if you saw '' Hofmann' s potion '' posted on your site here, a great movie.

I met the man personally on the west coast, he is one of my heroes for sure.

Niacine does keep the capillaries opened.

In fact after I discovered it, I never took a hit of acid without 250 mg of niacine, as I always felt it made the whole trip more comfortable physically, and nicely rounded the edges in the first half an hour.

I highly reccomend everybody to read A.Hoffer' s public, free, medical journals, just go to the Orthomolecular hall of fame, find Hoffer and link from there to the orthomolecular journals of nutrition etc

A lifetime of studying, make sure you read his biography, as very few docors have done so many contributions to the truth, and health against accepted dogma, and prooved their pont like he does, if one bothers reading his research papers, hundreds of them out there, take your pick, and niacin is his pet project, enjoy, hope the mouse will let me save this post and get out...cheers

,Lincolnwood IL 60646-1975, 1999.
(3.) Parsons WB Jr: Cholesterol Control Without Diet: The Niacin Solution. Lilac Press, Scottsdale AZ, 1998.
(4.) Hoffer A: Dr Hoffer's ABC of Natural Nutrition for Children. Quarry Press, Kingston ON, 1999.
Vitamin B3 and Liver Toxicity
Editor:
This is to inform you that I have reviewed Dr. Abram Hoffer's draft paper, entitled Vitamin B-3 and Schizophrenia. This paper focuses mainly upon the alleged liver toxicity of Niacin (one of the forms of vitamin B3) and refutes the case against such toxicity.
I am a Family Doctor who has been in practice since 1970, and have had as part of my practice Orthomolecular Medicine since 1974. Since 1976 I have given papers at many international meetings, and have had published over a hundred items, scientific papers, editorials and other articles.
I am able to inform you that I have administered Niacin to several hundred patients over the past 26 years, not as many as Dr. Hoffer. I used the Niacin as therapy for patients with Schizophrenia, cardiovascular disease, and as an aid in the therapy of cancer. However, my experience reflects the evidence
cited by Dr. Hoffer.
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#26 moondust

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 06:13 PM

Ignore the title, I had accidentally double posted, managed to get rid of the text in the spear, but the title is stuck there, it won' t edit, so be it....

Ok my biggest problem in the last 18 years was this wierd black mold growing everywhere on Vancouver Island,

really nasty shit, I bet ergot really pales in comparaison, the stuff is so very nasty and massively everywhere over there, you pretty much would have to torch that whole place to sterilise it.

A word to the wise is all you need...get the hell out of there, the stuff makes you crasy...

can' t you tell ? look at me...just kidding, I left in time, but then again, I do not mind pleading insanity...

Good night fellow funguphyles...as long as it' s not black mold....

#27 Hippie3

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 08:04 PM

what ???
Posted Image

#28 moondust

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 02:20 AM

it that really you ?

#29 Doctor D

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 06:52 AM

what ???
Posted Image


:lol: funny commercial, and very apropos.

#30 moondust

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 01:20 AM

:lol: funny commercial, and very apropos.



Very funny but, I gleaned this if anybody cares to look into it

Exerpt from: Vegetalista Botanicals - Articles (Powered by CubeCart)


Our own hypothesis for an ergot recipe, described in "Mixing the Kykeon" (Webster, Perrine & Ruck 2000), overcomes all these problems. Unlike suggestions for alternative psychoactives such as Psilocybe or opium made by some, it remains true to much of the evidence first presented in The Road to Eleusis, it overcomes the problem of toxicity of the ergopeptine alkaloids, and it does not depend on the disputed psychoactivity of ergonovine. The only way to make the alkaloids of ergot safe and psychoactive at the same time, and also to employ the major fraction of alkaloids (the otherwise toxic ergopeptines) is to process the ergot in a way that leads to the conversion of the ergopeptines to the simple amides ergine and isoergine. These two amides, mirror-images (epimers) of each other and always in approximate 50/50 equilibrium in solution, are the principal component of the ancient Central American entheogen ololiuqui, whose psychoactive properties cannot be in doubt. References showing the fact of this conversion and under what conditions it occurs, and discussion of the distinct possibility that the ancient Greeks may well have discovered it (the partial hydrolysis of ergopcptine alkaloids) may be found in our article.
I mentioned above that this hypothesis is the easiest to test. It would suffice for preliminary results to digest powdered ergot with wood ash and water (as described in our essay). Trials would use various concentrations of ash, at various temperatures and for various lengths of time, and analyze the alkaloid spectrum and its changes using thin-layer chromalography. This would be very easy and economical to do. Once the optimum conditions had been established where the maximum conversion of the ergopeptines to ergine/ isoergine was achieved, a trial kykeon could be prepared and tested without risk.
As a preliminary to these experiments, I have already made some self-trials using not whole ergot, but my antimigraine medication. As mentioned above, this medication contains per tablet lmgof ergotamine tartrale, the principal "toxic" ergopeptine in ergot. Note that one is allowed a maximum dose of five tablets-5mg of ergotamine-in one 24-hour period, and a maximum of lOmg per week. At the 5mg level one definitely feels strong vasoconstrictive effects in one's extremities: cold hands and feet, even some tingling and formication. Yet at this dose there is absolutely no psychoactive effect, of course. The sometimes psychoactive effect of ergot with victims of ergotism required that one eat ergot-infested bread continuously for days, at quite a high dose; at this level the "psychoactivity" was not at all psychedelic or entheogenic, but totally infernal and often suicidal.
However, performing three trials with lmg, 2mg, and 3mg of ergotamine, digested and heated with wood ash and water as per the recipe, I found definite psychoactivity in the resulting preparation. I would caution any who would like to repeat these trials that significant and prolonged gastric cramps were experienced as a side effect, and thus the recipe would surely need to be refined before the experience was one to be valued and repeated. It is a distinct possibility that the pennyroyal mint added to the original kykeon functioned to quell any such gastric disturbances. To discourage nonscholarly experimentation, I have also refrained from divulging two other essential conditions of my preparation using ergotamine tablets.
[dagger] Acknowledgments to Peter Lamborn Wilson, Mark Huffman III, Jim Fadiman, Imam AIi Hayder, Victor Mair, editors of Entheogen Review and Laura Hoinowski.
NOTES

#31 moondust

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 01:21 AM

:lol: funny commercial, and very apropos.



Very funny but, I gleaned this if anybody cares to look into it

Exerpt from: Vegetalista Botanicals - Articles (Powered by CubeCart)


Our own hypothesis for an ergot recipe, described in "Mixing the Kykeon" (Webster, Perrine & Ruck 2000), overcomes all these problems. Unlike suggestions for alternative psychoactives such as Psilocybe or opium made by some, it remains true to much of the evidence first presented in The Road to Eleusis, it overcomes the problem of toxicity of the ergopeptine alkaloids, and it does not depend on the disputed psychoactivity of ergonovine. The only way to make the alkaloids of ergot safe and psychoactive at the same time, and also to employ the major fraction of alkaloids (the otherwise toxic ergopeptines) is to process the ergot in a way that leads to the conversion of the ergopeptines to the simple amides ergine and isoergine. These two amides, mirror-images (epimers) of each other and always in approximate 50/50 equilibrium in solution, are the principal component of the ancient Central American entheogen ololiuqui, whose psychoactive properties cannot be in doubt. References showing the fact of this conversion and under what conditions it occurs, and discussion of the distinct possibility that the ancient Greeks may well have discovered it (the partial hydrolysis of ergopcptine alkaloids) may be found in our article.
I mentioned above that this hypothesis is the easiest to test. It would suffice for preliminary results to digest powdered ergot with wood ash and water (as described in our essay). Trials would use various concentrations of ash, at various temperatures and for various lengths of time, and analyze the alkaloid spectrum and its changes using thin-layer chromalography. This would be very easy and economical to do. Once the optimum conditions had been established where the maximum conversion of the ergopeptines to ergine/ isoergine was achieved, a trial kykeon could be prepared and tested without risk.
As a preliminary to these experiments, I have already made some self-trials using not whole ergot, but my antimigraine medication. As mentioned above, this medication contains per tablet lmgof ergotamine tartrale, the principal "toxic" ergopeptine in ergot. Note that one is allowed a maximum dose of five tablets-5mg of ergotamine-in one 24-hour period, and a maximum of lOmg per week. At the 5mg level one definitely feels strong vasoconstrictive effects in one's extremities: cold hands and feet, even some tingling and formication. Yet at this dose there is absolutely no psychoactive effect, of course. The sometimes psychoactive effect of ergot with victims of ergotism required that one eat ergot-infested bread continuously for days, at quite a high dose; at this level the "psychoactivity" was not at all psychedelic or entheogenic, but totally infernal and often suicidal.
However, performing three trials with lmg, 2mg, and 3mg of ergotamine, digested and heated with wood ash and water as per the recipe, I found definite psychoactivity in the resulting preparation. I would caution any who would like to repeat these trials that significant and prolonged gastric cramps were experienced as a side effect, and thus the recipe would surely need to be refined before the experience was one to be valued and repeated. It is a distinct possibility that the pennyroyal mint added to the original kykeon functioned to quell any such gastric disturbances. To discourage nonscholarly experimentation, I have also refrained from divulging two other essential conditions of my preparation using ergotamine tablets.
[dagger] Acknowledgments to Peter Lamborn Wilson, Mark Huffman III, Jim Fadiman, Imam AIi Hayder, Victor Mair, editors of Entheogen Review and Laura Hoinowski.
NOTES

#32 moondust

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 12:14 AM

MOTHS FROM KENTUKy:

'' ...Up to 100% of moths and 75% of flies collected from some fields carried conidia of C. purpurea...''

#33 Vapor

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 09:21 PM

Wonder and surmize by all means but don't go near this. Ergotism is well documented as potentially horrible experientially and potentially deadly physically. Extreme vaso constriction/impeded circulation can result in gangarine, associated need for amputation, and/or death.

#34 moondust

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Posted 27 July 2007 - 01:37 AM

'' WIKIPEDIA DEFINITION : Ergotism is the effect of long-term ergot poisoning, classically due to the ingestion of the alkaloids produced by the Claviceps purpurea [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungus"]fungus[/U... ''END OF QUOTE


It says long term ( or very very high initial dosage )
long term to me means repeated dayly usage.


Like long term repeated dayly usage of alchool will cause alchoolism
or a very very high initial dose of alchool will make you very very ill for 3 days.



First of all, consuming ergot without bringing it' s PH to 7.5 is ludicrous

This explains the wood ash treatement the ancient performed on ergot

prior to ingesting Kikeon.

The human body has to be maintained at 7.5 PH

this act of nutralisation is a good start.



I keep hearing some of you expressing this legitimate concern about gangreene

which is a reality, but I am tired of hearing it in such a way that implies

one time consumption of ergot is guarantee of gangreene,




the medications to constrict vessels derived from ergot have also this

potential, I would say even more so than ergot itself, since they were

isolated for this purpouse and pourpuse only, and were chosen as such

for being the most vaso constrictive alcaloids found in ergot, it is only

logical and economical.




Hence stop the misleading fear mongering, kikeon existed and some

of us would really like figuring it out.




A Once a year consumption is not asking too much when the mystery of its preparation is solved.




By extinguishing this thread with fear mongering, any research and dialogue

terminated, the crasy fools who would just take ergot and ingest

an undisclosed random quantity of ergot by lack of knowledge would be left

with nothing else to rely on, other that : kikeon is ergot based.




This discussion has to continue, until no rock is left unturned.

Fear mongering doesn' t help.

Just say thanks to the moths for carrying the spores until it' s

a mystery solved.

In conclusion long term means :

repeated dayly use of something over a period of weeks and months.

Go find the max dayly doses of ergot derived vaso constictors,

and other timely limitations and do the math for yourselves

if you can or care.

#35 Lefty

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Posted 28 July 2007 - 09:21 AM

Very interesting, beyond my realm. A little miscalculation...

#36 Vapor

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Posted 28 July 2007 - 09:25 AM

'' WIKIPEDIA DEFINITION : Ergotism is the effect of long-term ergot poisoning, classically due to the ingestion of the alkaloids produced by the Claviceps purpurea [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungus"]fungus[/U... ''END OF QUOTE


It says long term ( or very very high initial dosage )
long term to me means repeated dayly usage.


Like long term repeated dayly usage of alchool will cause alchoolism
or a very very high initial dose of alchool will make you very very ill for 3 days.



First of all, consuming ergot without bringing it' s PH to 7.5 is ludicrous

This explains the wood ash treatement the ancient performed on ergot

prior to ingesting Kikeon.

The human body has to be maintained at 7.5 PH

this act of nutralisation is a good start.



I keep hearing some of you expressing this legitimate concern about gangreene

which is a reality, but I am tired of hearing it in such a way that implies

one time consumption of ergot is guarantee of gangreene,




the medications to constrict vessels derived from ergot have also this

potential, I would say even more so than ergot itself, since they were

isolated for this purpouse and pourpuse only, and were chosen as such

for being the most vaso constrictive alcaloids found in ergot, it is only

logical and economical.




Hence stop the misleading fear mongering, kikeon existed and some

of us would really like figuring it out.




A Once a year consumption is not asking too much when the mystery of its preparation is solved.




By extinguishing this thread with fear mongering, any research and dialogue

terminated, the crasy fools who would just take ergot and ingest

an undisclosed random quantity of ergot by lack of knowledge would be left

with nothing else to rely on, other that : kikeon is ergot based.




This discussion has to continue, until no rock is left unturned.

Fear mongering doesn' t help.

Just say thanks to the moths for carrying the spores until it' s

a mystery solved.

In conclusion long term means :

repeated dayly use of something over a period of weeks and months.

Go find the max dayly doses of ergot derived vaso constictors,

and other timely limitations and do the math for yourselves

if you can or care.


Fear mongering and caution are two different things.




You are right that discussion should go on but I wouldn't want to be the one to test this stuff out.

I must challange the logic of some of your examples. Ergotine derivitives for medication are accurately dosed within perameters that hopefully safeguard the individual taking the prescription. They are not the raw product.

Initial high doses of alcohol can, and too often have, killed people.

Further, alcohol is not ergot. You are comparing the effects of two completely diferent substancs to make a point about one of them. Although you may or may not be right it is difficult to accept the logic of your extrapolation.

#37 moondust

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Posted 28 July 2007 - 12:29 PM

Fear mongering and caution are two different things.




You are right that discussion should go on but I wouldn't want to be the one to test this stuff out.

I must challange the logic of some of your examples. Ergotine derivitives for medication are accurately dosed within perameters that hopefully safeguard the individual taking the prescription. They are not the raw product.

Initial high doses of alcohol can, and too often have, killed people.

Further, alcohol is not ergot. You are comparing the effects of two completely diferent substancs to make a point about one of them. Although you may or may not be right it is difficult to accept the logic of your extrapolation.



Well gladly nobody is asking you to try ''this''
( have we found the perfect recepy yet ? )
yes yes caution is a very good thing
but truth is nice too, I do appreciate though
you bringing caution up
people do really wierd things
or let me correct myself
people do things in really wierd ways sometimes
and there will always be some idiot
to come and ruin a good thing.

I also agree alchool isn' t ergot
I mean I hate alchool with a passion
to me it is the demon so I picked it
since to most everyone else ergot was the demon
I thought at least they had that in common
what else you want me to compare ergot to
in an analogy...

'' nothing compares, nothing compares to you...''

the medications extracted have only one advantage
as you said they are standardised
you know what to expect
but don' t kid yourself
they have been isolated and concentrated
having too much of a specific vaso constictor medication
can actually be worse that the same dose unit
of the whole plant, that has different things
some not vasoconstricting !! as far as the gangreene thing goes.
So there.

I am not trying this myself
before I see what it does to some future mine
Kamboutcha tea mashroom in some sweet sweet dream

when that happens I will let you know
what kamboutcha '' said ''

#38 Vapor

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 08:52 AM

Hi Moondust,
Thanks for the response.
I respect you.
I'd like to see ergot approached with clinical studies and trials rather than neo shamanism out of respect for the possibly dangerous/deadly nature of the substance.
This is not likely to happen.

Be well!

Vap

#39 SharkieJones

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:54 AM

I think I'll stick to mushrooms, but an interesting read.

#40 Hippie3

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 11:01 AM

well first and foremost
it's never even been proven
that ergot was in fact part of the ancient greek potion
called kikeon used in the eleusinian rites.

there may therefore be no safe dose of ergot,
while full blown gangrene may not occcur
from a single low level exposure
[i wouldn't bet on that but you might]
nevertheless there are documented cases
of mass insanity where villages ate ergot-infested bread
which presumably was a short episode, low level,
and that wasn't exactly good for them.

now to terms-
fear-mongering is not what is going on
when folks urge caution, moondust.
that's just being sensible, prudent.

it is you that has something to sell,
which is what mongering means.

you are trying to sell the idea that's
ingesting a very dangerous substance
is safe and
therefore the burden of proof is upon
you.

you have not yet met that burden to our satisfaction.
so do not tell folks
not to speak against this
idea of yours [and others].

our concerns are legitimate ,
preserving life and limb, literally,
as much and more important than merely
advancing any discussion
about kikeon and ergot.




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