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#41 the jesus

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 06:58 PM

So why do I have three totally healthy and two mutated strains when they were all inocculated, incubated and fruited at the exact same time, in the exact same environment? By the way I really appreciate you guys taking so much time with this.

#42 crazy1

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 07:06 PM

Any mushroom has the ability to break down a chemical, or substance to it's basic elemental properties. There could be a chance that in doing this, the mycelium has had deformities in only certain parts where the base element is most concentrated. Just a guess, but I believe it is possible.
And some parts could have had a heavier "dose" of these elements.

#43 Hippie3

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 07:07 PM

why can a family of 5 have
3 with head colds and 2 be perfectly fine ?
boils down to resistance, imo.

#44 the jesus

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 07:15 PM

Here is a pic my friend sent me of the redboy I gave him from the same batch as mine when they were about halfway colonized. So this is the same up until then, but totally different fruiting environments. It is a bad pic but you can see it has the same "puffballs". The crooked stems and the shroom on the bottom left with the cap unusually small for the stem are both signs of vert. correct?

http://mycotopia.net...14&d=1180051964

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#45 Hippie3

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 07:19 PM

that looks more like low light levels
and/or high co2 levels.
definitely no rosecomb there
and if there is any verticillium it's
a mild case.

#46 crazy1

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 07:20 PM

why can a family of 5 have
3 with head colds and 2 be perfectly fine ?
boils down to resistance, imo.


Not to question you Hippe. But do you mean that some of the mycelium in a cake can be contaminated, while the other areas are OK? Not to sure what you're saying. Or are you referring to the numerous cakes being inoculated at the same time under the same conditions and only a few are contaminated?

#47 Hippie3

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 07:22 PM

that's not what i said.
i said
one cake can be contaminated
while another cake is not.

#48 crazy1

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 07:31 PM

Well thanx for clarifying that.

#49 the_chosen_one

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 08:05 PM

Not to question you Hippe. But do you mean that some of the mycelium in a cake can be contaminated, while the other areas are OK? Not to sure what you're saying. Or are you referring to the numerous cakes being inoculated at the same time under the same conditions and only a few are contaminated?


this could be explained by varying dikaryotic colonies. a cake is made up of several of them if not hundereds. it's what differentiates what we call "sub-strains" which are actually strains (not to be confused with varieties, RB, GT, PFC etc.) when we isolate we are simply removing most of the fruiting possibilities. or various sub-strains/strains.
a cake is numerous dikaryon colonies, not just one big globe of fused mycelium. it is quite possible that only a few of the di' colonies are experiencing the genetic damage. at least visibly.
i truly believe that this "damage" can be passed on throughout the generations. the damage we don't see could be a suseptability to genetic damage from various outside sources. possibly a thinned cellular wall is to blame. a result of chromazome scarring or damage.
i have no written scientific proof of this, but i have done experiments with chemicals in the past that could support the theory.
i'm with python....breed some. bet you'll see more of this down the road. be sure to keep any breeding from these seperate from your known good stuff so you have a control group.

lol, so much time? hey, you got a lot goin on. awesome thread!:bow:

#50 the_chosen_one

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 08:11 PM

And man, I don't wanna be comin' off all Yoda "I've seen it all, it's nothing new" 'cause every mutation is unique. TCO had one that looked like it had a friggin' mouth coming off of it! I guarantee you, that dude has seen way weirder shit than both of us combined!


:lol: that may only be true cuz i'm an old fart.

reviewing more....did that RB only put out globs, or was there some normals too?

#51 the jesus

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 04:24 AM

There were some healthy ones on the redboys as well. The PE only put out globs, which were removed. Both the redboys and PE are being dunked at the moment and I am going to put them in a different chamber with lower humidity and make sure they get plenty of air to see if that helps.

This is turning into a very informative thread, thanks guys. :bow:

#52 Bobcat

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 10:02 AM

On the issue of two cakes from the same batch birthed in two different locales both possibly having vert.... Can't vert be continued via spore print just like trich and bacteria and others?

#53 python

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 11:09 AM

for your general ? Bobcat........

I think it is unlikely that vert could be carried via spore print.......rather vert is a problem caused by less than ideal procedure.....as i have said many times in the past..... It thrives in nature (soils etc) and most likely finds its way into the fruiting environment via the casing materials, or by humans or insects . Vert is most commonly encountered in areas of excessive humidity w/ inadequate air exchange..... It is a fungi imperfecti and uses mushroom fruitbodies as its host........

The information above simply repeats what i have said before....."that i believe that excessive moisture causes vert........" I no longer use a casing on cakes........and have almost completely removed any inccidents of verticillium. For my trays or bulk.....i use properly hydrated casing layers of like 1/2 inch - 3/4 inch..... and the occurance of vert has been almost nil.

So now lets put this all together....... We just saw that vert is found in areas of excessive moisture and inadequate air exchange. Our logic tells us that the biggest problem is home mushroom growing in a lack of precise measure ments and regulation of clean air exchange and RH.....thus leading Me to believe that all this vert we see is really because of a lack of sterility, proper humidity levels, or proper air exchange. I.e. that it is far more common that people are doing things slightly wrong (i.e neglect/ or entering growing areas unshowered etc), than it is common that people are doing things exactly correct. Thus, i believe that people/ and there excessively moist environment/casings are the biggest cause of vert.

And it makes sense too....... as vert is one of the biggest pests to mushroom growers.......since it is most likely that most people are doing things less than perfect......it ties hand in hand that vert is so common....

yet the mutations we see here are not verticillium IMO......simply mutations......

#54 the jesus

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 11:39 AM

Well I think we can take the PE out of the discussion, after reading everything I could find on them, I think these globs are pretty common and not vert. Like I said I had seem them a few times before just never this bad. This thread by Texas Bob made me feel better about them though.

http://mycotopia.net...read.php?t=7050

I still have no idea if the redboys have vert. or just mutated though.

#55 Hippie3

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 11:39 AM

it seems a leap to postulate that
the blobs we see are not verticillium when
blobs are a symptom of verticillium,
something that is far more common than mutations.

the simplest explanation is usually the best
and verticillium is the simple explanation for all the observed symptoms
IMO

The second major symptom is a dry bubble – a small, puffball-like mass where the mushroom should be.



#56 the jesus

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 11:50 AM

In these pics from Texas Bobs thread you can see first the blobs, which look basically the same as the ones on my PE. Then you see the fruits, which I would say probably do have vert. because of the dark blotches on the caps in the back. So I guess vert. does seem probable and we can throw the PE back in the discussion.

http://mycotopia.net...95&d=1137803966

http://mycotopia.net...24&d=1138048560

#57 the jesus

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 11:52 AM

It's nice to now that I still may be able to get some nice fruits out of it anyway. So much for trying to get a print though :thumbdown:

#58 python

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 01:21 PM

this could be explained by varying dikaryotic colonies. a cake is made up of several of them if not hundereds. it's what differentiates what we call "sub-strains" which are actually strains (not to be confused with varieties, RB, GT, PFC etc.) when we isolate we are simply removing most of the fruiting possibilities. or various sub-strains/strains.
a cake is numerous dikaryon colonies, not just one big globe of fused mycelium. it is quite possible that only a few of the di' colonies are experiencing the genetic damage. at least visibly.
i truly believe that this "damage" can be passed on throughout the generations. the damage we don't see could be a suseptability to genetic damage from various outside sources. possibly a thinned cellular wall is to blame. a result of chromazome scarring or damage.
i have no written scientific proof of this, but i have done experiments with chemicals in the past that could support the theory.
i'm with python....breed some. bet you'll see more of this down the road. be sure to keep any breeding from these seperate from your known good stuff so you have a control group.


A fully colonized cake is a globe of mycelium. The starting mycelium that colonizes the cake is called primary and is monokaryotic (genetically haploid) and comes from the spores. As they hyphae grow they will encounter other hyphae, which are cpmlimentary to themselves.........they fuze together, dissolving cell walls and transferring their genetic info. At this point we now have dikaryotic mycelia which is binucleate or 2N --- i.e. (Haploid "N" + Haploid "N").........Dikaryotic mycelia covers the fully colonized cakes........This is important because dikaryotic mycelia is usually the only type that will allow for the formation of fruitbodies (known as tertiary mycelia) Dikaryotic mycelia is also faster and stronger than monokaryotic.

However like you mention.......these dikaryotic masses are essentially subspecies of mushrooms.......Yet people will isolate "single spores" and use the presence of clamp connections to tell them that mating has taken place.....thus showing us a new type of strain

Still, dikaryotic mycelia can also mate and exchange gentical information to form a new strain---- and this is known as "anastomosis", and is the harder of the two to complete.

Now, like you mention....you say it is possible for some of the dikaryotic systems to have genetical damage while others have no damage. And this is a good thought, because the colonized substrate is essentially a huge population of individuals, unless it was "clonal" initially. So it is possible that some show effects whereas others do not.

just a thought- Since spores are uninucleate "N" there is a possibility that if chemicals were used during print taking.........that the "1/2" of the chromosomal compliment (one chromosome in haploid) within the spore could have been genetically damaged....causing the fruitbodies to show interesting mutations phenotypically....

This also shows a possible idea of why we can see these things so regularly in strains like PE... Could simply be the accumulation of mutated alleles across time in a population.....such that the phenotype PE often times takes on that knarley bubbly look........But others dont........and that could be because not everyone has the same mutated allele populations...

then we have to also analyze the PE from texas bob.... whereas they initially showed the blobs....but then grew up into perfectly fine looking PE (better than most pictures of PE)....with absolutely no vert.... So if the blobs were because of a vert infection..... and if the blobs are tertiary mycelium (which they are)....and if? you are proposing that they grew from those blobs into the healthy looking PE......then the genetically identical basidiomata from those blobs (as tertiary mycelium is tertiary mycelium), should have produced fruitbodies that should have exhibited the verticillium disease as well.....and they dont in the pictures you showed......Typically....if there is any vert infection, it is seen in a majority of the fruitbodies......So that is also a slightly makeshift guide to diagnosis IMO. Alos vert usually makes slimy, twisted knarley, nasty looking mushrooms IME. There is also the dry bubble phenotype but every picture i have ever seen of the dry bubble has always been a mass of some crazy, crazy looking shit and not simply some blobs that resemble aborts..... but i will look around a little later tonight to see if i can decipher some more info. (i do however know that staments has written, referring to verticillium, that " the more severly infected, especially the young primordia which form sclerotia-like balls of amorphous mycelia" Which shows a possibility that it could be vert.

Some many things could have played a role in the cause --- seems like a good little pet project.....

I do however know that if it is vert.....a sample could be analyzed via microscope as they range around 2 X 2 microns in size.....

It really takes a lot of time and effort to figure these things out and it can be done

#59 python

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 01:39 PM

I would however like to add that i did look at a grow i believe to be the same one (by texas bob) posted by the jesus --- that i just talked about above.....
I was saying above that if bob got those healthier looking fruits from the blobs then they should have shown vert....but they didnt in the pictures shown. However, when i reviewed the whole thread......texasbob actually picked the blobs and bad looking mushrooms and let the rest grow out.... (which is a fairly good procedure if you do find vert)......and he was able to get a flush or so of fairly healthy looking PE...... but as i review the thread more we can see as the mycelia got older and senesced....the phenotype that i commonly relate to vert is clearly visible.... (in the photos --- you'll see the bending mushroom with a spliting stem, or the bubbly, knarley looking mushrooms) Thus leading me to beleive that bob was able to combat/slow the vert by removing the infected ones (which is what you should do) OR that bob just gained the vert as the strain senesced over time..... We will really never know....unless we did some study on it...

Quite perplexing IMO

Either way Jesus --- Id remove any vermiculite casing from your cakes and fruit em on a big ole sheet of foil --- Just dunk at birth, and fruit IMO or you can roll em in dry verm.......just a tip

Best of luck ---

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#60 the jesus

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 01:52 PM

Python I did pretty much just that. Picked the blobs off, dunked and birthed them into a terrarium with lower humidity with no casing. We'll see how they do. I will be sure to update. I am really interested to see what happens.




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