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Antibacterial SOAP Grain Soak Experiment


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#201 reverend trips

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 06:47 PM

You bet:thumbup:

#202 drtask

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 06:51 PM

WBS seems like it could be a tricky one because of the sticky residue it gets. I would drain the soapy water after the soak, rinse the residue off and soak in fresh soapy water for a few minutes before draining again and loading into the jars. I've been meaning to get around to doing just that, but I haven't got around to getting the proper wbs yet...

That would be great if you wanted to give it a go, but don't go experimenting if you can't afford failure. Good luck!


basically that is my plan. follow Doc's WBS tek with the addition of the info in this thread.

And as to affording failure, i have time, and boredom. the only part that may be damaged is my ego:eusa_shif

#203 Sunstar

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 07:50 PM

I dont believe anyone has tried BRF yet either. What do you think Rev. 2 or 3 drops in the water you add to the cake mixture maybe.

#204 TVCasualty

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 08:12 PM

I dont believe anyone has tried BRF yet either. What do you think Rev. 2 or 3 drops in the water you add to the cake mixture maybe.


The soap wouldn't be needed for BRF jars because they already make PC'ing optional.

#205 Sunstar

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 09:07 PM

Hmm good point.I dont know much about BRF. Is it guaranteed 100% to be sterile once it had been steamed?

#206 Hippie3

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 06:50 AM

nothing is
guaranteed
but brf can be done with steam like he said.

#207 hour

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 10:41 AM

seems like this might make microwaving large amounts of grains a possibility too if water content could be nailed?

#208 reverend trips

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 07:43 AM

seems like this might make microwaving large amounts of grains a possibility too if water content could be nailed?


Interesting:bow:

#209 Hippie3

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 07:48 AM

i really doubt it,
'waving creates hotspots
i'd bet you'll get dry areas in the grains...

#210 reverend trips

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 08:01 AM

I guess you would have to do several bursts with shaking in between and hope for the best. You may get lucky, but maybe not every time.

#211 Hippie3

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 08:06 AM

why bother,
> fractional sterilization < makes grain without a pc an option
and no doubt
big pots are cheaper than microwaves...

#212 reverend trips

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 08:17 AM

True, you can fit a whole lot more in a big pot anyway.

#213 Junked

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 11:06 PM

i really doubt it,
'waving creates hotspots
i'd bet you'll get dry areas in the grains...


Needless to say between the various dissolved impurities and the layer of 100% water vapor above the boiling hydrated grain you can see temperatures of 220F internally inside of the grain. There are also microwave pressure cookers that only get a few PSI but this increases the temperatures more.

The reason you need pressure in a pressure cooker is because it will allow the internal temperatures of the grain to approach 200-210+ F meaning that endospores will indeed be cooked. If you are steaming in 212 water it will take a LONG time for the center of jars to reach even 200 F due to heat capacitance and endospores may not be effectively cooked.

In a microwave the skin effect first heats the outer layers of the container to 212-230F depending on the ion concentration of the water... Once that water reaches this temperature the waves are able to propagate further into the substrate directly heating grain, quickly raising the temperature above 200F (this would take quite some time in a steam bath). Prior to pressure cooking canners typically steamed jars for 8 hours in order to preserve them!

Key lessons when using the microwave to sterilize:
Cook in bursts of 3-5 minutes, stir and shake, allow to cool for 1.5-2.5 mins and microwave again 3-5 minutes.
Keep doing this for about 20 minutes.
Make sure there is a very small vent in the Tupperware container meaning that steam is escaping but at a very high velocity and a relatively small volume. You basically want to make the hole small enough that the duct taped lid won’t just explode off the container. Steam should be whistling when you pull it out of the microwave! This high pressure steam can cause SEVERE burns!!!

TRY it! FOAF did it, it worked once (the one time it was tried). FOAF will try it again in the fall. FOAF would appreciate some more people doing this experiment, its great if it works but the key is the repeatability by more than just one person. Microwaves are more common than pressure cookers after all, and this is much more convenient for most than fractional sterilization. Soap should help to make this all the more reliable. FOAF is a good cook though which might help... :headbang:

BTW GREAT info rev!

PS I'm drunk.

#214 TVCasualty

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 08:55 AM

That sounds really dangerous to me. Pulling a superheated piece of tupperware out of a microwave while scalding steam is whistling out of it is just asking for trouble, IMO.

Pressure cookers get the inside of grain to ~250 degrees F (at 15 PSI), way hotter than 200-210, which isn't nearly hot enough to kill the toughest endospores but is adequate for fractional sterilization .

I've never heard of a microwave pressure cooker; time to go searching again!

#215 reverend trips

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 09:18 AM

My foaf is having continued success with the soaped up grain and only steaming once.

Third flush-



Ever wonder what happened to the second batch of rye that was steamed above the boiling water for 2 hours?



He said he didn't want to crowd the original log in his greenhouse and seen PJ doing logs in bins with nice results so he gave it a go. He drilled 4 holes in the bottom of the bin to help get rid of CO2 build up and left the top on a bit crooked and that made a nice environment for the log, fanning twice a day.

A member on another forum suggested that this is probably working for my foaf because his grains may not be harboring any bacterial endospores. I find it hard to believe that my organic rye berries and the no-name popcorn foaf used didn't have any of these endospores, but foaf plans on seeing this experiment through and this will be easy enough to rule out.




He will do another batch and this time he will do it with soap treated rye, along with some that are not treated with the soap at all.

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#216 Hippie3

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 09:32 AM

his grains may not be harboring any bacterial endospores .

:lol:
not bloody likely eh.
here's a simple enough way to rule that out-
deliberately create endospores in your grain
by soaking it a couple days at room temp.
dry that out
and give it your 'treatment'-
if it works
you'll know with certainty
that endospores were destroyed.

#217 reverend trips

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 09:38 AM

not bloddy likely eh.

That's what I thought too.


deliberately create endospores in your grain
by soaking it a couple days at room temp.
dry that out


I'll doo that too, but I fear that the grains may sprout in that amount of time.

#218 Hippie3

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 09:49 AM

sprouting won't hurt anything

#219 hour

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 12:09 AM

well, the main reason i ask about this microwave jazz is due to the tupperware-esce stuff sold everywhere these days that boasts being microwavable.. all sorts of shapes, sizes, etc..

sadly i've never dealt with grains - may still give it a whirl.

#220 nrosselot

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 07:00 PM

just wondering...




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