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Ayahuasca questions & commentary [merged]


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#1 Guest_lupa_*

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Posted 11 November 2004 - 05:17 PM

Hi,
I see someone here, like TehutiRoo as an example, has had long experience with Ayahuasca and gladly with good results for his health as for his spirit.
Now when I read shamanic tales of their drug use,may it be S. Pedro, Aya., or Peyote, all they do is deeply imbued in ritualism and cleansing acts with fumes, herbs, chantings and prayer.
Now, do you ever do anything of the like when you use these kinds of drugs?
In a way, singing somebody else's sacred chants doesn't mean much to me, despite any romantic vision of their wisdom, you can't just borrow what doesn't belong to your soul or culture like this and think it'll work the same. I think it's a bit delusional and rigid minded. But at the same time I think I'd feel a little unconfortable for all the advices usually shamans give for protection against evil spirits or bad energies that could even heavely affect you upon those periods of trip.
How do you deal with such ritualistic issues? Is that of concern at all for you? Or you work something out really personal that proved to work better than any culture specific thing that doesn't really belong to you?

Thanks,
Lupa

#2 philemon

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Posted 11 November 2004 - 07:43 PM

I'm not the most experienced person and actually just had my first ayahuasca experience last night, but since I read your post here I thought i might say something.

I think when people do certain energy cleansing rituals, like smudging, its a way for them to asert their worthey intentions in a visible way.

I think knowing just what you mean is among the most important things of all. I think praying out loud is important because it aserts your meaning better than mere thinking because thoughts have a tendency to drift and be forgotten.

I havent experienced this yet but I hear ayahuasca is very musical. You may just feel the need to sing one day, your own song, with your own meanings verbally expressible or not.

so I think there's a need for physical and vocal asertion, but sometimes music or other art forms are a way to asert and express things that are beyond words. why else would wordless music effect you if it werent communing with you somehow.

cultures all over the world have developed their own techniques and rituals for obtaining and sustaining ecstacy. so it is with indeviduals. It can't hurt to learn what others do but in the end it will be your own instincts intuition and personal inspiration that will take your to greatest heights and distances.

(Message edited by philemon on November 12, 2004)

#3 Guest_tehutiroo_*

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Posted 11 November 2004 - 09:12 PM

It all comes down to culture, religion, and what you hope to get out of the experience.

Shamanism is not a religion as you know religion to be. There is no training beyond the plants, they will teach you what you need to know. Sounds strange, but I have experienced this. Your chants come to you, you find out what works, sometimes what works just happens work for all humans.

As far as ritual goes. You can find Ayahuasca use among traditional catholics, native peoples, Jews, agnostics, etc. Each culture that uses it integrates it into its own culture. It is beyond culture as most cultures have no history of its use. The same goes with the mushroom.

I have seen people from oposite sides of the world describe the same experiences with these things. I believe these experiences are a human thing and not a cultural thing.

A good example of this is Mycotopia itself. We have people form all over the world here. All races, many cultures, many walks of life. There is a unity in a common experience that unites us in our humanity. I do not believe anything else has done this in human history as well as these things do.

Don't get caught up in "religion" and "culture" so much. The reason I have looked at other cultures is that my own can tell me nothing about these things. This knowledge is lost in my culture. You may be very supprised that these "primitive" cultures have a grasp of the human mind that exceeds our own.

If your culture is western, there is nothing in it that could offer you any explanation of these new states of mind. There is if you dig deep. One can find many examples of altered states in western religion, but you and I both know what happens to people who wake up and say they are Jesus.

"In a way, singing somebody else's sacred chants doesn't mean much to me, despite any romantic vision of their wisdom, you can't just borrow what doesn't belong to your soul or culture like this and think it'll work the same. I think it's a bit delusional and rigid minded. But at the same time I think I'd feel a little uncomfortable for all the advices usually shamans give for protection against evil spirits or bad energies that could even heavenly affect you upon those periods of trip."

Are you speaking of icaros? Most icaros are sung by pretty much westernized Christian Ayahuasca users. If you go to Peru your chances of finding a native person brewing and using Ayahuasca are slim. Everyone has their own Icaros. Most are in Spanish, English, Portuguese, or Quechua. The words have little meaning, but the tone and pace of the chant almost always gives the same experience to everyone involved. Again, its a human thing.

I do not know if you believe I am "reaching my hand down to inferior cultures", when I mention native cultures. On the other hand you may be thinking I am somehow "stealing" from them. I have had quite a bit of contact with these cultures and they realy do not mind us learning from them. They have been waiting for along time for us to see them as "humans". There are a few that have wrote scathing letters to me and others regarding what we have wrote in the past, but these are far and few between. From my experience these people believe they are owed some sort of "royalties". The strange part about this is that I have never found this to be true in dealing with native people in person. Usually these protests come from politicians who claim to speak for these people. When I have went to these places I have never heard such protests. Almost all of these people literally tell you more than you want to know. Most open up even farther when I accept their offer to share in these experiences. I always want the real dose they take, I insist and gain their respect. Then I can sit around and rap for hours about the experience with them, it become a common point of reference that leads to even more knowledge.

These people are used to be treated like crap from westerners. There was a time when we used to just go down and observe these "little brown people" as a curiosity. We thought they had nothing to show us until R. Gordan Wasson actually ate the mushroom. You have no idea how crazy this seemed at the time.

In the end the people have much to teach us and we them. I do not see anything they have to teach us as being inferior to what we have to teach them. Our knowledge of technology can improve their lives, and their knowledge of the earth can improve ours. I believe the only way this will happen is if we see each other eye to eye. In reality these native cultures are our fathers, and we are their children. They are the older cultures.

I show respect for every ones vision. Be it a Christian one, a shamanic one etc. It does not matter because we are brought together here, by a human one.

#4 Guest_redmonk_*

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 08:22 AM

Here's a nice quote , by Eduardo Luna , concerning icaros :
"One ayahuasca vision showed me how all levels of existence, including material and non-material levels as thoughts or feelings, have vibration, or sound underneath their surface manifestation. If one can reproduce the sound, vibration, or "song" of that which you are working with, you can enter into it and change it around! The shaman does just this using themselves as an instrument to effect the joining."

#5 Guest_lupa_*

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 12:04 PM

Hi,
thanks all for the interesting analysis!

Don't get caught up in "religion" and "culture" so much.

Well, weirdly enough, I'm not much into my own culture either! I'm Italian, but I don't consider myself catholic as I don't believe in the church and priests, even though I believe there could most probably have been a Jesus Christ around, which I consider as holy (and sometimes even less) as i would consider Siddharta, Naropa or Milarepa to be really holy men! I'm not into the monotheistic culture, but find myself at ease in a politheistic and animistic view of the world!

You may be very supprised that these "primitive" cultures have a grasp of the human mind that exceeds our own.

At the contrary, I know as westerns our minds have been constricted in the narrow consensus reality rules of the limited euclidean physics laws, but it's just such a handicap!
So it's not the case of talking of "inferior cultures" here when mentioning native cultures. I completely agree with this.
Maybe my post was a little equivocal, sorry.

My concern, was not at all regarding the effectiveness of the 'icaros' themselves, but about my allowance to their use! My right to them.
Like, in which right am I to use somebody else's chant? Their gift from the spirits, meant for them only? I thought I could probably end up also making a poor figure in front of the spirits themselves, like if I was cheating in a way. And because, despite all my efforts, it's always up to them if coming or not, I could have probably even pissed'em off!
That was what I meant, my fear, didn't want to sopruse, to be desrespectful and I used the word delusional because I thought no matter how long you try, if they don't want to, they'll never come! So 'rigid minded' was for: you can't expect them to respond to your second hand tricky methods, you fool yourself if you think so!
I also feared that all these 'fears' could themselves be possible limits to their coming too!
So my dilemma: how do you manage?

But then the link to Alan Shoemaker's story (thanks again Redmonk)which I read all just yesterday, where he goes into detail of the use of icaros, and then your various explanations of the use of the vibrational qualities of the icaros themselves, the tone and the pace, despite its words or language, made me realize how indeed it is just a tool, for it is useful, and an act of respect too, but it has its functional side that just serves the purpose, and so many things get clearer now.
Maybe too much reverence of something pushes you further away from it sometimes, instead of getting you closer.
As you say:it's a human thing

Thanks all for your help!

Lupa


#6 Guest_tehutiroo_*

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 07:20 PM

You will only know from experiance with the icaros. These songs are not something that call spirits. They are something that can cause you and most everyone who is drinking Ayahuasca in a session to share the same basic visual experiance. This blows me away.. I have experianced this firsthand. Its a real thing.

#7 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 06:56 AM

the real effect of any ritual is
internal, psychological.
i'm not a believer in magic or spirits that can be manipulated as is so popular in the literature and in certain 'new age' circles.
but a ritual that employs imagery, symbolism
that can touch the human psyche at fundamental levels can highten and focus emotional energy,
it's real purpose and only meaningful effect.
so use what works for you



#8 philemon

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 02:25 AM

In my efforts to make the creating process as low profile as possible I have decided to try the following.

I begin with a veggie cap!
some Rue extract
and a mortar and pestle
then I crush up the chunky rue crystals as best as possible. in my last experiment the big chunks were slow to disolve and had to be smashed invitro. I'd hate for little maoi pebbles to be stuck floating around in me for too long.
after a little bit of careful scooping wallah!

a little black pill!
again I used approximately half of one gram of 10x syrian rue extract.

Then I went to work again on half an ounce of mimosa hostillis.
I tore and twisted it into peices twice as small as before and put paper down to keep as much as the fine powder as possible.
Just on a side note, there came with, in the bark, what looked like an egg sack of some kind! how wonderful!
so then its into the jar and onto the rest... which in order to remain stealth I should probobly not take another picture right now.

I will say though, that I used 200ml of boiling water from the microwave with one teaspoon of lemon juice (just to take the basey edge off).

So for now I let it steep for a few days.

#9 rio

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 10:44 AM

How wonderful!? I hope it is not
another "pest" insect like the
Japanese Beetle!Posted Image

(Message edited by rio on November 12, 2004)

#10 Guest_tehutiroo_*

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 07:36 PM

If you where able to make a mimosa extract, I would use 20 grams, ground fine, simmer in a crock pot for 6 hours, strain, simmer the powder again for 6 hours, and strain again. I would filter this mimosa solution using cotten balls, or a cotten t shirt.

I would very slowly reduce this down to a paste, and then let it air dry in a pyrex dish. Then I would scrape the goo into a pile and put that into a a few "pills".

Take the black pill first then the mimosa pill or pills 30 min or so later...

I have read about hippie doing something like this but I forget where I read it in the archives.

#11 philemon

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 07:53 PM

I left my coffee grinder back home unfortunatley. but at least this demonstrates that you can get a very reasonable effect by using only your bare hands. and that you can fit the quite alot of harmine in one gel cap.

#12 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 06:59 AM

the proof is in the vision,
looking forward to your report
once you get back

#13 philemon

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 05:38 PM

I learned two things from this experience, first, Don't do this unless well rested.

for whatever reason I was quite tired before I even attempted this.

second, filtering the mimosa is more important than I thought.

This Is how it went. At around 11pm N convinced me to play multi-player Halo 2 with him. So we played until quite after his usual bed time so I got started fairly late.

Not to mention the sauce I was cooking for the family splattered think cement hard tomato coagulent all over the stove and counter. this is a sauce that requires night before preperation and the altitude here must make the ejecta more violent. I must have been scraping and scrubbing for an hour.

so finaly I calmed my self down, said a prayer, took the pill and took a shower. after a bit of time I noticed myself become very relaxed and nice with absolutley no stomach upset whatsoever.

I had already filtered the mimosa twice with cotten balls.. and for some reason it was still opaque. I had my last brew totally clear. (must have been the paper) so I filtered it a 3rd time and it was still cloudy. I figured it must have been more concentrated.

well when i drank it It was gritty as hell! and there as a good millimeter of sediment on the bottom. I thought maybe what made me a little ill before was the rue... not the case. this stuff was very tough on my stomach.

I sat in bed with chills for so long and got so tired. it was very uncomfortable. I knew something was kicking in because I started having fever nightmarish visualizations one after the other for quite a while. but dispite how i tried the discomfort and fatigue led to my passing out completely.

I then seemed to wake up. the room was lit up with an eerie yellowish.. more white gold light. it was very dream like and strange but everything was in its correct location (which is unlike most dreams i have). then i opened my eyes! i realized that I had been woken from a deeper sleep by N snoring. this was a very strange thing that happend. I actually still felt ill in my stomach after I opened my eyes. the buzz I had couldnt quite make up for the discomfort I still felt.

the snoring was loud so i put earplugs in, passed out immediatley and had vivid dreams from that point all the way until 2 this afternoon.

So next time its plenty of rest and filtration to cranberry juice clarity.

See in my first experiment my first sips of the brew did make me rather queasy, but after that went away I filtered it really well and then had no stomach upset.

so it would apear mimosa sediment is very disagreeable to human digestion. but straight rue extract seems more or less gentle because it was in my stomach for at least 45 minutes before I put anything else in.

certainly one of my first purchases on my return to my homeland will be a crock pot.

#14 Guest_tehutiroo_*

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 11:12 PM

Rue is very hard on my stomach as is Mimosa. Just the smell of rue makes me sick. There are a few easy teks on doing rue extractions around. I find Rue used this way to be less harsh.

Whole seeds will tear you up bad..

#15 natura

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 10:56 AM

Just lil comment for some recent posts here:

1. MHRB + Rue mix drink doesn't calls "generally" AYAHUASCA.
it's "Mimosahuasca" or "Jurema with rue". True combo is always with B. Caapi tree.

2. When 30% root bark removed, Mimosa tree will dead. For Ecological Reason, Please order zem from certificated shop who buy from US local cultivater.

3. Tannin in Rootbark is very toxic. Make much caution when extract zem long nd use cold water always.

just my opinion.

#16 philemon

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 02:47 PM

yea it was an rue extract that i used anyway. I'd never bother with the seeds straight up. just the smell of the extract was pretty evil.

and yea, I realize when you dont use ayahuasca it shouldn't technically be called ayahuasca. and I bought the mimosa from a certified place. i bought the rue and mimosa from two different suppliers.


#17 Guest_tehutiroo_*

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 03:55 PM

You are right Natura. The term Ayahuasca just means Caapi with nothing else. It can also mean Caapi plus chacruna or what ever else is mixed with it.

#18 Guest_username_*

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Posted 15 November 2004 - 12:02 PM

Out of all of my research that I have done on DMT, I would have to say that the easiest cultivation method would be canary grass? Does anyone agree? I am very new to botanicals scene, so you will have to excuse me. But any input would be greatly appreciated.

Peace, love, and hapiness...someday
-That guy. Posted Image

#19 Guest_tehutiroo_*

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 01:05 AM

It might be good but it is harder to work with and contains DMT, MMT, 5-MeO-DMT and gramine. Gramine is quite toxic and may be responsible for most of the toxic effects possible from phalaris ingestion.

Mimosa is cheap and easy to get.

#20 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 17 November 2004 - 08:08 AM

I would have to say that the easiest cultivation method would be canary grass?
we hear that alot
but it isn't as great in the real world
hard to get a good strain with enough dmt
the 5-meo harshes the experience too.




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