Paradox
©
Fisana

Jump to content


- - - - -

Where is your brew today ?


  • Please log in to reply
56 replies to this topic

#21 Guest_tehutiroo_*

Guest_tehutiroo_*
  • Guest

Posted 28 November 2004 - 10:46 PM

"care to elaborate a bit on that, plz ? "

To me at least it seemed like the liquid cleared faster. I also suspect that less of the good stuff would be lost. If you working with a very concentrated extraction and you lose 10 ml out of 100 ml in the decant its a big deal. If you have a less concentrated extraction and you lose 10ml out of 3 or 4 liters it is not. One could even do 2 processes with the milk and still have very little loss doing it this way. I have always found it best to decant mimosa before I reduce it. LOL! I have no proof that this is the case but common sense seems to indicate my notion is correct.

I am sure there is another thing to use besides the milk to remove the tannins. I will have to do some digging when I have time later in the week.

I will hopefully have time to do a pictoral on the Rue extraction. If more people did this they would have less problems. Rue is cheap compared to Caapi, and it can be used by itself or also with shrooms. I was turned off by it untill I learned to extract it. I still do not like Mimosa, but if a very simple method was created to make it go down better, I would use it. Good Chacruna is expensive, but it goes down O' so smooth...

#22 Guest_hippie3_*

Guest_hippie3_*
  • Guest

Posted 29 November 2004 - 05:40 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

sure there is another thing to use besides the milk to remove the tannins.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
gelatin is mostly protein, too

#23 Guest_duke_*

Guest_duke_*
  • Guest

Posted 29 November 2004 - 06:27 AM

Liquid Gelatin Finings.
100% animal-derived gelatin.

Positively charged fining agent for wine and beer. Can be used alone or in conjunction with kieselsol. The most powerful of the organic finings, gelatin will also remove excess tannins (polyphenolics) and colouring particles (melanoidins) from wine. Use .66 ml per litre (about 15 ml per 23 litres). Use a syringe for accurate measurement. Place gelatin container in hot water to soften contents. Stir into wine or beer thoroughly. Wait two weeks and rack from sediment.

Using more than the recommended amount will remove too much of the colour and flavour compounds from wine and some of the body from beer.

Store under refrigeration

Egg Whites
Positively charged fining for wine. Works similar to gelatin, removing tannins and some colour. Dosage is 1/5 to ½ egg white per 23 litres. Gently beat white with 500 ml of wine and a pinch of salt and stir immediately into wine. Do not beat stiff, just loosen up the white so it will mix into the wine. Wait two weeks and rack. This is the only fining agent used on the great red wines of Burgundy

Gelatin Finings (dried form)
100% animal-derived gelatin

Positively charged fining agent for wine and beer. The most powerful of the organic finings, gelatin will also remove excess tannins (polyphenolics) and colouring particles (melanoidins) from wine. Use 1.5 g per 23 litres of beer, 3 g per 23 litres of wine. Pour 125 ml of boiling water over gelatin powder, stirring to dissolve. Stir thoroughly into wine. 5 ml (one teaspoon) = approximately 3 g.

Using more than the recommended amount will remove too much of the colour and flavour compounds from wine and some of the body from beer.

Store cool and dry

Hmm egg whites seems pretty easy too.

Peace...

#24 Guest_hippie3_*

Guest_hippie3_*
  • Guest

Posted 29 November 2004 - 06:36 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

also suspect that less of the good stuff would be lost.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
what makes you think
that neutralizing the tannins
with proteins
would result in any loss ?

#25 Guest_tehutiroo_*

Guest_tehutiroo_*
  • Guest

Posted 29 November 2004 - 06:23 PM

I do not think the process itself would create a loss. The loss would be in the sediment that drops to the bottem. It makes sense that if you had more volume of liquid the less would be lost...

LOL! Hard to explain, I am running on cold medicine today.. Nasty cold going around.

#26 rio

rio

    Mycotopiate

  • Expired Member
  • 515 posts

Posted 29 November 2004 - 09:56 PM

My brew is still in the mail.
I can't wait to get started!Posted Image

#27 philemon

philemon

    Mycotopiate

  • Expired Member
  • 216 posts

Posted 30 November 2004 - 02:02 PM

hey, roo, this whole salt\rue thing you mentioned. I can't help but be very curious. is this a process to get pure harmine or something?

#28 Guest_tehutiroo_*

Guest_tehutiroo_*
  • Guest

Posted 30 November 2004 - 06:46 PM

From: http://www.erowid.or...traction2.shtml


Summary:

Take rue, powder it, place it water with small amount of acetic acid (distilled vinager) bring to simmer, cool and strain, repeat at least once, on the last batch, add the strained water hot and dissolve a good quantity of non iodized salt into the water, place in fridge/freezer (watch it so it don't freeze and break your container) and cool down to really cold, brownish orange flakes will percipitate out, let set in fridge until flakes settle to bottom, pour off excess liquid, then filter the rest through a coffee filter, wash with cold salt water, dry and scrape off the powder.

This is extremely efficient and I understand is the technique used in the field to test for harmaline.

From "The Alkaloids" Vol II (p393), Mankse:

"The crushed seeds of Peganum Harmala are covered with three times their weight of water containing 30 g of acetic acid per liter of water [white vinegar is about 50g / l or 5 %]. The seeds swell as they absorb the liquid and form a thick dough which is pressed after 2-3 days. The pressed seeds are once more treated as above with twice their weight of dilute acetic acid and, after maceration, the liquid is again pressed out. To the combined liquors, sodium chloride [that's table salt, man] (100g. / liter of liquid) is added to transform the acetates of harmine and harmaline into the hydrochlorides which are insoluble in cold sodium chloride solutions and are precipitated during cooling. The supernatant liquid is siphoned off, the crystalline residue filtered with suction and redissolved in hot water.

Addition of sodium chloride to the filtered solution causes the precipitation of the hydrochlorides as a crystalline mush and this process is repeated until the hydrochlorides have acquired a yellow color (for the purposes of this newsgroup, once is enough). The final product is then recovered by filtration."

Yield is about 4% of dry seed weight.

While this procedure is legal in the U.S. (where harmine and harmaline are currently unscheduled), it is illegal in Canada where harmine and harmaline are Schedule III. These are extremely potent alkaloids. Misuse of them can result in serious, even fatal, consequences. Read the info about MAO inhibitors.


Comments on this method by Dirk:

White vinegar contains 5 to 10% (5% is 50g/l), look at the label, dilute as appropriate. Say you want 500ml of 30g/l (=3%) starting with 8% vinegar you'd add 500x3/8 = 187.5 ml of 8% vinegar to 500-187.5 = 312.5 ml of water.

Supernatant is the liquid standing aove the precipitate. Pour as much as possibly off very carefully.

Well i tried it with suction on a buchner filter with a scintillated glass disk. Sound good no ? Well the filter clogged up immediately. There's still some red gum in there. Don't exactly remember how i got around this; possibly used a coffee filter (that ripped). Next time i think i would look for a finely woven cloth.

After dissolving it in hot water you can filter it again, collect the water and add the right amount of table salt. The amount of water to use should be minimal (minimizing loss because of the harmaline/harmine that doesn't precipitates), but not too little (loss through the amount of liquid that gets retained by the filter paper).

The paper {Hasenfratz et al., Ann. chim (10) 7,15l (1927)} then goes on to describe the separation of harmine from harmaline, but this procedure is slightly more complicated and not necessary for most purposes. The separation requires the use of a microscope and is based on the fact that when a warm aqueous solution of the hydrochlorides is alkalinized with ammonia, harmaline is liberated only after the decomposition of harmine hydrochloride is complete {harmine forms long needles; harmaline forms plates}). After separation the 2 salts are then further purified by recrystalisation of their salts.

I've found that harmaline and harmine are quite stable in acid solutions even at boiling water temperatures, however when the pH is raised to 11 or more boiling will rapidly remove the fluoresce of the solution (an indication that harmaline and harmine are being destroyed under these conditions).


Ann. chim (10) 7,15l (1927)

The separation of harmaline from harmine is based on the fact that when a warm aqueous solution of the hydrochlorides is alkalified with ammonia, harmaline is liberated only after the decomposition of harmine hydrochloride is complete. The appearance of harmaline is readily detected under the microscope since it consists of plates while harmine forms long needles. The addition of ammonia, therefore, is stopped as soon as crystals of harmaline are detected, the harmine is filtered off and the harmaline recovered from the filtrate by the addition of ammonia, The bases are then further purified by recrystallization of their hydrochlorides.


(discussion about this extraction procedure)
> ...My question is this: will this extraction actually work? I didn't think
> acheiving the HCl would be that easy! I've recently been thinking about how to
> conv

ert pure, crystalline, already-extracted freebase of a syrian rue extract
> into the HCl form, but that would be a lot of work (adding the right amount of
> moles to the right amount of harmala freebase--too technical), whereas the
> above method claims to extract the HCl directly from the acetic acid solution.
> I don't know too much chemistry, so pardon my ignorance here. All responses
> would be most appreciated!

I think the driving force for this reaction (the converting to the HCl salt) is the fact that the HCl salt is insoluble. Thus it seems to "disappear" from the right side of the harmaline-acetic salt <--> harmaline-HCl salt equation. So even if the dfisplacement of the acetate by the Cl is not favorable, giving an equilibrium concentration favoring the acetate, as the HCl salt crashes out of solution, the equilibrium will try and be maintained, forcing more of the HCl salt to be formed.

I do think this would work, but Id be careful not to add too much NaCl, or else you will get it crashing out as well when you cool. This will skew your yield and cause you to think you have more harmaline than you have. Cooling slowly may help this problem as well (keeping the solution supersaturated with NaCl instead of precipitating out).

psilo


Bilbo's Comments On Syrian Rue Extraction: (1996)

Do try to *defat* the potion while it is still in the acidic aqueous phase. You can then get rid of the oily residues then, then change the aqueous to a basic solution @ pH9 - 10, and multiply extract THAT into your non polar solvent; evaporate, and try. Be very conservative with measuring your dose. Anything over 100 mg. of extract should be aproached with caution.



(Message edited by tehutiroo on November 30, 2004)

#29 Guest_JT_*

Guest_JT_*
  • Guest

Posted 30 November 2004 - 07:48 PM

thanks for that info , i have 454 grams of rue seeds, i'm going to get busy


#30 Guest_tehutiroo_*

Guest_tehutiroo_*
  • Guest

Posted 30 November 2004 - 09:15 PM

Do perhaps 30 - 50 grams the first time around.. if you make a mistake you will not lose all that much.

#31 Guest_duke_*

Guest_duke_*
  • Guest

Posted 02 December 2004 - 09:49 PM

Posted Image
so that the extract may be apportioned from a 3:1
Posted Image

From Psychedelic Shamanism by Jim DeKorne

Peace...


#32 Guest_hippie3_*

Guest_hippie3_*
  • Guest

Posted 03 December 2004 - 08:11 AM

Posted Image
thx


#33 Guest_duke_*

Guest_duke_*
  • Guest

Posted 03 December 2004 - 05:35 PM

"up for an experiment ?
when you're ready,
split it into two equal portions-
to one
add 1 tablespoon nonfat dry powdered milk. "


Ok this is done, the one on the right.

Posted Image

Peace...

Attached Thumbnails

  • PictureAya 006.jpg


#34 Guest_hippie3_*

Guest_hippie3_*
  • Guest

Posted 03 December 2004 - 05:37 PM

are you going to let it sit awhile as roo suggested ?
how long, if so ?

#35 Guest_duke_*

Guest_duke_*
  • Guest

Posted 03 December 2004 - 06:26 PM

Yes until next weekend atleast.

Peace...

#36 Guest_hippie3_*

Guest_hippie3_*
  • Guest

Posted 03 December 2004 - 06:48 PM

hmm,
i dunno,
milk can ferment so be sure to refridgerate

#37 Guest_duke_*

Guest_duke_*
  • Guest

Posted 03 December 2004 - 07:24 PM

It will stay in the fridge.

Peace...

#38 Guest_hippie3_*

Guest_hippie3_*
  • Guest

Posted 03 December 2004 - 07:28 PM

i'd syphon the liquid off the sediment for the best possible taste.

#39 Guest_g_*

Guest_g_*
  • Guest

Posted 06 December 2004 - 12:53 AM

Has anybody tried this? I'm slow cooking only 24g and I don't see this ever straining through a coffee filter(too viscus) I think Ill try a cotton shirt. I used a hand mixer in the crock pot to mulch the seeds, and it worked great.

Is the 1/3 part lemon juice a good rule of thumb?

#40 Guest_duke_*

Guest_duke_*
  • Guest

Posted 06 December 2004 - 01:08 PM

I have not used this. If you think its not going through a coffee filter may need to add more water.

1/3 part lemon juice I dont think could hurt anything, it does sound a bit high.

What I have used it 1-TBSP of lemon juice concentrate (plastic lemons) to 500 ml distilled water this will get your ph between 4-5.

Peace...







Like Mycotopia? Become a member today!