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The method of Late Casing


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#1 fahtster

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 01:26 AM

hey everyone,

So I've been doing this for awhile now and a few other peeps have tried it and seem to like it. although toadstool i think was having a bit of trouble, though it may be other factors, but I thought it was at least worth making a thread about. It's a pretty simple concept... you simply wait to case until your sub starts knotting and shows a few small pins. heres the reasoning I've come to after some deep thought about why it may be effective... just remember that this is all just what i've found ime and imo... feel free to give it a whirl and see if you like it.

1. If you keep a casing layer off the top of the substrate and expose the sub to light from the time you lay it out, you are initiating knotting on the entirety of the substrate. When you cover the sub with a casing layer, you are cutting off light penetration to some of the sub. This will ultimately give you more fruits, at least some more fruits compared to the alternative.

2. (a) The casing layer should not be colonized very much if at all... thats not what it's for. It's not to hydrate the sub either. it does slow the release of evaporating water from the top of the substrate but while thats an important part it's a bit different than supplying the sub with hydration. The casing is to trap small air pockets of moist air to encourage developing pins and knots.. If the casing layer is colonized, the substrate cannot breathe like it should be able to.

(b) The substrate doesn't use the casing layer after the fruits have developed passed small pins. The fruits themselves act as the fruiting environment. If you think of an uncased bin, does it have a casing layer? The answer is actually yes; the entire rest of the bin is the fruiting environment... when you apply a casing layer, you are basically shrinking that fruiting environment down to the 1/2 inch directly above the substrate. This encourages the knots to form into pins and those pins to go on to develop into small mushrooms.. But then what happens after the fruits grow above the casing layer? Thats when the fruits themselves become the fruits surrounding them as a "casing layer"... kind of a one hand washes the other situation. I mean think about it.. if you put one cake in the middle of a 54 qt bin by itself, do you think that would do as well as if you put 24 cakes in that bin? no, because the cakes use the heat and perspiration of the cakes surrounding them as a fruiting environment. The same reason that the chronic tek works so well.. it's a cake in a small environment. heres an example of what I mean...

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notice in that pic how the casing layer is barely colonized if at all. The substrate at this point has stopped using the casing layer in the sense that the fruits are using it.. but the casing layer is slowing the evaporation of water from the top of the substrate. And since the casing layer was added after the sub switched from the colonizing stage to the fruiting stage, the casing layer is not being consumed which helps the sub breathe. I know you've all noticed that once your bins' fruits reach a certain height, the bins are considerably warmer and moister inside. This is because the fruits are making that environment; basically helping themselves grow.

3. Another reason that this is a good idea is the length of time that the casing material is exposed to the substrate is greatly reduced. This in turns reduces the amount of risk the casing layer imposes on the substrate in harboring contamination. In example...

the amount of time it took this bin to get from here (right when the sub started pinning and the casing was applied)

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to looking like this...

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was a mere four days. And since the time is so short, there should be no reason to add water to the casing after you first apply it.

heres other bins that have been late cased: all are 54 Qt bins except for the last tex bin, thats just a shorter version of the 54 qt.

that same bin in the first pic (SA's) only a couple days later..

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the other two HB bins..

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Tex on popcorn rez that were late cased (this is actually at the point that I accidentally stumbled upon it--not that I'm the first to do it lol--just speaking in my own sense)

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Now, I'm strictly speaking of the bulk and grain casing methods and not for cakes. I actually do use the DECing's for water retention and cake hydration and not the usual method of a casing that the fruits grow "up" through.

I would love to hear any opinions and ideas about this and they are more than welcome. again, this is all just theory and me thinking out loud, but it seems to be working, for myself at least :rasta: thanks yall.

Fahstser

#2 Seee

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 02:25 AM

-Would you suggest making your casing a little bit drier than is recommended, to insure that there are more air pockets

-It might be nice if you could take a before and after
picture of when exactly you are casing
I know we talked about it and you said about 9-10 days
is usually how long you wait
but to have an example (pics) of when the sub is knotty and/or pinny enough (in your experience) to "late-case" would be helpful

When i tried the late case, i think i still applied the casing much too early and plus i had some green start to attack it so, i let it go.

I think you are right on with your info..
The best results ive had is when i would lay down
about a half of an inch of casing, and it would only colonize about a little over 1/4 of it then fruit

So with a thin layer of casing, right before pinning
helps fight against comtams, but increases the importance of timing

I know from asking you, that you usually throw down only about 1/4 an inch of casing for the late casing
Do you think waiting til knots and a pin, then putting on a 1/2 casing
might be better for some one who isnt using an isolate, and fruiting might take longer, or be a bit more unpredictable?
Or do you think a deeper sub, that late in the game, would be detrimental?
This also might depend on sub depth..
How deep are your subs?

#3 fahtster

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 03:06 AM

sure, I'll take pics the next time around which isn't going to be very long of a wait.. probably within the next couple weeks.. I'm making some PE tubs in this same fashion.. that should be interesting.

I should also mention, and I tend to get really spacey about forgetting shit, but I've been doing the bins so that I mix the Hpoo/straw with the spawn for about the bottom three inches... so that theres two qts of spawn left and then I lay those two qts out on the top of the substrate, then I add that inch or so of Hpoo/straw over the top of that.. kind of like I did in that PE cake/bulk grow a little while back, but instead of there being certain spots that they grow from in the case of the cakes lined up, it's a nice full layer of rye under the hpoo/straw.. with no grain on top.. rye performs shitty by itself... so I think that the layer of substrate on top may be acting as a pseudo casing layer and the adding of the late casing is just a helping hand and thats why it can be so thin, ya know what I mean? But that wasn't the case for the Tex bin.. so I don't know. I'll have to play with it more.. I'm kinda hoping others will play around with it too and give their input on their findings to figure out whats really going on. or if the late casing is even really doing anything, ya know? like I said, this is just something that I've been doing and those are the results I've been getting so I'm wondering if that has something to do with it or if it's just the way the bins are layed out or it's because of an isolate or even something else. those above thoughts are just the results of brainstorming.. I was trying not to make it seem like those are definitive answers or a "this is the way it is" kind of attitude. I guess I would just say play with it and see what comes of it and just try and think of whats happening in a engineer type of mind set, ya know? :)

fahtster

#4 Seee

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 03:40 AM

I, by no means, think any of this is fact or the way it should be, sorry if i come off sounding official :D.. but it is fun to think over.. ill experiemnt with it since ive got a few tubs coming up..

#5 MePlusOne

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 05:36 AM

Fahtster, whether it's because of the isolate used or the late casing---THAT IS ONE F***ING AWESOME PINSET!!!!:bow:

You definitely have me interested in this!

I'm curious though: Why is it that a casing added to a colonized bulk substrate dramatically increases yeilds (at least ime) instead of letting a bulk block of colonized substrate fruit directly? I thought the original intent of the casing was to give more moisture to the mycelia and provide some sort of textured, non-nutritional footing for primordia/knots to form?

You definitely got me thinking of experimenting with this on my PR grow I've started... Just to see if it is the late casing that is providing this amazing growth or the chosen isolate, as I am doing a multispore grow.

Damn good work there though!!!!:bow: Got any of those SA prints to get rid of?

#6 camMyco

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 08:42 AM

Wow! I'm going to have to try Tex those are some beautiful fruits. Very nice grow Fahtster, you are a guru.

#7 TVCasualty

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 11:14 AM

Looking good, as usual! :bow:

And with the evidence you presented, I'd say late casing is definitely something to explore further...

#8 abbr.

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 11:18 AM

Hey Fahtster,
I tried to do the late casing on much smaller trays.
I was working with P. Rican, and a mystery strain.(S.A./Tex)
I left the trays in the GH waiting for pins to case,
but, somewhere along the way, I got excited,
thought I saw knots, and cased too early.
You wait until you have an actual pin, correct?
In the end, the trays took a long time to pin.
Do you think adding the casing layer too early
slowed down the process?
Also,
I read in an old thread here that P. Ricans
take about a week longer to pin than other strains.
In my case, the Ricans were slower than the others,
but not a whole week. I understand results vary,
and other peeps maybe didn't notice a difference at all.
So I wasn't sure if the strain had something to do with
the long time, or if it was how I cased "in the middle".
I also ended up with pretty shitty pin sets, but I am
going to try this again.
BTW, the casing was 60/40 Coir / Verm .

#9 PsychoDrogue

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 11:36 AM

your reasoning sounds great and this is definately worth experimentation. i mean. in nature do you ever see a white patch directly exposed to he air/light. the mushrooms almost always appear to be coming directly out of the ground, until you dig down just a little, you never see the myc. mat. so, natures casing layer never really completely colonizes either.

i will be trying this method out as soon as i can get back into a project.

#10 gsmith1981

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 01:52 PM

:eusa_clap

nice

#11 tobynutz

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 03:07 PM

are they cased with straight vermiculite? and also when u said you did REZ with the popcorn u simply addy moist verm to it before you cased it?

#12 golly

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 03:17 PM

Lookin Good Faht...!
Pinning time is also shortened when the casing application is delayed, cause the myc doesn't have to spend time colonizing it, ime....Gotta keep the RH up high though, till cased..Then drop it down..

#13 fahtster

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 05:40 PM

Golly- good point, I usually have a problem with high rh and water pooling, so I didn't mention that, but pin formation does need high rh for good sets. And if there is no casing layer, then like I said, the whole bin needs to be as humid as a casing layer would be to start developing pins. Thanks golly :thumbup:

Abbr- I used plain verm on that Tex bin and a 70/30 mix of verm/coir on the rest of them.. I'm not sure the coir would do anything in this instance except keep the verm from compacting... maybe on the later flushes tho.

I've personally never used the PR strain, but just for that very reason that I've heard that it's PITA to get it to throw off fruits. what kind of substrate were you using? Straight grain casings do seem to have a harder time getting to fruit than something being with the grain...

what if you laid out the grain (I'm just assuming that's what it is for discussion's sake) let it recolonize for a few days, then apply a thin layer of coir, about a 1/4 inch or so.. kinda of like I did with the bulk substrate on top of the grain, then induce pinning conditions, light, higher O2, lower rh.. then after that knots and you see a pins, put the verm/coir mix on top of that in another thin layer (1/4 inch or so) so that you end up with a 1/2 inch casing on the grain, but while the coir is at least some what colonized, but the verm/coir mix won't be.. just a smaller version than above and with the bulk changed out with coir. I guess it would be like patching the entire casing once you see knots and a few pins. :) just an idea. And oh yeah, I did originally case right after I saw the first pin but waited until I saw a few on those HB bins.. not sure if theres a huge difference or not, it would be hard to say.

Tobynutz- read above for first question of yours.. 2. yep, it's about a handful of moist to wet verm for every qt. of grain.

and oh yeah also, If you are going to do straight grain casings... stay away from rye as a grain to use in that situation... rye works great only in conjunction with something else... everything that I've seen in my grows of straight rye and any others on this board at least have been shitty.. they start out well, but then they just crap out. maybe if you used the coir suggestion like I stated, with the coir on top of the rye, but I would do a coir rez also to the rye in that case. it just seems to need something else, I'm not sure if it's some kind of nute deficiency or what... it's weird.

chitwan's on rye...

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PE's on rye...

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PE's where the rye was laid on top of the bulk substrate...

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Now that last one had a few things going on... the air control was messed up and there was bacteria taking over the bin but I still think that the rye being on top was a bad idea and that it would have done better without it on the surface.

Interestingly enough I did a casing experiment in that bin if you remember where I put the coir on then the verm. But I think based on what golly pointed out about the pinning time being lowered due to not having to colonize that verm (putting the coir on first.. letting it colonize and wait for pins, then put the verm on.) the pins would have come sooner. So in all, just use rye in conjunction with something else, imho.. :)

fahtster

#14 Seee

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 06:28 PM

I like how one of the "Similar Threads" for this thread
is about "Managing the water of a mushroom crop"
and that, if late casing were applied right (and successful)
theres no need to really even add any extra water

#15 Guest_floppypeter_*

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 06:48 PM

Late casing works brilliantly IMHO

its been tried a few times with unbelievable success

it's super easy and makes intuitive sense.

add a few ground up tumms to basify. 70/30 coir/verm


Posted Image



#16 fahtster

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 07:17 PM

:bow: it's nice to have some support. lol thanks ;)

Thanks for the tums advice. :headbang:

fahtster

P.S. and please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I came up with this.. that would be ridiculous lol I mean how many peeps have accidentally put a casing on late and had good results? lol just bringing it to attention and giving some ideas on why it might work :thumbup:

#17 abbr.

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 11:37 AM

Abbr- I used plain verm on that Tex bin and a 70/30 mix of verm/coir on the rest of them.. I'm not sure the coir would do anything in this instance except keep the verm from compacting... maybe on the later flushes tho.

I've personally never used the PR strain, but just for that very reason that I've heard that it's PITA to get it to throw off fruits. what kind of substrate were you using? Straight grain casings do seem to have a harder time getting to fruit than something being with the grain...

fahtster


The sub for the P.R. was H-Poo/Straw - 30/70.
I guess the pin set wasn't that bad, but now a
shitload aborted. O well.
And for the casing, I was just wondering,
when I cased these trays, it was kind of halfway
in between.(nice grammer)
They weren't cased right after inc., I planned on waiting
to case, per this tek, but jumped the gun and cased
before seeing pins.
Do you think that would slow pinning?
Or would the pins come when they are ready regardless
of when the casing layer was applied?
That was my original Q, but I could have worded it better.
Thanks Faht

#18 Hippie3

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 12:48 PM

is this pretty much the same as what they were calling over-incubation a while back ?

#19 fahtster

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 11:50 PM

Abbr- I think the "trick" is to have the sub already in pinning mode so that it doesn't colonize the casing layer as quickly... so just from my exp., I would say wait until at least a pin or two

Hip- I'm not sure about that conversation, might have been during one of my leaves.. you got a link? But from just the title of that, I would say you don't necessarily want it to over incubate because you want it to induce a pinning environment and I think incubation might just keep it colonizing.. ya know what I'm saying? But thats just from that title :)

fahtster

#20 tobynutz

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Posted 05 December 2007 - 01:48 AM

in your opinion, what works better? straight verm, or 70/30. and with the 70/30 do you add lime or leave it be?




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