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Copelandia Cyanescens Anomaly?


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#1 jumpinrocks

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Posted 16 December 2007 - 01:18 PM

I need several copelandia Experts with open minds.

About 10 years ago while living in spokane valley my friends found a church 5 blocks from my house that had some very, very potent shrooms growing to the tune of about 2 wet ounces a week all through the middle of the summer. My friends of course just glutted them without really trying to understand what anomaly that really was but I was intrigued to say the least.

I began pouring over books and the internet. Since I have searched thousands of pictures of shrooms and even been in contact with "MJ" all to little or no avail.

The interesting thing is that spokane is in eastern Washington and has a pretty hot and dry climate. Summer temps range between 60 degrees at night to upper 90s-100 in the day. There is no way these temps would support a liberty cap or a stuntz or a baeo or any of the rainy season psilos that are found in WA.


Looks:
The mushrooms were small and brown in infancy with very tall skinny stems where grass was tall and small fat swirly stems where grass was short. After a day old or so mushrooms would be pale and had blue rings or blotches before touch. Stems were fibrous. Cap had no nipple. Upon picking would turn solid blue and if at all over handled whole batch would turn black.

Dose:
A start dose was 6 fresh mushrooms and a healthy visual starter dosage was 1 gram! An eighth was an unthinkable journey wich none of us ever dared with this particular species. Cubensis are a walk in the park compared.

Temp/Season
June - end of August
Night 60-75 F
Day 85-100 F

Substrate
Growing in abundance in a 1 year old lawn that was foam seeded.

After the Church folk realized that it was magic mushrooms we were picking out of their lawns they quickly began to burn them with chemicals and changed their watering cycle to eliminate the occurence. They did this with success unfortunately and i am left with no evidence other than my eye witness.

My Questions are;
Could this have been Copelandia Cyanescens??? If not why??? if so How? and could it be reproduced??? Could they be fruited in a manure enriched lawn in summer temperatures and right watering cycles???

If not Copes what???

I am including some pics from my internet searches that most resemble them. They are not my property I only use them as a reference.

:horse:
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#2 waylitjim

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Posted 16 December 2007 - 01:55 PM

Possibly Panaeolus subbalteatus, but they don't often blue.

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#3 jumpinrocks

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Posted 16 December 2007 - 02:24 PM

I dont think they could have possibly been pan subs. so you think copes are out eh?

#4 Workman

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Posted 16 December 2007 - 03:58 PM

It is possible it was a Copelandia. Paul Stamets recounts an occurance of Panaeolus (Copelandia) cyanescens in Tenino, Washington on page 74 of "Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World". The Copelandia and other fast growing, widespread, dung loving species are very opportunistic and tend to pop up anywhere that conditions are good, even if its only temporary and they can't persist long term. It is too bad that a collection wasn't made for confirmation.

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#5 jumpinrocks

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Posted 16 December 2007 - 04:37 PM

Thanks Workman, good info and good hope. I wonder could this be reproduced.

#6 Workman

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Posted 16 December 2007 - 06:00 PM

You can definately fruit Copelandia outdoors in the PNW in the summer with supplimental watering. Your best bet would be to make a patch by placing colonized manure or straw near a sprinkler system or set up your own sprinkler on a timer. Attempts to innoculate an existing lawn has a low chance of success without supplimentation with colonized substrate. Simply adding spores to a lawn usually fails. Teks intended for outdoor cubensis patches should work with few to any modifications.

#7 mjshroomer

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 12:27 PM

Looks:
The mushrooms were small and brown in infancy with very tall skinny stems where grass was tall and small fat swirly stems where grass was short. After a day old or so mushrooms would be pale and had blue rings or blotches before touch. Stems were fibrous. Cap had no nipple. Upon picking would turn solid blue and if at all over handled whole batch would turn black.

After the Church folk realized that it was magic mushrooms we were picking out of their lawns they quickly began to burn them with chemicals and changed their watering cycle to eliminate the occurence. They did this with success unfortunately and i am left with no evidence other than my eye witness.




First off there is a lot of contradiction in your descriptions and comments about about this species you found on a church lawn.

you said

The mushrooms were small and brown in infancy with very tall skinny stems where grass was tall and small fat swirly stems where grass was short.


True that a mushroom grows taller in grass when the grass is not mowed, however, when the grass is shorter, the shroom is shorter but the stems still stay the same in a given species. A stem can be thin or fat within the same species, but not in the manner in which you described them

Then you said

After a day old or so mushrooms would be pale and had blue rings or blotches before touch.


No Copelandia has blue rings. Period. Bluing is the oxidation of psilocine escaping the flesh of the mushroom after it has been damaged, usually from human handling, although natural elements are known to cause bluing in some specimens of various species in different stages of their natural growth and development.

A blue ring is not always blue and is usually blue due to its separating form the stem as the cap opens and leaves a blue veil remnant on the stem nar where the cap was attached prior to opening and releasing the spores which are chocolate brown to light purple brown.

You said

Stems were fibrous. Cap had no nipple. Upon picking would turn solid blue and if at all over handled whole batch would turn black.


While some Copelandia cyanescens have a light region on the stem with some fibrilose specks, Blue ringers do not. But not all blue ringers have nipples on the caps. Nipples are just a charateristinc of the genera Psilocybe.

Not all Copelandia mushrooms turn blue, but P. baeocystis do when handled. You do not want to squeeze your mushrooms till they turn blue. That is the chemical escaping when exposed to the air. ND blue-black mushrooms are not good for ones which have not been squeezed.

In Seattle, we have observed pounds of blue ringers and baeos on lawns of churches and P. cyanescens in their mulched garden beds.

Since the weather conditions in Spokane are different then along the I-5 corridor, I would say that your mushrooms were in the blue Ringer complex which include, P. stuntzii, P. fimetaria and P. sierrae.


You posted two images from my site, one of Copelandia from Malaysia and the other of Giant 6 inch tall stems and 1 and 1 half inch size caps of Copelandia cyanescens from Florida of which the pantograph is by GGreatOne234. That giant Copelandia does not fit anywhere, any of your description posted above. So it is hard to see what you say you saw, since those giant Copes are not small thin stemmed mushrooms on a lawn. They were picked in manure heaps of decomposing manure at least six weeks old.

Your last paragraph in your post above read

After the Church folk realized that it was magic mushrooms we were picking out of their lawns they quickly began to burn them with chemicals and changed their watering cycle to eliminate the occurence. They did this with success unfortunately and i am left with no evidence other than my eye witness.


How would you know they burned them with chemicals. I cannot believe that statement as it would be utterly stupid and foolish to put any chemical onto a lawn where the owners knew people were picking those mushrooms to get high. Being Christians in a church who put chemicals to stop fungal growth on there lawn could cause innocent people to be poisoned and they would face prosecution for harming people by their acts.

2nd, You would have to spray the whole lawn to get rid of the fungus and I do not believe they would have done that, because it could harm people who would pick there lawns.

You said the lawn produced about two fresh ounces a week. That makes no sense so they went form mushroom to mushroom to find the two fresh ounces growing and then sprayed them with chemicals. IT makes no sense. What kind of church lawn was it. Ten by six feet or was it large lawn and you had to crawl for an hour or more to find two fresh ounces. When they come up they come up, one does not grow this day or that day and then in a week accumulate two fresh ounces. Nothing in your statements make any sense.

I believe I already went over this with yuo in emails or pm somewhere at some site. I gave you my imput and then you go elsewhere to ask.




All I can say is that your descriptions are no good to identify what was on your lawn. Also, you siad

very potent shrooms growing to the tune of about 2 wet ounces a week all through the middle of the summer.


Blue ringers can fruit in 90 degrees weather with lawn sprinkler systems or even a flash thunder shower for ten minutes. We have picked them in Seattle in 89 degree temperatures on numerous occasions.

a lawn producing two ounces a week makes no sense either.

I am attaching a picture of a patch which produces blue ringers all over a lawn, many more than two ounces. A whole lawn with just a small corner which would be less than 1 squared foot of earth can produce half a pound or more.

This photo is of a lawn of blue ringers. The small cluster of blue ringers in the top left hand corner of the image weight approximately three fresh ounces. The image in the photo is one half of a lawn between the sidewalk and the street. There were 16 of these lawns around the condo complex where the photograph was taken at. All had patches of shrooms, so I do not understand it must have taken you an hour to pick two ounces off of this church lawn since two ounces is not much.

Posted Image

In my photo, several pounds per lawn was picked and the one in the top corner, I remember it well because it was a gift for some friends birthday party and 8 people got high off that corner cluster of shrooms

The other photograph of the complete lawn, one of 16 around this condo complex. I might add that you can still see the lawn mower tracks in this stretch of grass on the lawn which was mowed two days before.

Posted Image

You can still see the top left corner of the image with the small three ounce cluster near the curb of the street and the larger clustered one to the right near the sidewalk, and then all of the rest of the shrooms in the one lawn of 16.

You can even see single shrooms sticking up through the grass. Also,if you part the grass are many shrooms just coming up.

Lawn mowers determine the height of the shrooms which only grow to the height of the surrounding grasses.

mjshroomer

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#8 mjshroomer

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 12:38 PM

see above post for full coverage of the threads question

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#9 mjshroomer

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 12:39 PM

here is the other image

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#10 jumpinrocks

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 05:42 PM

MJ

First of all I want to tell you thank you for your time in responding and your lengthy response is quite informative.

Your confusion from my explanation is somewhat what I have experienced myself as I have tried to Identify these mushrooms.
They were as a fact real as many can attest to including myself.
The questions why did some of them show rings? Why did some of them look like the first picture I posted and some look like the second depending on where they were growing on the lawn. I think the fact is that If I ever want to see them again is that I would have to roam the world over and taste test every possible variety to see if they were them. But I guess they are not that important and maybe I should just let it go.

O taste! yeah, They had a mushroomy black licorice nasty taste when fresh and when dried had a deeep dank shroom taste that would last for hours even adding to the entoxication of the mushroom!

About the "Giant Copelandia" picture. I was not aware of exact size of the subject in your picture but they do resemble very closely the Look of the ones I am trying to Identify especially. Some of the mushrooms we had found in this lawn were on the corners of the drainage ditch where the lawn could not be mowed short because of the contour of the ground. These specimens were very tall indeed some up to 6 inches with 1/8 inch thick stems.

About the "Chemical"; These shrooms grew in about 7-10 different places over the whole lawn. And one year upon arrival we noticed each place that they had been growing from regularly was wasted! Dead Brown patches with dirt showing! They had killed the sod as deep as they could. I am not exadurating that. You say Christians wouldnt do that but I think the word "christians" doesnt ever guarantee the goodness of a people. I have known several "christians" to be a brutal and vicious people full of gossip and hatred. The fact that this was a Christian Church has nothing to do with a guarantee that they would not try to poison their lawn. knowingly or unknowingly(by hire). And I assume it was a heavy chemical because of the waste it left their lawn. I was surprised that they were willing to devastate their lawn just to spite the mushroom growing thereon.

anyway Like I said... Thank you MJ. and I hope you are doing well.

JR

#11 jumpinrocks

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 02:32 AM

MJ! I think were getting somewhere...
Don’t get mad and please I would still like your patience and attention. I am not a mycologist obviously and am still in process of even learning correct English.
After reading your response over and over as well as taking a very close look at p Stuntzii pics that you provided in another thread I think understand where I went wrong in my description. And your response has been very helpful. When I said "some have blue rings" I am speaking in misnomer. What my inexperience was trying to say is that some of the caps had blue stained edges all the way around. I was not saying that the stems had rings left over from cap when they detached.
In fact your description that "Copes have no rings Period" makes me think once again in the affirmative of copes being the culprits for the Mushrooms I am speaking of never once on 500 of them had any fragments left on their stems from cap separation.
Once again they Looked nearly Identical to the second picture in my first post that I had found on your website, In bluing, in cap shape old and young, in stem shape ext. I do remember a rare few that seamed to be big twisted freaks from maybe lawn mower damage when young or something.
Stuntziis are most definitely out not a question in my mind.
Do you have any spore prints from the Giant copes like the ones in the picture??? does anyone have access to this strain?

#12 mjshroomer

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 02:28 PM

I have fully answered this threads main question. Again, there is no way you had Copelandia cyanescens on your lawn in Spokane, and it, even the remote possibility that there were some. one fruiting would have been the norm and they would not have appeared again for th as many times as yo said they did.


You mention 500 s[pecimens you collected. Well that would be about a half a pound, a lot more than 2 ounces.

Copelandia species are a tropical and subtropical species.

I only found two specimens in thirty years in manure in Tumwater, Washington that were taxonomically identified as c. cyanescens. In the very same place where Paul found one, one time in forty years.

Your logic about spraying shrooms would be the only reported case of a lawn spraying as occurring in probably 50 years. No one sprays lawns to rid them of mushrooms because people might pick them, get sick and the sprayers would be liable. Your comments on the spraying of the shrooms are heresay. Also, You did not see them spray and so that is not validated as fact. Some home owners have been know to picked them their selves and gotten rid of them.

Without a picture there is never going to be any identification possible in any circumstances.

I have shown people, on numerous occasions, photographs of deadly galerina autumnalis and people swear that they had eaten them and gotten high.

Again. I doubt with my total background in field identification and taxonomy of species and their distribution there is no way possible that the mushrooms on your church lawn were C. cyanescens.

Here is a case history from the Seattle Newspapers of a woman who was told many reasons who could not get rid of the mushrooms on her lawns.

Blue ringers is what they were.

Seattle Post-Intelligencer
Thursday September 30, 1976. Pages 1, 12.

MUSHROOMIN' FIX ON A SURBURBAN LAWN
By S. L. Sanger (P-I Eastside Bureau


Redmond - Mrs X has a little problem with magic mushrooms growing in her yard.
"What's growing in my front yard is not funny. They are loaded with acid," said the 35-year old Redmond mother, who definately did not want her name or address published.
For two years, people of all ages and descriptions have been coming to her yard to pick and eat the mushrooms, and she doesn't ike it. She considers them trespassers.
And she is worried that someone will overdose, or encourage little neighborhood kids to eat them.
No proof has been given that the mushrooms are hallucnogenic, "but the kids sure must think they are," Mrs. X said.
"Kids have been coming to my door stoned. I began to think there must be more to this than meets the eye. I checked around and found out they were eating them to get high," she said.
The mushrooms, short and buttoned-sized, are not easy to see in the short-cropped grass of the manicured lawn. But that has not stopped the mushroom fanciers.
Mrs. X said the mushroom eaters arrive in Cadillacs and sometimes Mercedes Benzes. Some of them are well dressed, some not so well-dress.
"Kids tried to tell me they were picking the mushrooms for a biology class. Them I realized school hadn't even started.
"Every morning I go out and pick the mushrooms, but two hours later we have a new crop. I am a very busy person. I don't have the time to pick mushrooms all day," she said.
Mrs. X said the problem has now spread to other parts of her neighborhood, and the next door neighbors have mushrooms even more potent than hers.
"I tell people to stop picking, but it is the same old garbage. All the time I am telling them to stop, they are picking like mad."
"We can;t have a guard dog because we would be liable if it bit someone. We can't poison the mushrooms for the same reason, and we can't have a fence because there is a zoning restriction against Fences."
It is too expensive to plow up the yard, and her kids have to play someplace, she said. Mrs. X said the best thing would be a hard freeze, but that probably won't happen untill late October
Gerald Yaeger, a Redmond police detective, said some of Mrs. X's mushrooms are at a state laboratory for determination if they are hallucinogenic.
"Sometimes I think kids eat a few mushrooms and drink a fifth of Vodka, then tell other kids what a great high they got from mushrooms," Yaweger said.
The detective said his department has run 20 pounds of mushrooms through the state laboratory and so far has not found any that were hallucinogenic.
A person in possession of hallucinogenic mushrooms could be prosecutes under the controlled substance law, the detective said.
Greg Wright, 26, who operates Eastside mushroom hunts and who describes himself as an expert mushroom eater, said he ate some of Mrs. X's mushrooms.
"My mind focused on one thing at a time, very vivid sensations of sight and sound and thinking it was mostly a pleasant experience, unless I started thinking about something unpleasant," he said.
Dr. Daniel Stuntz, Unifersioty of Wshington biology professor and scientific adviser to the Puget Sound Mycological (mushroom study) Society, had this to say: "If you don't know what you are eating, don't eat it."





mjshroomer



AS for the large Copelandia mushrooms from Florida, I doubt that GGereatOne234 has any prints of those specimens. The picture is four or five years old.

You claimed that:

taste! yeah, They had a mushroomy black licorice nasty taste when fresh and when dried had a deeep dank shroom taste that would last for hours even adding to the entoxication of the mushroom!


Copelandia species taste about the same as cubes and other manured mushrooms. They are stringy but you are the only person in the history of the mushrooms to claim they taste like licorice and that the dried ones taste remained in your mouth for hours. The taste of the shrooms is usually gone within a half an hour after consumption of any wild shroom which contains psilocine and/or psilocybine, So that statement also makes no sense.
No psilocybian mushrooms have a "Black licorice" taste to them.

I am through responding to this thread

Good luck and have a shroomy day

#13 jumpinrocks

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 02:55 PM

MJ or whoever may be interested,

If not copelandia or Panaleous copleandia
If not Stuntzii

Than WHAT mushroom which would match the second picture in my opening post could it possibly be???????

Growing in a foam seeded Church lawn
daily flushes all summer
Spokane WA
No Ring on stem
Heavy blueing turning black if slightly overhandled
One dry grahm a most potent and visual dose.

#14 jumpinrocks

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 03:17 PM

deleted

#15 jumpinrocks

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 04:16 PM

About the amount of mushrooms. I previously said that 2 wet ounces a week were harvested. I must be wrong in my measurements.

To put it into context every 2-3 days would produce enough to cover two pieces of college ruled paper.

That is 4-5 covered papers per week

Also from memory Caps were 1/4 to 1 1/2 and stems were 1-2 8th inches thick by 2-6 inches tall.

I know this is a ridiculous measurement but for me a un experienced person without a scale and still in highschool at the time that is all I have. And that is what I witnessed collected repeatedly for several months.

I bank all my bucks that this indeed was Copelandia Cyanescens based on all of the endless psilocybe pictures I have poured over in the last ten years.

This coming year I am going to visit that church as often as I can in hopes of finding a straggler or two. I will collect a sporeprint of as many specimens that I find and i will work with Workman on the issue if he will.

Two years ago upon a visit through spokane, I found another burned patch of grass at the church so maybe just maybe they are still struggling with occasional fruitings. If I find my research to be affirmative I will document it and process it appropriately and that will be my contribution to modern mycology and knowledge of psilocybe producing mushrooms and their habitats.
---
I will do my best to keep this thread posted on my findings if any 2008.

Take care you all and wish me luck please.

JR

#16 golly

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 04:55 PM

Yeah JR - your best bet is to try and find a sample next summer..Sounds like it was a great score ,what ever they were..

#17 Hippie3

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 06:24 PM

mj IS an authority, an expert recognized around the world.
being 'open-minded' is highly over-rated when it comes to
matters of fact- this isn't like 'what's the best band ever?' type of question where one opinion is a good as any other.
in any event
your reply breaks the rule of civility
and so will be heavily edited .

#18 Nzo

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 06:56 PM

should have taken some photos
maybe they were pan foenisecii

#19 the_chosen_one

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 11:52 PM

probably stunzii or pan sub if anything. i have seen both in spokane and a few other cities in eastern washington. including wenatchee and yakima. all extreme climates in summer, but just follow the sprinklers.

the turf and seed used in several locations of the state is grown in the kent and auburn valley's of western washington. the stunzii capital of the world. many mulch suppliers are also based in the puget sound region as well and are greatly responsible for the spreading of these mushrooms in developed areas.

#20 jumpinrocks

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 03:02 AM

It will be interesting to see who is right if that ever comes about. I like to believe in the extraordinary and based on the descriptions I think it probably was a rare fruit of Copes. what else could exibit such blueing? Besides, there were no remnant rings on stems so how could it be stuntzi's? And I've never seen any pictures of pan subs turning blue as described.




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