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Some rice and popcorn help please??


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#1 TrickyNicky

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 11:13 AM

Hello all, my foaf has reciently began cultivating mushrooms again and has ran into a few problems. he has been to busy the last few months and has moved to a different area. So, now that he has moved in he has built a new incubator(the old tub in a tub was given to a friend) and some pf/brf jars were colonised. Here is were my foaf has had problems.

Some organic popcorn and rie were prepared by soaking the grains sepratly for 24 hours, rinsed and drained for 30 min and pc'd for 60 min at 15 psi in quart jars. a quick LC siringe was made with his blender/pint jar and some of a colonised pf cake. the popcorn jars were innoculated and colonised in 5 days
the rie/brown rice jars only colonised the top half or were splotchy.
some of the jars were used in g2g transfer to more popcorn(in a glove box) and some were spawned to more rie or wholegrain brown rice (organic from the local co-op)
Now, he has used this grain and equipment before with great results, all but the incubator that was just built, and is not sure what he is doing wrong. I will mention that from what I have seen, I think that he has had wet spot or Bacillus? in the jars, also in the spawning. also, the grains spawned were sterilised not pasturised(is this a bad idea? even in g2g in glove box?)
So, what I am asking is, could you take a look at these pictures and let me know what you think?
All of the lc popcorn jars did well, half of the LC rie rice jars did ok and the spawned grains have devoloped that sour smell and splotchy colonization also.

the incubator is a rubbermaid tub with a small elec heater and a dark blanket over it. It maintains constant 80 degreesF

Do the rie rice jars look to wet?

also, the tops of the jars are 3 layer alum foil and they are left loose

Are the grains not being prepared properly?

He had great results before and is getting dissapointed with all the problems now any helpful comments from this great community would be greatly appreciated.

#2 Leary's Ghost

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 11:19 AM

dont see any pictures here

#3 TrickyNicky

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 11:19 AM

Here are the pics

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#4 Sunstar

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 11:21 AM

60 mins might not have been enough . 90 is what is normally used

#5 Hippie3

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 11:26 AM

your lc likely was mildly contam'd
which problem increased over time
as spawned or g2g.

#6 TrickyNicky

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 12:07 PM

The popcorn LC jars did great until I spawned them again or did g2g in glove box
also, is it wrong to use sterilized grain instead of pasturized for spawn?

Thanks, hip I belive you are right, I think that during one of the spawn prep or innoc contams were intraduced and spread.

is a grain soak then simmer then pc the best process? I had problems with just a soak and pc (not enough moisture?)

#7 Hippie3

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 12:29 PM

i simmer first, to soften the seed hull, then remove heat and let it soak up to swell full but in the end it's time in the pc that really makes or breaks you, a full 90 minutes is pretty much the MINIMUM time for grains , imo. and if problems have been plaguing you go 120 minutes [be sure to have enough water in the pc, running dry is unacceptable]

#8 Guest_katfish_*

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 12:22 AM

I like to see that my popcorn that I was trying to use was growing similar to your pictures. It seems the mycelium always grows on the edges of the kernal first and then later moves to the middle to cover the entire kernal. Unfortunatly I ended up with some green mold that formed the same exact way about halfway through. I am using a PC that is 11.6 PSI and I can never seem to get a all clean jar run. half or more always get the dreded green mold. I read that you don't have to soak popcorn and just fill jars up with popcorn, then fill jar with water 1/4 inch above the popcorn level in the jar, close and PC. While PCin the popcorn takes on the water in the jar and hydrates leaving nothing but soaked, hydrated corn at the end of the PCin. Does this sound right? It would make things so much easier than soaking 24 hours before hand, You could make as many jars as needed right on the spot with unprepared materials.

katfish

#9 Leary's Ghost

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 01:07 AM

i agree w/ everything thats been said and add:

grain doesn't look too wet to me but the jars do seem too full. leaving 1/2 to 1/3 empty not only makes it easier to shake if you need to increase the innoc points but i think the air space allows for more robust initial colinization before contams might get a hold.

what kind of barrier you got on top of the jars? did i understand correctly just a triple layer of foil that is loose? i would think that's no good if so. need a better barrier w/ a filter for FAE like a lid w/ tyvek or polyfil or somethin. the vaults are loaded with options.

i think better FAE and longer sterilization times will help.

GL
LG

#10 TrickyNicky

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 11:08 AM

well, today the surviving jars look better, and I bought a tyvek suit and replaced the tinfoil lids with double layer tyvek cutouts. I also think that FAE has not been what it could be.

What I have used in the past with good results was just three layers of tin foil secured by the metal canning ring just threaded over the top. the tinfoil stays intacked through the PCing and is easy to seal after innoc with tape. I usually loosen jar rings after growth appears.

Katfish, I remember seeing that tec and can't seem to find it in the vault. I am intrested but not sure how well it works. if someone can find it or give some pointers I might try it, it sounds much easier tha n what I do now.

I am preparing more popcorn jars today and plan on pcing for 90 min. the corn has been soaking since yesterday morning. also, I will leave the jars 1/4 empty. (Thanks, LG I used to do this but wanted to cram more grain less jars ya know but they are awful to shake.)

Thanks all for the help so far, Its great to have some other opinions

#11 TrickyNicky

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 12:10 PM

Here is how they look

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#12 Dr_T

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 12:49 PM

I could just be me- but I don't think that looks good.
Anybody else have an opinion?

#13 Leary's Ghost

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 06:46 PM

I could just be me- but I don't think that looks good.
Anybody else have an opinion?


couple of dark spots there look kinda disconcerting. sometimes it can be bruised myc, but there are some dark ones that look bad.

#14 Leary's Ghost

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 07:17 PM

What I have used in the past with good results was just three layers of tin foil secured by the metal canning ring just threaded over the top. the tinfoil stays intacked through the PCing and is easy to seal after innoc with tape. I usually loosen jar rings after growth appears.


prollem with that is that there is no barrier against comtams and almost no FAE. if you losen the lids enough to get adequate FAE, you'll let contams in. that is what the dry layer of verm is for in the original pf cake tek. you got no dry layer of verm here so you really need some kind 'o filter in the lid.

tyvek will work but best to have it in place during PC. did you sterilize the tyvek before you replaced the foil with it? GB wont do you any good if your tyvek got contams on it, dig?

also, no reason to use double layer of tyvek unless you got an airspace between them. single layer is plenty for a filter. prollem with a single layer (or a double layer if all you've done is press 2 pieces on top of each other) is that the grain can come in contact with one side and the other is in direct contact with the outside air. you can pull it off if you are careful, but an airspace is much safer. i used to drill a 1/2" hole in the lid. RTV silicon a washer to the top and bottom and RTV a layer of tyvek on each side of the washer. now your damp grains bang up against the bottom side of the tyvek but there is an airspace before the next layer. the top layer stays dry that way. it is a very effective FAE/contam barrier. there are a few teks somewhere in the vaults but i cant seem to find the link right now.

you could also just go to autoclavable bags w/ the filter patch already in. way easier and, IMHO, far superior to jars.


I am preparing more popcorn jars today and plan on pcing for 90 min. the corn has been soaking since yesterday morning. also, I will leave the jars 1/4 empty. (Thanks, LG I used to do this but wanted to cram more grain less jars ya know but they are awful to shake.)

Thanks all for the help so far, Its great to have some other opinions


:horse:dont get too greedy on filling those jars. if you are gonna spawn to a substrate, a half dozen of those jars half full will give you a shit pile (pun intended) of colonized substrate-of-your-choice. plenty o' shrooms grasshopper.:horse::horse:

a generous airspace not only makes it easier to shake, but its a little resevour of sterile fresh air for your myc to enjoy while it is making a foothold before it starts to get choaked off from FAE by an inferior filter design. much easier to recover a stalled jar the more its colonized, dig? you are way better off making an extra jar or two and leaving the space--trust me.:horse:

GL
LG

#15 TrickyNicky

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 12:47 PM

And the winner is: FAE

I have certianly learned a valuable lesson in the importance of FAE. Today all of the remaining jars that looked ok yesterday are doing great after installing tyvek tops. also, I reduced the layer to one tyvek patch (Thanks) I realized that the previous incubator and location allowed for better FAE and that is why I had good results just loosining the lids. (dedicated room and very clean tile and countertops)

Also, I have innoc. new jars of popcorn (multispore) PCed for 90 min and will post pic's with results.

five out of eighteen jars contamed so far due to dirty LC or contams spread through G2G

Again, Thanks for all the help

here are some good jars:

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#16 TrickyNicky

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 12:51 PM

Here are the contamed jars:

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