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Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains??


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#41 righteous

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 04:01 PM

The venom is indeed expensive to buy, and I believe that it degrades with time.....
Additionally you need a permit to possess it in a lot of places(deadly poison ya know)

However, if you've got balls or you feel like channeling Steve Irwin:pirate::pirate::pirate:, these snakes are quite cheap to purchase and can be found at just about any reptile/exotic animal tradeshow. A safer alternative would be that you most likely could also pay the snakeowner to milk it for you.

(a lot of poisonous snakehandlers milk and sell venom;
there's a good bit of money to be made this way)

A little venom goes a really long way. (a single drop does multiple agar plates if I calculated right based on that link's methodology)

#42 warriorsoul

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 04:20 PM

No go, on snakes in the house.

#43 warriorsoul

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 07:49 PM

The jars are ready for birthing. I lost the falbino and pe6 jar to trich. I had couple other cakes going already, so its not a big deal.temps 75-80.17 days.

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#44 warriorsoul

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:36 PM

Bump for posterity. :eusa_whis

#45 morfin-56

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:45 PM

What happened to this?
84894d1209169956-would-work-creating-hybrid-strains-picture-686.jpg
I've never seen a jar end up like that before, is that normal if the jar is not filled all the way up and no verm layer?

I'm not gonna lie, when I read the first post I thought it was pretty stupid, but after reading your posts after that it seemed like an ingenious idea.

#46 warriorsoul

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:57 PM

What happened to this?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]265583[/ATTACH]
I've never seen a jar end up like that before, is that normal if the jar is not filled all the way up and no verm layer?

I'm not gonna lie, when I read the first post I thought it was pretty stupid, but after reading your posts after that it seemed like an ingenious idea.



I like to play dumb at first, I get more players that way. :teeth:

That is what hybrid mycelium looks like, it's super fast and rhizomorphic.

It' certainly works, but I'm gonna leave the rest of it up to you 'all. Just because. :lol:

#47 mate0x

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:02 PM

I am curious if you found a pheno that interested you

#48 hyphaenation

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:03 PM

Gotta love 4 year old thread bumps !

:thumbup:

#49 MushroomPortal

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:04 PM

haha when this thread was started I was but a fledgling tripper. I thought mushrooms got you high because they poisoned you, and I thought people grew them in shoeboxes under their beds.

What was the consensus on this? Do most people say you can't consistently make hybrids by mixing two different types of spores in water? It can't be that hard to make a hybrid. I mean, they hybridize in the wild all the time, under all kinds of crazy conditions. It's beneficial for them to hybridize, so one would think that the spores would hybridize readily.

#50 warriorsoul

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:08 PM

Yes. I didn't present it like I could have because of personal reasons.

I think I killed off half a dozen members with this thread alone. :special:

#51 hyphaenation

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:19 PM

And now for some links ...

You just knew I'd go for the bait:
HYBRIDIZATION

More related info:

https://mycotopia.ne...-questions.html

well, first you'll need to Isolate a few monokaryons. it can be quite a job in itself.. speaking labor and material. if you get lucky, like Workman and myself did, you'll get one pretty fast. BUT.. the next step is being able to identify it. thus my signature lol. you'll want to look for something that looks far finer than normal myc. more like a fine, almost clear, silk. it tends to grow more slowly than dikaryon myc as well, but not always.

** a scope could be used at this point to confirm that one has a monokaryon Isolate , but is not a requirement as noted in our creation of Falbino.

once you have this/these you can now embark on several paths. my experience lies mostly with dilution isolation teks and natural mating, but i have done a lot of research. especially in what those clever and very secretive commercial folks are up to. this is where the concept of snake venom and ethylene glycol are derived from.. like i said, secretive. very little info as to ratios etc to be found. i have yet to use either myself.

however, carvacrol *the slip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carvacrol is of my own ideas and seems to be showing some promise. spores seem to have little problem germinating in a diluted environment and the myc grows ok.. but i have yet to really put it to the test. ratios are yet err.. unestablished ;) hopefully i'll have something to report in the coming months.

as i said, many paths to choose from. my advise at this point would to be attempt a varietal cross via monokaryon isolates first.. then move onto mild solvent type stuff when you become familiar with that. this will actually give you a standard by which to work so that you can gauge the differences.

know your subject well. :)



Albino-Breeding links:

http://mycotopia.net...orks (tribute))PF albino from Sporeworks (tribute))

http://mycotopia.net...lbino Breeding)PF albino Breeding)

http://mycotopia.net...te cubensis))PF albino Breeding (quest for an all white cubensis))
--------------------------

TCO said:

As we have seen with RR and sheds PE6 and the PF albino crosses that Workman and I are working on, strains can be maniplulated to some extent. I don't know that it could be labelled as strain creation but some new strains may be the result of our tampering. At least with albino . The PE6 seems to be fairly stable and I think it's earned the right to be called a strain . I believe that some of todays strains have been created by similar work and breeding but the majority of strains are created naturally and discovered by people like Mushroom John.

Oh, and to answer your question mushaman, no, not quite the same or as easy. With the PE6 snake venom was used on the spores to allow the exchange of dna and with the albino crosses a monokaryotic mycelial Isolate was used.


From TCO: strain ctreation

http://mycotopia.net...train Creation)
-----------------------------

"Mixing ungerminated spores together should allow mating between strains of the same species (avoid mixing premade syringes since the spores can germinate within the syringe before use). Since most cubensis look relatively the same and an individual spore print from a single strain can generate a range of phenotypes, you need to use very different looking strains of cubensis to be certain of hybridization (and yes, I would call these hybrids in the broadest sense, just like hybrid corn which is also not an interspecies or intergeneric cross).

The obvious problem is distinguishing hybrids from selfed strains. Randomly mixing spores is a crude method and you are going to end up with a mixture of the original strains and hopefully some hybrids (assuming they are compatible). The hybrids won't necessarily look intermediate between the two original strains. If the parents were relatively true breeding without much variability, all of the hybrids are going to look about the same as each other (uniform) as they will each get 50% of their genes from each parent. Only later generations from spores will give you that mix of traits you are looking for (see below)

My initial hybrid work was between the PF albino and the PE strains, both true breeding from spores and easily distinguished from other strains. The cross looked like a normal unremarkable cubensis lacking the penis shaped caps and albinism of the parents. In this case the normal appearance helped confirm the cross but you can imagine that a normal looking cubensis isn't going to stand out in most other crosses. Controlled crosses are better in this regard since you can be sure the result is a hybrid no matter what it looks like.

Another issue is that you can't perpetuate the hybrid if you use the hybrid's spores to start the next generation. There will be all sorts of new strains revealed in the F2 generation as the mix of genes in the hybrid are recombined. Only after selecting for the traits you want for about 6 generations will the features you are after stabilize into a distinct strain (I use strain in the broadest sense even if its not technically correct).

The fact that a hybrid won't breed true is a method that vegetable seed suppliers count on for repeated sales and to discourage seed saving (the bastards). A package of hybrid corn seed will generate a superior and uniform corn crop. If you save that corn crop to replant the next season (to save money), you will end up with all sorts of mixed traits and not all will be as good as the original hybrid seed. This is bad for farmers but can be fun for the home gardener.

So the short answer is, yes it will work but you may not be able to tell. Hybrids tend to show hybrid vigor so even if you aren't sure or can't prove you were successful with the hybridization you may still end up with a superior strain . A good clue that a hybrid is successful is if the F2 generation from the hybrid's spores produces a wide range of phenotypes.

Go for it and have fun.

From Workman : strain creation

http://mycotopia.net...brid Strains??)


Workman's Psilocybe Cubensis Breeding Method

https://mycotopia.ne...ing-method.html
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#52 oiseau

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:19 AM

I like very much your view and experience. A key aspect to me is your quote about AB mating system, which promotes parental diversity. Heck, we all know how nature thrives by diversity!

I believe main reason why the awesomeness of mixing spores gets so much overlooked, is the fear of contam. I mean using a single cap as a spore giver feels less likely to contam. However, doing so for many generations, while viable, brings a risk of genetic loss of vigor. See for examples what happenned to heavilly breeded dogs race...

The best indicator from the cross successes will be the increased vigor an speed of growth. That's cooperation, in no way competition! Your picture speeks for itself! I read another thread on shroomery where the poster made the same experiment, albeit with weaker parental strains, and all the mixed jars grew so fast that he had to did put emphasis on the rhizomorphicness of this mycelium! Sadly he didn't post pics, but this really makes sense!

You made a really good point on the equivalent freshness of spores. I had idea to experiment this by letting caps from different 'strains' drop spores simultanously in sterile water, to prevent spore aggregates to form from the same caps. Your way of layering sporeprint seems to work good ! . Did you use any technique to maximize spore dispersion?

I have not made this experience yet, but it really makes sense! And i have GT and Cambodian jars running currently, so when they successfull i'll definately print spores layered togather as your did, and also directly together in water!

Forgive me if i sounds like a jerk newbie who can't even spell, but for the sake of cultivated species i believe that we all needs to think again on these subjects!

Edited by oiseau, 14 February 2013 - 06:04 AM.


#53 wildedibles

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:32 AM

Thanks for your interest I havent seen this thread yet and it is great :)
I was thinking they breed in the wild too so why not ? :)

#54 Spooner

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:32 AM

Reading old threads is very informative. Love the idea of letting them fight it out naturally without prreselecion on agar. Agar allows myc selection but might falsely eliminate the actual fruiting results you are looking for. Great read, have you managed to get anything you really like other than some increased vigor?


Very interesting that the single strain got contams but not the faster growing cross.

Edited by Spooner, 14 February 2013 - 06:54 AM.


#55 warriorsoul

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:41 PM

I let this project go after I stopped growing actives. However, these same principle can also be used with edibles; which can show a greater diversity in phenotype than most cubensis strains. :thumbup:

#56 shroomnoobie

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 12:28 AM

did u fruit these??
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