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Your new National ID Card, with chips!


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#41 Guest_Peter Cottontail_*

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 02:24 PM

Interesting quote from Hitler...I hadn't read that one yet.

Ben Franklin and Thomas Paine....Those damn liberal founding fathers, what could they have been thinking?
RR

#42 Hippie3

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 02:56 PM

they proly were thinking
"gee, it's the 1700's."

no such thing as
suitcase-sized nuclear weapons or weapon-ized anthrax
or sarin or VX to worry about.
but it ain't the late 18th century any more,
it's early in the 21st
and it's a whole new ballgame.

anyone can play the quote game,
pull out great sounding gems
uttered in difference circumstances
and misapplied to a new situation.
toss in a hitler soundbite
and you have the classic internet pseudo-debate.

yet the fact remains that you were wrong
when you claimed that RF chips were already mandated by law.
and that 'story' that began the thread
is,
as i stated,
misleading, inaccurate
and meant to manipulate public perception
even at the expense of truth.

#43 Ali

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 03:09 PM

I am not sure AND I am bad ate understanding what "Thomas?" information means, but I believe the "RealID" Title (XIII?) was removed from the final version of the bill that was passed.

A couple of things though if it was not, again, I am not a politician, but:

1. ALL 50 states have to implement or the system is USELESS. I understand that they will hold the states funind hostage untill they conform, but I believe at least one wil hold out. I would move there. ;)

2. MY father will not allow me to not start a revolution if this becomes reality. The local VFW and American Legion Halls will become recruiting centers for said revolutionaries. I go to both to help out sometimes and those good old boys have NO INTENTION of standing by or letting us stand by and watch this happen.

3. Put the card in a microwave for 15 seconds and bye bye data at least. Try it with the 'smart card' in you satellitte reciever... wait, no don't unless you wanna buy a new one.

IT isn't that bad yet.

#44 viraljimmy

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 05:59 AM

I think the quotes were apt. Apt I say.

And how was the article biased or misleading?

#45 Hippie3

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 06:16 AM

i really should not have to tell you
but since you cannot see
here's an example of bias

Is this a national ID card?

It depends on whom you ask. Barry Steinhardt, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's technology and liberty program, says: "It's going to result in everyone, from the 7-Eleven store to the bank and airlines, demanding to see the ID card. They're going to scan it in. They're going to have all the data on it from the front of the card...It's going to be not just a national ID card but a national database."


note the question
Is this a national ID card?
yet only one view is offered,
"it's going to be not just a national ID card but a national database"
which is biased,
and, since the drivers license is not a national id card,
misleading.

#46 Davet

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 08:54 AM

they proly were thinking
"gee, it's the 1700's."

no such thing as
suitcase-sized nuclear weapons or weapon-ized anthrax
or sarin or VX to worry about.
but it ain't the late 18th century any more,
it's early in the 21st
and it's a whole new ballgame.

>Snip<


Fear. Be afraid, be really afraid! Last December when I was in DC it was so sad to see how it has become a city of fear. Many European city's have experienced much more terrorism but the leaders don't do out of their ways to actually make the citizenship afraid. Simple but practical ways of dealing with security threats are possible, but I chose freedom over security every time. Fear keeps these guys in office and lets them into your house.
I work with undercover cops, I know that most law enforcement types believe the crap being spewed from the Whitehouse, to them everyone is a terrorist or criminal until proven otherwise. I have attached a doc regarding official response to Terrorist threats. I am only glad that I am not a Arab or a Muslim:

"Terrorist Threats to the U.S. Homeland Reporting Guide
Note
This document is UNCLASSIFIED//FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY (U//FOUO). It contains information that may be exempt from public release under the Freedom of Information Act (5 U.S.C. 552). It is to be controlled, stored, handled, transmitted, distributed, and disposed of in accordance with DHS and FBI policy relating to FOUO information and is not to be released other than to law enforcement and homeland security personnel, without prior approval of an authorized DHS or FBI official. Information in this document is NOT for general public dissemination and must remain under government control. Its dissemination should be limited to official government use and is not authorized for electronic dissemination or transfer to nongovernmental channels or media."

If Hip removes the doc from this site just PM me and I will FTP it to you.

Peace is not what those in power want.

DaveT

Attached Files



#47 shedthemonkey

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 08:23 PM

Ummm...Did Yall know there is a microchip in Jackson's eye in the new 20's?

http://www.prisonpla...agsexplode.html

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#48 Hippie3

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 06:43 AM

more sleight-of-hand.
rather than address the issues i raised
instead just mock the very concept of
precaution by labelling it as 'fear'
as if the 'fear' was not very rational and well founded.
tell me please
a single european city
where a single terrorist attack
killed nearly 3,000 civilians.
ah, but you cannot
because there is no parallel
so once again you seek to
mislead by comparing the
euro response to minor attacks
with the american response to a major attack.

#49 Davet

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 08:30 AM

more sleight-of-hand.
rather than address the issues i raised
instead just mock the very concept of
precaution by labelling it as 'fear'
as if the 'fear' was not very rational and well founded.
tell me please
a single european city
where a single terrorist attack
killed nearly 3,000 civilians.
ah, but you cannot
because there is no parallel
so once again you seek to
mislead by comparing the
euro response to minor attacks
with the american response to a major attack.


No not sleight-of-hand. But you are correct in that the events of 911 were unprecedented. But we were one country off in our invasion. Saudi Arabia was where we should have gone not Iraq. Also I wonder why tourists need to go through metal detectors and put bags through x-ray machines and be patted down to visit the National Botanical gardens? Maybe I was planning to blow up the orchid collection (it wasn't that way in July of 2001, the last time I was there)? We are in a police state now more than ever. The Police are being told that there are radical factions who will incite violence during peaceful protests. That is why they must take extreme measures and very aggressive tactics during any protests. That is why they need the Patriot act to to spy on radical organizers who dare appose the official stance of the United States.

911 was a very masterful attack. The United States has responded just the way they had planed. Maybe even better, as I don't know if they thought we would go into Iraq without a plan and create a whole new recruiting and training ground for jahdis.

But to keep on subject, any kind of national ID is very unconstitutional. The Feds can require minimum standards, but must walk that path very carefully. The Social security number has been misused and abused since its inception.
The right to privacy is one right I will fight for, even if that means taking up arms against the State. American apathy and fear is getting out of hand. People, we have to keep fighting for what we have. And that doesn't mean invading other nations. I personally believe that every American should have had there taxes increased to pay for this war and that their eligible kids should be the ones fighting it. Then maybe they would wakeup and actually care about what is happening.

Just my rambling take, that’s all.


Peace,

DaveT

#50 vrooota

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 08:46 AM

I'm considering moving out of this country before I'm stuck here.

seriously bro, its almost time

#51 Hippie3

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 09:14 AM

I wonder why tourists need to go through metal detectors and put bags through x-ray machines and be patted down to visit the National Botanical gardens?


because terrorism isn't about
hitting hard military targets
for strategic effect.
it's about hitting
soft civilian targets
like a national garden
for the maximum
psychological effect.
a cannister of sarin
opened in the garden
would have little military significance
but the political/economic impact
would be huge.
so it is wise to take precautions
not just at sensitive infrastructure installations
but also at symbolic places with little other target value.
they seek to shock,
and gassing a bunch of tourists at the garden
would give them that desired effect.
so it is a target.
what is disturbing to me
is the high number of people
who seem to think
that their personal convenience
outweighs the public safety.
that is,
until the shit hits the fan
then they blame the govt.
for not protecting them
even though
they tied the govt's hands.

#52 Guest_Peter Cottontail_*

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 09:38 AM

quote:
" you seek to
mislead by comparing the
euro response to minor attacks
with the american response to a major attack."

I agree.

However, since we're on the subject of misleading, 17 or so of the 19 hijackers on 911 were from Saudi Arabia. None were from Iraq. My son risking his life in Iraq, while dubya gets cozy with the saudis at his ranch in Texas, and the CIA protects Luis Posada Carriles, a known and admitted terrorist who blew up a plane, killing 73 people. Please defend that, if you can.
RR

#53 Hippie3

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 09:45 AM

easily done.
there was no need to invade a country
already under american occupation
for well over a decade.
the saudis know who holds their leash
but the reality on the ground with their
own people and neighbors compells them
to play a delicate balancing act
in public they often bite the hand that feeds
but in private they curl up at their master's feet.
right now the entire saudi security apparatus
is working harder than ever before
serving american interests,
protecting oil wells and pipelines, etc.
to have blown all that up
and invade
as we did to iraq would have been insane.
now iraq,
that was far different.
saddam no longer served us
and bit at us constantly.
we had nothing to lose by destroying him
and we got the chance to send a message
we knocked down the most populous, most powerful arab nation on earth
in a matter of just a short few days
and now we see the
the lion of the arabs
pacing in his cage in his underpants.
i do not think i'm the only person on earth
to understand the message being sent.

#54 Davet

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 10:27 AM

because terrorism isn't about
hitting hard military targets
for strategic effect.
it's about hitting
soft civilian targets
like a national garden
for the maximum
psychological effect.
a cannister of sarin
opened in the garden
would have little military significance
but the political/economic impact
would be huge.
so it is wise to take precautions
not just at sensitive infrastructure installations
but also at symbolic places with little other target value.
they seek to shock,
and gassing a bunch of tourists at the garden
would give them that desired effect.
so it is a target.
what is disturbing to me
is the high number of people
who seem to think
that their personal convenience
outweighs the public safety.
that is,
until the shit hits the fan
then they blame the govt.
for not protecting them
even though
they tied the govt's hands.


I could have very easily done just that. These so-called security precautions are a bunch of bullshit, they are easily circumvented by someone who wants too, they are only for show. Hell, the lack of security in the Metro was appalling. This is an area where real damage could be done. There are so many ways to hit the soft targets that this approach will never succeed. You have to go after the causes of Terrorism. Of course the United States of America is the greatest State sponsor of Terrorism.

Rodger, sorry to hear that your son is in Iraq, I wish him safe return. I have a friend who has been over there many times as a journalist for Night Ridder. Media out of there has been so sanitized. Before he can visit the site of a roadside bombing the military "cleans" it up, even the blood stains are washed away, not to mention any casualties. Travel for a western journalist outside of a security detail is suicide in most of Iraq. I guess the only good thing about it is it has slowed down the Bush admin from bombing Iran, but then they may still be mad enough to do that this summer.

Madness reigns. If folks cannot see throught the smoke screens then it is already to late.

DaveT

#55 Davet

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 10:38 AM

easily done.
there was no need to invade a country
already under american occupation
for well over a decade.
the saudis know who holds their leash
but the reality on the ground with their
own people and neighbors compells them
to play a delicate balancing act
in public they often bite the hand that feeds
but in private they curl up at their master's feet.
right now the entire saudi security apparatus
is working harder than ever before
serving american interests,
protecting oil wells and pipelines, etc.
to have blown all that up
and invade
as we did to iraq would have been insane.
now iraq,
that was far different.
saddam no longer served us
and bit at us constantly.
we had nothing to lose by destroying him
and we got the chance to send a message
we knocked down the most populous, most powerful arab nation on earth
in a matter of just a short few days
and now we see the
the lion of the arabs
pacing in his cage in his underpants.
i do not think i'm the only person on earth
to understand the message being sent.



Actually those pictures of Sadam only enrages the Muslim world. They believe in justice. Justice would be a quick trial and then putting him to death, not humiliating him. Of course a quick trial hasn't happened. When and if he goes on trial it will be interesting how they deal with the fact the US was helpful to him in most everyone of his most gravest attacts against the Kurd's or The Shi'a.

DaveT

#56 shedthemonkey

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 10:47 AM

snip..

Madness reigns. If folks cannot see throught the smoke screens then it is already to late.

DaveT


Too late for what? Where will you go where the US Govt. will not indirectly control your life?

The US is the latest in a long line of empires and will maintain the role of only Military Superpower through force and subjugation. The European Union is rivaling the US in Economic power, but that is secondary to Military options. He with the biggest guns always wins.

The world has shrunk in the last 50 years and will continue to shrink until the US has Hegemony over all the important areas. Wanna go live the hermit's life in some god-forsaken desert or isolated area? Fine. Go. But you will give up the toys and comforts that go with being on top of the heap. You will live in more fear than here in the US.

I grew up dirt poor on a little farm in Oregon. No indoor plumbing till I was about 15. I KNOW what poverty is about. Ain't a lot of fun. You CAN be happy living a subsistance lifestyle with a loving family and minimal exposure to the rest of the area. Possible but very difficult. Move to somewhere you don't speak the local language and you are asking for a machete in the face in the middle of the night. Tribal hardwiring always ends with violence against the outsiders when times get tough...and boy oh boy are times likely to get tough in the rest of the world very soon.

IMHO it is better to live a double life, outwardly being part of the society and work quietly to bring light into the darkness and quietly save who you can with love and compassion. If that makes me un unethical two faced bastard, so be it. But I don't see how turning your back on the world is helpful (or practical) and going up against the machine directly will make you grist for the mill--suicide really.

I don't have a good answer for how to deal with the evils perpetrated in my name as a US Citizen, but becoming one of the victims sure doesn't appeal.

Just my tuppence

#57 Bromius

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 11:18 AM

The constitution was written by rich white guys. The present events were set in motion by the people that wrote the Constitution. Terrorism, communism, states seceding... all convenient excuses to concentrate federal power. Those in power will always want more. As long as they kick down enough to the people that keep them in power, things will continue in that direction.

As for RFID shit in ID's, I think I'll make some money and start selling RF shielded wallets. Subverting authority AND making money- that's America baby!

#58 Davet

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 11:24 AM

Too late for what? Where will you go where the US Govt. will not indirectly control your life?

The US is the latest in a long line of empires and will maintain the role of only Military Superpower through force and subjugation. The European Union is rivaling the US in Economic power, but that is secondary to Military options. He with the biggest guns always wins.

The world has shrunk in the last 50 years and will continue to shrink until the US has Hegemony over all the important areas. Wanna go live the hermit's life in some god-forsaken desert or isolated area? Fine. Go. But you will give up the toys and comforts that go with being on top of the heap. You will live in more fear than here in the US.

I grew up dirt poor on a little farm in Oregon. No indoor plumbing till I was about 15. I KNOW what poverty is about. Ain't a lot of fun. You CAN be happy living a subsistance lifestyle with a loving family and minimal exposure to the rest of the area. Possible but very difficult. Move to somewhere you don't speak the local language and you are asking for a machete in the face in the middle of the night. Tribal hardwiring always ends with violence against the outsiders when times get tough...and boy oh boy are times likely to get tough in the rest of the world very soon.

IMHO it is better to live a double life, outwardly being part of the society and work quietly to bring light into the darkness and quietly save who you can with love and compassion. If that makes me un unethical two faced bastard, so be it. But I don't see how turning your back on the world is helpful (or practical) and going up against the machine directly will make you grist for the mill--suicide really.

I don't have a good answer for how to deal with the evils perpetrated in my name as a US Citizen, but becoming one of the victims sure doesn't appeal.

Just my tuppence



I am not planning on moving out of the US. I have already looked into that and it is not practical. I too grew up in poverty. I no longer live in poverty and do live a double life. It just pisses me off. But you are not unethical; you do what needs to be done to survive. That’s what I do. Unfortunately I have to be careful about becoming to much of an activist because of my job. I am working on a way to change this, but meanwhile I am a slave and must act covertly. The American military may be mighty, but if you don't use your guns correctly and are over confident they won't help you. Russia and China are slowly building a military alliance, if that actually pans out that may be interesting. I think the most important thing is to vote for progressive candidates even if that means voting third party and letting the conservative win. I used to vote strictly Dem. No more. We need to support more candidates in the US that are like George Galloway, see this short interview with him:
http://www.counterpu...gy05232005.html

Peace,

DaveT

#59 dead_diver

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 11:51 AM

I wonder what would happen to the chip if you popped the card into the microwave for a few seconds? Magnetic strips are easy to wipe clean ;)

#60 vrooota

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 11:54 AM

Obviously, I don't plan on giving up what I like about the way I live, and it is probably correct that the US gov will have more and more direct or indirect control over the world in the future. However its easier to live free if there's lots of space between you and your potential enemies.




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