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Sunflower Seed/ Trash experiment


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#21 hyphaenation

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 12:08 PM

Most interesting...

#22 Myc

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 06:53 PM

So I got around to dissecting a colonized grain kernel as well as a sunflower seed.
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Material was selected from the jar
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A kernel of each grain was selected and cut in half
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It appears as though only the tough exterior of the outer shell of the sunflower seed was colonized.
The mycelium looks as though it penetrated the grain kernel and was present all the way through.
I suppose this is why the sunflower seeds appear to colonize faster. The mycelium simply runs on the outside of the shell rather than penetrating.
I wonder if the sunflower seed, once exposed and rendered accesible to the mycelium, will colonize based upon a hypothesis proposed earlier in this thread.
The dissected material was placed on a clean petri dish, wrapped with parafilm, and will be allowed to incubate further.
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Will post results later.
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#23 Phidell

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 07:35 PM

Nice work Myc, what date was mycelium noticeable in the 'cleaned' seed jar?

#24 Myc

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 07:55 PM

what date was mycelium noticeable in the 'cleaned' seed jar?

Germination date?
I'm not sure.
I innoculated and just let 'em go for awhile before checking.

#25 TVCasualty

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 08:37 AM

It appears as though only the tough exterior of the outer shell of the sunflower seed was colonized.


That's what I've observed as well.

I suppose this is why the sunflower seeds appear to colonize faster. The mycelium simply runs on the outside of the shell rather than penetrating.
I wonder if the sunflower seed, once exposed and rendered accesible to the mycelium, will colonize based upon a hypothesis proposed earlier in this thread.


Eventually the mycelium gets into the seeds, but if I'm trying to grow with maximum efficiency in terms of time vs. overall yield the substrate is in the compost pile by then so their benefit is negligible (at best). That's one reason why I advocate removing them since they make up roughly 20% of the mass of the WBS. I'd rather fill that space with something easier to digest!

I'd really like to see a substrate made of 100% sunflower seeds fruit; I think that would be fascinating.

Great experiments in this thread, keep up the good work!
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#26 Hippie3

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 08:47 AM

no surprise,
mycellia will grow on just about any wet surface,
sunflower seeds or cardboard or even sticky fly trap tape.
but that truth in no way implies that
any of those are good choices for fruiting substrate.

#27 TVCasualty

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 09:00 AM

It is worth saying though that transfers have been of g2g clones, and I actually break the full size qt. jars to fruit them anfter they start pinning - they do contam fairly quick and the flushes aren't that great so instead of just letting it go down the drain it's worth it for the 2-4 dry g that I get each considering the jar is only worth about $.75.


Do you break all your jars or just the ones with sunflower seeds?

At 2 to 4 dry grams per quart, I'd have to say it would be much more worthwhile to give the seeds to the birds and squirrels and leave your jars intact. Over the course of several grows, this would become apparent as your overall yield vs. time ratio would improve significantly. Consider the yield per quart you get with clean WBS compared with the 2-4 dry grams from the seeds... Shouldn't all the jars be filled with the highest-yielding substrate?

#28 mycoking

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 06:56 PM

*Do you break all your jars or just the ones with sunflower seeds?

I only break pinning sunflower seed jars, then let them grow from there. Jars are only like $9 or $10 a dozen, less if you are resourceful, so in the end that case of sf jars can be a ounce to an ounce-and-a-half dry so it's worth it to hammer it. Now multiply that 2-4 g per jar times all the crap you're gonna throw away anyway - is it worth it to break as many jars as you can? To me it is.

#29 Myc

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 10:27 PM

that case of sf jars can be a ounce to an ounce-and-a-half dry so it's worth it to hammer it. Now multiply that 2-4 g per jar times all the crap you're gonna throw away anyway - is it worth it to break as many jars as you can? To me it is.


My personal method is to take one jar (usually quart)
Spawn it forward to h-poo or compost in a plastic tub (cat litter tray @ dollar store - $1.00)
Yeild at least 2oz. dry from the first two flushes
Store those and move on to the next species
No broken jars - no wasted materials -
other than the debated "trash" which will be addressed in a more tightly controlled experiment as soon as my isolate has finished on LC.
Then I can re-use my jars for other "pointless" experimentation :D
But that's just me.
The only consumables I have to replace in spawn culture
are spawn bags and the occasional canning jar lid
maybe some Glad Press-n-Seal

The point of the whole excersise here is efficiency
having jars year around to chronically baby-sit isn't very efficient IMHO.
I find that the yeild from just one tub
spawned with just one quart jar
produces more than enough for me
and still leaves me enough to give away
and that supply usually lasts them a very long time.
All from one humble - unbroken, reusable jar.

#30 TVCasualty

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 08:38 AM

Jars are only like $9 or $10 a dozen, less if you are resourceful, so in the end that case of sf jars can be a ounce to an ounce-and-a-half dry so it's worth it to hammer it. Now multiply that 2-4 g per jar times all the crap you're gonna throw away anyway - is it worth it to break as many jars as you can? To me it is.


So if I understand this correctly, from a case of jars you get somewhere between 24-48 grams (at 2 to 4 g per jar) and you have to buy a new case of jars at the end. Filling, sterilizing, and inoculating jars of sunflower seeds takes the same amount of time, effort, and electricity (or gas) as prepping clean WBS or rye or whatever. So, since the average yield I get from a quart of WBS is around 20 dry grams per quart (when using whole grain cased in trays and before I toss them outside where I usually get even more flushes), that same case of jars conservatively gives me over 8.5 ounces dry in the same amount of time you're getting less than 2.

To me, then, tossing out the trash means increasing my yield in the same amount of space and time by roughly 500%. That's the basis for my opinion that the seeds should be strained out and tossed. In terms of efficiency it's a significant enough difference to justify the effort of removing them and using more nutrient dense substrates, especially since many WBS blends are 20% sunflower seeds which is almost like throwing away 2 of every 10 quarts after going to the trouble of filling, PC'ing, and inoculating them.

#31 Hippie3

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 08:51 AM

yeah, at only 2-4 gm per quart
even the lowliest neglected pf cake can beat that
in a 1/2 pint jar.

#32 mycoking

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 12:43 AM

Don't know how to answer this question without some serious self-incrimination on this open online forum that anyone can view so for argument sake I concede and say you win.

#33 captmaui

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 04:05 AM

yeah, at only 2-4 gm per quart
even the lowliest neglected pf cake can beat that
in a 1/2 pint jar.


Wow really how many gms can one expect from a 1/2 pint jar from a single flush of let's say Puerto Rican ???

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 05:17 AM

puerto rican or shmorto freakin a cubie is a cubie and the average yield cracker dry off a 1/2pt pf cake is about 7g. and your mileage will and can vary dependant upon your choice of isolate or if usin spores to inoc.

#35 TVCasualty

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 09:01 AM

shmorto freakin?
:eusa_thin

If ya got one to spare, send me a print... sounds interesting. :D

#36 TVCasualty

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 09:17 AM

Don't know how to answer this question without some serious self-incrimination on this open online forum that anyone can view so for argument sake I concede and say you win.


They're after you, are they?

My own economic analysis of all this was apparently couched in slightly too-subtle terms otherwise you might have noticed that what I've said applies to your situation. My goal in all this is to help people create the highest yields the most efficiently. There is a well-established way to do that, namely analyzing every tiny detail of the process just like large corporations do; a totally unrelated example might be if you can shave ten seconds off a manufacturing process and cut costs by $0.01 per unit and you're making 100,000 stupid gadgets to sell to Mal-Wart you've just saved 278 man-hours (and the labor costs of those hours) plus $1000 in material costs. Everything you save you get to keep, so in this example you've just improved the efficiency of your factory by a significant amount although the individual per-unit savings seem insignificant. A penny here and a penny there soon add up to real money.

Besides, if you were really looking to 'get the Wal-Mart account' (that is, grow a shitload), you'd be using bags instead of jars anyhow.

#37 mestophilies

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 03:14 PM

Don't know how to answer this question without some serious self-incrimination on this open online forum that anyone can view so for argument sake I concede and say you win.

Just my 2 cents but isn't a little more incriminating in your area to be buying tons of jars like that? I know my local suppliers always look at someone a little strange if they can that damn much.:weedpoke:

#38 Myc

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 06:59 PM

Don't know how to answer this question without some serious self-incrimination on this open online forum that anyone can view so for argument sake I concede and say you win.


Yeah man, we're not trying to beat you up.
If you'll notice, my results actually support some of your comments.
And I stated that each time with my posts in as unbiased manner as possible.
It's just that your argument is flawed
yet you hung on doggedly in the face of
(and you must concede this to your inner most self)
a much stronger argument in favor of efficiency.

The purpose of my research is to help the next guy.
As I was helped when I arrived here
With SOLID information
Based in FACT
And backed up with emperical data - photos, detailed method, controls, etc.
If the next guy wants to smash jars as you've suggested,
then more power to that individual - last time I looked out the door
It was still a reasonably free country. ;)

#39 mestophilies

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 07:41 PM

Dude I realize I may have come across a little harsh I was just trying to point out that it looks a little more conspicuous sp? to keep buying more and more jars. If I offended at all I do cry mercy and forgiveness!!:rasta:

#40 mycoking

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 03:05 AM

I don't take offense at all to anything anyone has said... And now that I think about it, my 2-4 dry is a bit too conservative, maybe 2-4 on flush 1 and more on subsequent - all I'm saying is that, Casualty I understand you're efficiency point, but I have tried to get every single seed out of a bag before and it can take hours and I've noticed very little difference between getting rid of the crap and leaving it in - I do have a contam ratio that is very high, but I can "absorb" it because of the amount I do and the space I have to work with. I just use wbs as spawn anyway.




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