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Gymnopilus spp grow


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#1 mycot

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 02:19 AM

On Identification
So why is this grow in the identification forum. Well quiet frankly I'm not sure what gym spp it is that I'm growing here so any help with ID appreciated.
Late spring/earlysummer a single fruitbody was originally found growing on a tree branch in semi-shade, quiet beautiful the center reddish and more cream colored towards the margins. On closer examination in sunlight bluish tinges were noted on the cream portions. (A pic of this fruitbody appears in the first image below in dried form, I didn't have a camera at the time of collection)

At the time since I was unfamiliar with any pic that even came close I figured that the chances of it being an unnamed species was extremely high. Next I thought that it resembled pics of G. igniculus.(I rule out the possibility of it being this species due to season found and presence of an annulus)(I also wish I could find a better description of this species).
Now I'm focusing on it possibly being G. purpuratus of which Workmans pic of G. purpuratus at Wikipeadia (of which identity Workman is unsure of) although appearing different comes closest.

The problems of this identification are several. The pictures of purpuratus on the net all look different from one another. It is difficult to find good descriptions of G. purpuratus and where they exist they often conflict.
My specimen was found in the wrong season for it being G. purpuratus.(Whether this totally rules out the possibility I'm unsure of)

The Grow
Since there aren't many gym grows recorded I proceeded largely by guesswork and experimentation. Started out with gill fragments on agar and myc transfered to popcorn. Athough collonsing well enough a mold contam started in one corner and I rescued a good kernal and placed it on a small bed of pecan woodchips. From this point on the grow entirely proceeded under unsterile conditions. :headbang:
Since it was proceeding well enough with no great hurry and I was busy on several projects I addopted the strategy of when an amount of woodchips was colonised I would mix it with an equal proportion of fresh woodchips effectively doubling the amount each time I did this. (I also added some verm for water retention)Chips were simply boiled in water for a few minutes and drained.
The last time I performed this doubling I added a small amount of organic potting mix to the formula which the myc seems to like. I feel that I should have added quite a bit more than I did.

A thin casing was applied consisting of organic potting mix, some coir for fluffyness and a little ground activated charcoal. Pins after one week of casing colonisation. The grow is now in its second flush of which pics appear below. Further pics including some from the first flush will be posted shortly.

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  • nightflyer and ideaman like this

#2 golly

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 07:30 AM

Very nice Mycot..!
Can't id 'em but that's a pretty impressive regeneration...:bow:

#3 Alan Rockefeller

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 07:46 PM

A macro shot of the cap would be cool, and maybe a cross section of one of those.

What type of veil does it end up having?

What color are the gills when it is just a pin?

How about the color of the flesh?

Is it bitter?

#4 mycot

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 08:30 AM

Very nice Mycot..!
Can't id 'em but that's a pretty impressive regeneration...:bow:

Yeah they're just in late pinning stage so id is tough. :lol:
Thanks for the compliment Golly, coming from you it means a lot.
This is my first time working with woodlovers , I'm liking them and I've learned a lot, and there are a number of areas where I can see that the grow could be improved. This species/strain? pins madly (the pics above are mostly reduced but the more closely one looks the more one seems to find, if I did a pin dance I'd be dancing into next year :lol:) so I dont think the grow is near full potential. Becuase of inexperience with woodlovers in this grow I feel that insufficient moisture in the cake/casing at full colonisation time has been a factor not allowing this grows optimum potential. I would also modify the casing layer to allow better water holding capacity/wettability(same goes with substate) and retention.
Forgot to mention in the first post that this species is Australian.
The trays dimentions here are 7 X 11 X 3 inches depth of casing.
OK, here are pics at harvest of second flush taken 24 hours after the pics above. Enjoy. :)

I think that you'll enjoy the pics in answering some key questions Alan.
Under the conditions of the grow fruits are lighter in color and may vary in other ways from those under more natural conditions.(An outdoor grow in season would be cool)
The veil seems to be somewhere between fibriilose and thinly membranus.
On the stem it breaks away fibrilose but the sometimes large veil remnants on the caps margins (at least in this grow) particularly of some individaul fruits seem quite membranus and a membrane seems stretch from cap margin to stem just before it breaks.
The gills color in the young fruits seem a waxy light cream yellow. At pinning stage I'd imagine it being even lighter but haven't looked yet.
The flesh color seems lemon cream. These pics aren't too bad for color accuracy.
Pics from the first flush an some other interesting pics still to come.

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#5 Guest_psi_*

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 09:52 AM

An Australian species huh? That got my interest, not that this hadn't already. Beautiful grow, looks like you're doing really well for a first time with woodlovers. Do you know whether ithey're active and what state in Australia they came from?

#6 mycot

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 10:15 AM

Species presently unidentified, only seen this spp once, could be something new, G. purpuratus or something very closely related to purps. There are a couple of interesting papers online where genetic sequencing was used to group gymnopilus spp into clades. I'll look up and post links if somebody doesn't beat me to it. A little fagged at present. Found in the state of New South Wales.
Judged active by bluish tinges on cap when first found and more recently bluing at the base of stem when bruised.

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 10:34 AM

Hmmm, very interesting indeed. I'm in NSW, but so far I've only found Gymnopilus junonius as far as gyms go.

#8 mycot

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 01:48 AM

We have a good number of named Gym species including known actives in Aus. The Royal Botanic Gardens Melbourne website has a good fungi section, and interactive catalog, exellent for begining any reasearch into Australian fungi. I beleive there are also additional unnamed active gyms in Aus, going by past experiences before I knew shit about growing. One species that hasn't been listed as active G. norfolkensis I'd place even money on being active.
The two interesting papers on genetic grouping of gym spp into clades are at :-
http://mycologia.org...t/95/6/1204.pdf
the other at http://cybertruffle.org.uk/cyberliber/
go to journals :- Mycotaxon 84. pp 93-110. The latter site is great, I just wish they had more.

Forgot to mention ( I'll probably remember other shit that I should've mentioned :lol:) that the grow was done with a RH of 92%, temp of 27C with constant Fae.

Some more pics. The first three are of the first flush, a baby food jar grow that I ran concurrantly to monitor the main grow, cause you cant see through foil and another pic from the second flush.

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#9 mjshroomer

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 01:59 AM

Gymnopilus purpuratus is only known of from three countries in the world.
It is natural to the Austral Floral Zone which includes Australia, Argentina and in Germany, the latter came from pig manure and compost imported into Germany from Argentina in the mid 1980s.
About G. purpuratus (from Musrhoom John's Shroom World and Magic Mushrooms of Australia and New Zealand:

4. Gymnopilus Purpuratus (Cooke & Masse) Singer
Documented Locations: Port Lincoln and Big Swamp, South Australia; Victoria, and Western Australia. This species was first identified from Australia by mycologist John Burton Cleland as Flammula Purpurata (derived from the Latin Purpuratus, clad in purple). Cleland described this species as being found on fallen trunks of wood. Gymnopilus purpuratus is an agaric identified from the austral floral zone and was first collected in Chile. This species blues easily, taste very bitter and is probably hallucinogenic. 1992 chemical analysis of collections from Germany by Dr. Jochen Gartz of the University of Leipzig and others have demonstrated high levels of psilocin and low levels of baeocystin. Dr. Gartz reported that "since 1983, this species has been observed on heaps of pig dung and woodchips in the district Rostock, Northern G. D. R. (East Germany). It seems that this species was introduced (into Germany) with grain from Argentina used for pig forage." Gartz also noted that this species stains blue when handled and was found to be exempt of other tryptamines, muscarine, and urea. Recently, this species was reported by Australian mycologists Shepherd and Totterdell (1990) as gregarious on rotted wood.


http://mycotopia.net...=1&d=1216969464

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#10 Guest_psi_*

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 02:23 AM

Well then, these are obviously not G. purpuratus. It seems that gyms aren't a particularly well studied genus fro what I've heard.

I'll have a look at those site mycot, thanks.

#11 mycot

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 01:51 AM

Thanks for your input MJ but your post above totally lacks any clarity. In fact it is so bad that it gives me neuralgia. Thanks but no thanks.
To wit:- First off you state purps as being only known from three countries in the world, immediatly mentioning Australia,Argentina and Germany and then in a quote say that purps was first collected in Chile. Well thats four countries.
Then there is "first collected in Chile" (by whom,when?) and "first identified from Australia".
From Rees I get "first described from tree fern stems of unknown origin in Kew Gardens (Cooke 1889). I might be a bit slow but by now am totally confused about where first. Perhaps we could line these up like soldiers in chronological order along with dates for clarity.
In addition the British Database of World Flora and Fauna www.british-towns.net/nature/07_specie_detail.asp?GetLSID=291868 lists G.purpuratus as UK native so thats 5 countries now.
Marek Snowarski www.grzyby.pl/gatunki/Gymnopilus_purpuratus.htm has it in Poland. There is also a Polish forum thread where Marek discuses this find. We're now up to six.
Lastly there is a G.purpuratus find reported in New Zealand by Landcare Research. So we're now at seven countries.
Quote: "It seems that this was introduced (into Germany) with grain from Argentina used for pig forage." End Quote.
I have to regard this proposed introduction as purely speculative rather than something established. Although some authorities have regarded the Kew Gardens find and the New Zealand find as exotic, I have to also regard the exoticness in these two cases as also speculative.
I much respect the fine work you have done in mycology MJ but this is substanded.

#12 Alan Rockefeller

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 11:56 PM

Great thread. I don't have Hesler's 1969 monograph so I can't tell you what you have, but I am sure someone else does and they will come along and look it up for you.

Does it taste bitter? Have you eaten them yet?

#13 eatyualive

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 12:20 PM

wow very cool you don't see many grows of this type!:eusa_clap

#14 mycot

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 02:11 AM

Thanks Alan and Eat-u, your kind words much appreciated. With my limited knowledge of American gyms, my guess is that Hestler's monograph, which covers North American gym species is more likely to shed some light on what this is not.(It would be great though if it told me what it was). I seem to be looking at a process of elimination and I still haven't entirely eliminated purpuratus as a possibility.

Gyms have aquired a reputation for bitterness. Perhaps this is because a few species are especially bitter, as the few species that I've actually bothered tasting haven't been too bad with a taste not too different to cybes or pans. In dried form(powder tasted with a moistened finger) this one tastes strong(yuk) similar to pans prepared the same way.

Dosing with this one was going to be guesswork, with the added aspect of working with a new energy for the first time.
4g fine powder was mixed with a little cold water and thrown down the hatch. Hardly touching the sides it went down easy with no puckering or aftertaste. This dosage while unquestionably active was felt to be an underdose with 5g planned for a further trial. The activity lasted a good number of hours(4-6) and was felt to be very different to cybes or pans. Difficult to characterise at the dosage taken, it was felt to have a mysterious airy quality (Thats pretty vague but the best that can be done at present and may be just goofing off :lol:).
Found agreeable and worthy of further experimentation.

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 02:28 AM

Wow, very interesting. Kudos for willing to try something new. It sounds like a worthy species to consume.

#16 spacecake

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 04:28 PM

..."Dosing with this one was going to be guesswork"

lol ,and still you tried 4 dried grams ! :amazed:
I wouldn't take more then half a gram myself..lol

Nice tread Mycot !

#17 mjshroomer

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 06:55 PM

Thanks for your input MJ but your post above totally lacks any clarity. In fact it is so bad that it gives me neuralgia. Thanks but no thanks.
To wit:- First off you state purps as being only known from three countries in the world, immediatly mentioning Australia,Argentina and Germany and then in a quote say that purps was first collected in Chile. Well thats four countries.
Then there is "first collected in Chile" (by whom,when?) and "first identified from Australia".
From Rees I get "first described from tree fern stems of unknown origin in Kew Gardens (Cooke 1889). I might be a bit slow but by now am totally confused about where first. Perhaps we could line these up like soldiers in chronological order along with dates for clarity.
In addition the British Database of World Flora and Fauna www.british-towns.net/nature/07_specie_detail.asp?GetLSID=291868 lists G.purpuratus as UK native so thats 5 countries now.
Marek Snowarski www.grzyby.pl/gatunki/Gymnopilus_purpuratus.htm has it in Poland. There is also a Polish forum thread where Marek discuses this find. We're now up to six.
Lastly there is a G.purpuratus find reported in New Zealand by Landcare Research. So we're now at seven countries.
Quote: "It seems that this was introduced (into Germany) with grain from Argentina used for pig forage." End Quote.
I have to regard this proposed introduction as purely speculative rather than something established. Although some authorities have regarded the Kew Gardens find and the New Zealand find as exotic, I have to also regard the exoticness in these two cases as also speculative.
I much respect the fine work you have done in mycology MJ but this is substanded.



Hey Mycot,

I do want to get back to this post i made and correct some errors I accidentally put into the text.

NOt sure if I noted but Singer was one of several mycologists who described this species of G. Purpuratus as a species common in the Austral Floral Zone.

Gartz proved to me that the appearance in Germany was associated only with pig and manure with woodchips which came from South America, mainly from Argentina. I was not aware of swiss or UK species but will look into it. My work was on Flamulata purpurata in Australia.

So I will at a later date come back and update my comments to fit with some of yours.

mjshroomer

#18 mycot

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 01:06 AM

Thanks Space, it was an educated guess and I'd say not too far off the mark. Maybe just right for an introduction.
The few quantitative alkaloid studies on gyms (of which Gartz's studies on G.purpuratus are probably the best) have revealed lower alkaloid levels than the more potent psilocybe species, though the more strongly bluing gyms might yet hold some surprises.
A note of caution :- The gymnopilus genus is very closely related to the deadly Galerina genus so great care should be exercised in identification.

MJ, a very substantial paper could be written just clearing up the mess mycologists have made of this single taxon. Not only do we have G. purpuratus but also G. purpuratus var croceescens and G. purpuratus var purpuratus.
Grgurinovic regarded Cleland & Cheel (1918) Flammula purpureonitens and F. purpuratus as synonyms for G. mullaunius which in turn Rees made synonymous with G. purpuratus.
G. purpuratus is also regarded as a synonym for G. dilepis by some authorities. If the latter two species are indeed separate taxa then I predict G. dilepis to be active on its bluing characteristics.
Knowing how adventitious gym species can be and with limited data, I'm still unconvinced regarding a South American introduction at this point.

A few more snaps :- The third flush :D, spiderweb-like cortina on mature pin, bluing at stem bases (smoky blue-black), and sporeprint (a very orange color under incandesent light).

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#19 Guest_psi_*

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 07:20 AM

Hey mate, those look great. Impressive third flush. That second photo is beautiful.

You know a fair bit about the Gymnopilus genus. Always good to see people genuinely interested in fungi.

#20 mjshroomer

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 08:23 AM

Thanks Space, it was an educated guess and I'd say not too far off the mark. Maybe just right for an introduction.
The few quantitative alkaloid studies on gyms (of which Gartz's studies on G.purpuratus are probably the best) have revealed lower alkaloid levels than the more potent psilocybe species, though the more strongly bluing gyms might yet hold some surprises.
A note of caution :- The gymnopilus genus is very closely related to the deadly Galerina genus so great care should be exercised in identification.

MJ, a very substantial paper could be written just clearing up the mess mycologists have made of this single taxon. Not only do we have G. purpuratus but also G. purpuratus var croceescens and G. purpuratus var purpuratus.
Grgurinovic regarded Cleland & Cheel (1918) Flammula purpureonitens and F. purpuratus as synonyms for G. mullaunius which in turn Rees made synonymous with G. purpuratus.
G. purpuratus is also regarded as a synonym for G. dilepis by some authorities. If the latter two species are indeed separate taxa then I predict G. dilepis to be active on its bluing characteristics.
Knowing how adventitious gym species can be and with limited data, I'm still unconvinced regarding a South American introduction at this point.

A few more snaps :- The third flush :D, spiderweb-like cortina on mature pin, bluing at stem bases (smoky blue-black), and sporeprint (a very orange color under incandesent light).



Lets not forget Guzman-Davalos paper on Gymnopil;us subpurpuratus.

The following data is from my cd-rom book ($39.99) co-authored by Jochen Gartz (2800 references, 1800 annotations and 8500 cross-references and over 1000 large photographs related to the bibliography:

Teonanacatl: A Bibliography of Entheogenic Fungi.

Guzmán-Davalos, Laura and Gastón Guzmán. 1991. Additions to the Genus Gymnopilus (Agaricales, Cortinariaceae) from Mexico. Mycotaxon vol. 61(1):43-56.
A Latin description for Gymnopilus subpurpuratus is presented.

------ and ------. 1995. Toward a Monograph of the Genus Gymnopilus (Agaricales) from Mexico. Mycologia vol. 25(98-100):197-212

Guzmán-Dávalos, Laura., Mueller, Gregory M., Cifuentes, Joaquin., Miller, Andrew N., and Anne Santerre. 2003. Traditional infrageneric classification of Gymnopilus is not supported by ribosomal DNA sequence data. Mycologia vol. 95(6):1204-1214.

The traditional classification of Gymnopilus (Agaricales) recognize two primary groups, Annulati and Gymnopilus, based on the presence or absence of a membranous partial veil. While our analyses of DNA sequence data from the nuclear ribosomal ITS1-5.85-ITS2 (ITS) gene supports the monophyly of the genus, these traditional subgroups were not recovered. Five well-supported clades within the genus were identified through these analyses: 1) the spectabilis-imperialis group; 2) nevadensis-penetrans groups; 3) a clade formed by G. underwoodii, G. validipes and G. cf. flavidellus, 4)aeruginosus-luteofolius groups; and 5) lepidotus-subearlei group. Relationships among these subgroups were not resolved.


mjshroomer




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