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Panaeolus Cambodgeniensis- spore->LC->fruit substrate->trays


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#21 bluehelix

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 10:11 PM

Well, like I said, they look wicked potent to me. They are really pretty small for any pan cyan I've grown. The caps look like they have a lot more brown in them too. And instead of heading to buff white, they look like they are heading to more greyish color. I would say they look more like the cambodiginiensis to me. If I remember right I got these from a very experienced person who would have labeled them Pan Cyan Cambo if he meant cambodian, so these probably are cambodiginiensis after all. I'll ask who I think gave me the print years ago...

#22 bluehelix

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 10:54 PM

Looking carefully at the pins, I found that these are chocholate brown unlike any pan cyan I've grown. Furthermore, I wasn't thinking about the fact that I got these from one of two people, and neither would have labeled pan cyan camdoians as pan combos. Someone should change the title of this thread because I am almost sure I made a mistake. These are almost certainly cambodiginiensis.

#23 Guest_psi_*

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 11:01 PM

P. cambodgeniensis have smaller spores that P. cyanescens. I believe Eatyualive said that when he grew cambodgeniensis his ended up turning blue, similar to what you are saying yours are like. Also, in photos I have seen of cambodgeniensis, they often, but not always, have reddish caps.

#24 Workman

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 03:46 PM

That is most likely P. cambodgeniensis judging by the dark coloration. I've been looking at as many samples as I can get my hands on and the vast majority are P. cambodgeniensis and P. cyanescens. The Goliath has small spores as well and is almost certainly a strain of P. cambodgeniensis.

These species are very difficult to separate out but I am working on a simplified identification guide. The more samples I examine the easier it is to recognize patterns and natural groupings of similar types.

#25 Foster

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 05:34 PM

:bow: Your work is very much appreciated Workman!

#26 waylitjim

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 09:30 PM

Hey Blue, looking good. ;)

I think the print I gave you was from this grow.
I can't remember where I got the spores from originally.
http://mycotopia.net...html#post208250

#27 bluehelix

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 10:19 PM

Thanks, Workman. They sure don't look like the Pan Cyans I've grow with all that brown in the caps. I took a look at these spores through the microscope. I don't have a measuring thing on it, so I had to eyeball it and switch, which isn't very easy to do. I think these have spores larger than Goliath. They were closer to the viets I had.

Waylitjim, yes, I thought it was you. They are growing up pretty well! And they look just like the ones you grew. How were they in terms of potency?

#28 bluehelix

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 10:25 PM

So, here are some pictures from today. The picture's colors are pretty much right on in my monitor and show the high amount of brown in the caps. Some things I've noted is that the pins are growing at pretty much disorganized rates, which is bothering me because without proper flushes it'll be hard to water the casing between them. I'm not sure how this happened or if it'll continue, but I hope not. There are a LOT of pins now, though, so I hope they do start to organize better into even flushes.

About the mushrooms themselves, they are smaller than the Pan Cyans I've grown in the past. The caps don't seem to be flattening yet, and I don't see spore deposits yet either (hopefully that's coming so I can do some prints). I'm keep the conditions at 80F around 97% RH (according to my probe which I believe to be accurate within 2%). The ultrasonic keeps the humidity in check. I also have very high internal circulation which promotes evaporation even at these higher humidities.

PS - Note the very larger mycelium "leg warmers". This is more pronounced than I've seen it in any other mushroom.

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#29 bluehelix

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 11:32 PM

One little editorial I wanted to add to this thread is that I find this particular mushroom to be more attractive than other pan cyans I've grown. The caps are slightly different in shape with a tiny bit of an umbo, and the brown tones give the mushroom more depth and warmth compared to the ghostly beige of your typical pan cyan. The dark margin also adds contrast to the cap and highlights it. Oh, and the little leg warmers, that keep getting bigger by the way, are just adorable! These are just beautiful, and I'm so glad to watch them grow!

UPDATE - and the larger specimens have something on the cap that is sparkling slightly when I shine a high-intensity LED flashlight on it. It looks like there are tiny crystals on it--no, I am not tripping! Is this some sort of fibrils or something? Whatever it is, it is not on the younger specimens and does not appear to be water and is way too small to be vermiculite flake. And no, it's not slug traces because it's all over the cap evenly and there are no bites out of them.

UPDATE2 - The largest cluster started to drop spores pretty heavily, so I'm printing them. The stems bruised heavily on picking to near black. Caps bruised easily too.

#30 Guest_psi_*

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 02:05 AM

They're looking great, very much like the ones in Waylitjim's thread. Those reddish-brown caps witht the dark margins are certainly distinctive, not at all like ordinary Pan cyans. Nice job so far.

#31 mjshroomer

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 03:03 AM

Pan cambodgeniensis


It is really hard for me to determine if they are Copelandia cyanescens or Copelandia cambodgeniensis.

The problem is that when grown in Vitro these mushrooms produce taller and larger specimens then those grown and photographed in situ.

A good example is Workman's Pan Goliath cyanescens which came from a specimen from Suphanburi, Kwai Farm about 2 and a half hours northeast of Bangkok which I picked a half dried sprecimen and which looked nothing like any Copelandia species I had ever seen before. Both Workman and I were able to grow specimens which had cap diameters of over two inches wide.

Here is one of my Pan Goliaths grown in the lab in Bangkok from spores obtained from a swab culture stick and then I sent the specimen to Workman who grew the original Pan Goliath strain now available on the market.

The cap is over two inches in diameter.

http://mycotopia.net...=1&d=1217664776

http://mycotopia.net...=1&d=1217663576

Here are some in stiu photographed specimens of Copelandia cambodgeniensis from Kulaoa Ranch on Oahu Island inhawaii which were identified bt three separate mycologists. Elsa Villinga, Ewald Gerhardt and Tjakko Stijve identified them as C. cambodgeniensis. In Hawaii they are usually referred to as 'gold caps' or 'gold tops.

Generally the majority of speciemens never get taller than 2-3 inches in height, but the caps can be as round as an inch and a half in diameter and have a cap length from 1/4 inch to 1 and a half inches in height and many specimens in a colony will grow as tall as 4-5 inches in length

These are from one paticular area where several cow paddie all contained the same shrooms about one mile south of Chinaman's Hat off of Kamehameha Highway and separate collections of the specines inthe photographs were sent to Dr,. Srijve along with the photos of the collections who in turn sent them out to other experts for confirmation of species.

As shown in several of my posts on Panaeolus subbalteatus and Copelandia cyanescens in Amsterdam and other areas of Holland, we known these mushrooms can grow caps as big as two inches in diameter with stems up to over a 1/4 inch thick and stems up to 6-9 inches in height and can be grown by the thousands in a tier inside of a mushroom growing cell.

3 images of actual in situ specimens of C. cambodgenieinsis from Oahu, Hawaii.

http://mycotopia.net...=1&d=1217662820

http://mycotopia.net...=1&d=1217662820

http://mycotopia.net...=1&d=1217662820

mjshroomer

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#32 Guest_psi_*

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 03:30 AM

So realistically, without microscopy work, it would not be possible to differeniate between P. cyanescens and P. cambodgeniensis? I must say, those P. cambodgeniensis in the photos look quite macroscopically different from the ones bluehelix has growing.

Do different strains of cambodgeniensis show marked variation from one another?

#33 bluehelix

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 06:00 AM

I have no problem with using a microscope, but I don't even know what I'm looking for. Spore size? The spore sizes I read for the cambogeniensis were very close to those reported for cyans and even overlapped I believe. The number of spores per basidia? Something else?

#34 bluehelix

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 01:13 PM

Here are some pictures from today. Notice how the ones in the vase look totally different due to the lower gas exchange.

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#35 Workman

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 04:20 PM

I have no problem with using a microscope, but I don't even know what I'm looking for. Spore size? The spore sizes I read for the cambogeniensis were very close to those reported for cyans and even overlapped I believe. The number of spores per basidia? Something else?


4-spored basidia, spores smaller than 12 microns on average. Spores tend to be brown under the scope. The metuloids are thinner walled than cyans but thats hard to judge since its varies with maturity. Measure the lengths of about 20 spores and post the range or take a picture with a scale and I can do the measurements digitally.


Different strains of cambodgeniensis macroscopically vary quite a bit but they tend to have very dark capped pins while cyan pins tend to be pale.

#36 eatyualive

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 01:21 AM

excellent log blue helix, your pans have a distinct look to them in your particular environment...

the only time i tried pan cambodginiensis, they had orange like caps when small pins. then matured to turn a dark blue color on the cap. very dark blue. when harvested. the fruits almost looked black. i got some pics in my image browser probably near page 60 or so of the cambodginiensis. real nice ride...clean visual beautiful. nice work. they look excellent. id say these things were easily 3 times more potent than any pan ive tried. not come across them since. i have a print from someone that it is supposed to be cambodginiensis. but i have no idea if it is. i don't even know if that print i had previously was them but they sure were potent and dark blue. it went from orange to blue color. they didn't produce the spots you generally see on pans when its time to print. didn't see any of these. but they were quite speedy on grain, in dung, and through casing layers. very much faster than most pans i have worked with.


actually mj, i got these from ralph years ago. probably 2002-2003 before i ever saw these for sale anywhere. he said he got em from you. i grew em out but they never sporulated. this was the only time ive had em. but they turned dark blue. they flushed a good 3 flushes. post flush i just cased directly over the broken stems and the next flush fruited very quickly within a few days after that. just lightly sprayed the casing once a day or so.
Posted Image
another one
http://mycotopia.net...handfull109.jpg

orange pins

http://mycotopia.net...pix-pancam1.jpg

#37 Foster

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 01:03 PM

These are pics from the first attempt I made with pan cambo. Which it is? I don't know for sure. But as eatyualive said, these were by far the fastest colonizer, and the most potent of the pans I've tried.
The pins are very dark, however some appeared to have a somewhat green tint.
The fruits also had a greenish hue, then more orange, becoming lighter until some had a steel blue/gray appearance.
Posted Image
Posted Image

#38 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 02:12 PM

Bluehelix - great log, great grow, great photos.

I love your threads, man...

#39 waylitjim

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 04:24 PM

Note the very larger mycelium "leg warmers".
This is more pronounced than I've seen it in any other mushroom.


:lol: yeah, no shit.
I noticed the same thing with this variety.
Cambos are in the front, Goliath in the back.

http://mycotopia.net...=1&d=1217798541

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#40 mjshroomer

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 06:38 PM

4-spored basidia, spores smaller than 12 microns on average. Spores tend to be brown under the scope. The metuloids are thinner walled than cyans but thats hard to judge since its varies with maturity. Measure the lengths of about 20 spores and post the range or take a picture with a scale and I can do the measurements digitally.
Different strains of cambodgeniensis macroscopically vary quite a bit but they tend to have very dark capped pins while cyan pins tend to be pale.



Hopefully this image which failed to post above will now show up here. These were the ones I gerew with Sunisa in the lab at Chula in bangkok of which the original dried shroom specimen went to Workman who produced the Pan Goliath strain of mushrooms from Suphanburi, Thailand.

http://mycotopia.net...=1&d=1217806679

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