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Coir as Bulk Substrate

bulk coir substrate

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#1 Somaholic

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 01:21 PM

Hi, I've read that coir can be used as a bulk substrate, what are its pros and cons compared to straw (yield potential, etc)? Also, wondering if someone can point me to a particularly good tek for the preparation of coir, or maybe offer some personal guidelines. Also, I'm a bit paranoid about using coir because it's said that some kinds harbor trichoderma... if I stick to the petstore brands I should be safe, yes? What about using large generic 'blocks' off ebay and the like? ie... http://cgi.ebay.com/...p3286.m20.l1116

#2 Psoulocybe

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 01:36 PM

FOAF has been using coir/worm castings/verm as a tray substrate and it's worked very well. Mix it till it feels right, put it in jars, pasteurize for 2 hours.

It seems to colonize very fast.

She started with coir/verm but had higher contamination rates. The mycelum really tear through the worm castings, and the coir really helps the consistancy of the substrate.

#3 gsmith1981

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 01:42 PM

right now im using 1 brick of coir, 1 gallon of verm, 2 shots of veggie oil, 1/4 cup calcium carb, 2 teaspoons of lime. so far looking good to me. i do plain to add castings and straw to my next batch.

http://mycotopia.net...od-p1011177.jpg

#4 Looky

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 01:44 PM

Coir has no nutrients. You will need nutrients in a bulk sub.

#5 gsmith1981

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 01:48 PM

coir must have something
http://mycotopia.net...ct-variant.html

posted by Oatman2000 at shroomery.

Spawning to coir - "Treasure Coast" -.-.-.-.-.-FIRST FLUSH

BED-A-BEAST brand coir

no sterilization , no pasteurization.... just added hot water.
Each brick is about $5.
Individually wrapped. and will hold 1 gal. of hot water.
Each brick will make 2 casings. This stuff is great!

nothing added to the coir... learned from an old hand that coir is all you need, and is a substitute to poo


GOT SOME PRETTY HUGE FRUITS FOR THE 1ST FLUSH....
FINAL: 327.5G dry


IMO - coir = GOODNESS


that link is wbs spawned to coir by oatman

http://mycotopia.net...r-bulk-pdf.html

#6 Psoulocybe

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 02:07 PM

Veggie oil? What does that do in a sub?

#7 Looky

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 02:09 PM

In the first link, each tray is pretty small and in the small trays there is 1 1/2 qts of spawn. I believe that all of the nutes are coming from the spawn. And again in the second link there is a 1:1 ratio of spawn to coir, I think the nutes are coming from the spawn. Coir is more of a casing is what my understaning has been. The rez effect is basically mixing spawn and casing all up together, right? You could even do the same thing with using verm instead of coir. If you use that much spawn, you will surely end up with fruits, even though verm has no nutes at all.

#8 limeade

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 02:19 PM

Coir has no nutrients. You will need nutrients in a bulk sub.

This is absolutely incorrect, coir is #2 on the list of bulk substrates, the next best thing is manures. Coir is way too nutritious as a casing layer, as they shouldn't have nutrition.
Lets not forget, mushrooms are not plants, they do not feed on nutrition, they are secondary decomposers, they decompose, the heartiness of your substrate, is what matters, obviously, manure is a lot heartier and will take longer to decompose then coir.
The pros to coir in my experience, fast, cheap, reliable,
cons:
will contam with trich readily after 2nd flush, yeilds are not as high, as you won't get as many flushes, unless you ammend your coir with other products.
Right now, out of necessity, i've been using coir readily every time,
I droooLLLZ at ReverendTrips straw gallery, she's inspired me, as i've found a really good source for pre shredded wheat straw today.
coir is great!
I have a "Palenque strain" post, that involves coconut fiber, be sure to look for it.

http://mycotopia.net...enque-coir.html


attatchment is my current growing pinset of palenque strain on COIR.

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#9 limeade

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 02:20 PM

Veggie oil? What does that do in a sub?


veggie oil makes things readily soluble and a very nice mix, holds it's consistency, etc.

#10 gsmith1981

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 02:36 PM

by agar
Just a shot or 2.
Add while hydrating.
Then, pasteurize.
It adds lipids, a good thing.


carlito's tek with poo if you'd like to try it

48 Cups of horse manure (shredded)
24 Cups of vermiculite
16 1/2 Cups of dry WBS (do not soak or simmer)
4 Tablespoons of dry Kelp Meal
6 Tablespoons of Canola or Vegetable oil
21 Cups of water)


here is monster mitch bulk sub. which suggest coir if no poo + veggie oil. of course mm adds more to his.

Edited by Freaky, 12 February 2009 - 07:47 PM.
removed offsite link


#11 Looky

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 02:47 PM

The whole point of adding either peat moss or coir is to add cellulose fiber to loosen soil and to help it hold water and nutrients. Compost also adds some of this, along with nutrients; coir and peat moss by themselves do not have any plant nutrient value.


Use coir as you would peat to amend heavy soils and in potting mixes, recommended McMahan. Not as acidic as peat, coir is similarly low in nutrients.


IDK I thought that manure worked so well because it has some good nutrients. Straw has some nutes, but I have read quite a bit, that while straw produces very nice flushes, the shrooms tend to be considerably less potent than if they were grown in manure, BRF etc... If coir works great as a bulk substrate, then you should be able to use a tiny bit of mycelium to colonize it and get great flushes. Without a large spawn, I doubt that coir will get a good flush.

#12 limeade

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 02:52 PM

IDK I thought that manure worked so well because it has some good nutrients. Straw has some nutes, but I have read quite a bit, that while straw produces very nice flushes, the shrooms tend to be considerably less potent than if they were grown in manure, BRF etc... If coir works great as a bulk substrate, then you should be able to use a tiny bit of mycelium to colonize it and get great flushes. Without a large spawn, I doubt that coir will get a good flush.



.....

coir flushes: (it gets magnificent flushes dude)

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#13 Looky

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 03:09 PM

No doubt those are some nice pictures. Those are really nice looking. :bow: Question though, was that just pure coir with no spawn? If you can get all that from 100% coir with no spawn, just a kernel here and a kernel there to get it colonized and you can end up with flushes like that...... then WOW!

I know that coir has a lot of advantages and works really well with casing and rez effect, I just didn't think that coir alone could do anything.

#14 chimp

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 03:17 PM

Coir is way too nutritious as a casing layer, as they shouldn't have nutrition.


Coir/verm mixed is the best casing material for cubensis IMO. What makes you think that a casing layer shouldn't contain any nutritional content?

#15 limeade

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 04:30 PM

Coir/verm mixed is the best casing material for cubensis IMO. What makes you think that a casing layer shouldn't contain any nutritional content?


Well, a casing layer is a contam barrier, also supplies some moisture, the substrate should be supplying 100% of both nutrition, and water content.
having a "nutritious" casing layer only invites contamination, if it's not colonized by myc, something else is going t colonize it, or another mold...




and this was rye grain spawn, to coir, not just coir alone, however, i've seen coir cakes, U could concievably make filterpatch bags full of pasteurized coir and inoculate with LC, and run from that, like one would do straw.

spawning isn't absolutely necessary to do coir.

#16 chimp

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 04:59 PM

Well, a casing layer is a contam barrier, also supplies some moisture, the substrate should be supplying 100% of both nutrition, and water content.
having a "nutritious" casing layer only invites contamination, if it's not colonized by myc, something else is going t colonize it, or another mold....


I'm not sure where you heard that a the primary reason to case is because it is a contam barrier, could you provide some links or something to back that statement up? Also, a casing does alot more than provide "some" moisture. Casing creates a micro environment above the colonized substrate greatly increasing h2o retention and in effect keeping the RH at the surface consistent.

I routinely get 4 and 5 flushes from projects cased with coir/verm at a 60/40 ratio. Yes, I use more coir than verm most of the time and in actuality the coir promotes better pin sets IME. SO I can't buy your theory regarding contamination either.

#17 limeade

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 06:00 PM

I'm not sure where you heard that a the primary reason to case is because it is a contam barrier, could you provide some links or something to back that statement up? Also, a casing does alot more than provide "some" moisture. Casing creates a micro environment above the colonized substrate greatly increasing h2o retention and in effect keeping the RH at the surface consistent.

I routinely get 4 and 5 flushes from projects cased with coir/verm at a 60/40 ratio. Yes, I use more coir than verm most of the time and in actuality the coir promotes better pin sets IME. SO I can't buy your theory regarding contamination either.



I will have to provide links to sites not related to mycotopia, and spend some time getting them, mostly it's RogerRabbit posts and hyphae posts from shroomery.

#18 eatyualive

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 02:00 AM

coir does work. but its always better to add more bulk to your bulk substrates. its a good additive for substrates. i always include it along with verm in mine...

#19 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 12:11 PM

Coir is cellulose (wood).

Cubensis is a dung loving mushroom.

That is not to say coir can't be used as a bulk substrate, just that other things are better suited (things like coir amended with some poo). As has been adequately demonstrated, cubies will grow and fruit from just about any substrate (including a Bible soaked in sugar water).

The casing information you share seems to be pulled primarily from sources working with non-cubensis mushrooms (that description of a casing layer you mention sounds a lot like some stuff from Stamet's books).

A casing layer as a contam barrier for cubensis is a bit nonsensical. Nothing you put on top of a fully colonized substrate is going to be as contam resistant as the substrate itself.

Coir, incidentally, is highly contam resistant compared to other things that are "common" casing ingredients (like peat moss).

Finally, a casing layer is entirely secondary/coincidental with cubensis mushrooms. A bulk substrate will fruit beautifully with no casing. IMHO, casing cubie trays just slows things down.

#20 limeade

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 12:51 PM

this isn't just coir alone, but no dung is added, just some insight on "growing with coir"
and i haven't found a single cubensis in hawaii on dung, they are easily found along coconut tree beds, only thing i have found in hawaii is copelandias on dung. Psilocybe's prefer dung, but as anything, they adapt.

as far as coir "flushing"

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