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Oven bag invitro res-effect grow method


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#1 morthos

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 03:13 PM

Afternoon! I'm on an invitro/neglect method rampage at the moment, and oven bags are next! What I've got in mind is to fill an oven bag with substrate & spawn, plus add filter patch(es) for air exchange. I would then mix it once or twice during colonization, then let sit until harvest time.

The method I have in mind is as follows:

1. Prepare numerous sterilized 500ml wbs jars
2. Prepare a dozen 125ml brf jars as spawn material (already 1/3~1/2 colonized)
3. Prepare/PC jars of moistened verm, equal or slightly less than wbs in volume
4. PC oven bag for 30 min to be sure it's sterile
5. Load glovebox with oven bag, duct tape, pre-cut tyvek pieces, all jars and utensils
6. Cut hole(s) in oven bag and patch with tyvek, seal with duct tape
7. Dump in substrate wbs jar contents
8. Crumble up spawn material into bag, mix bag
9. Add verm, close bag and tie shut
10. Remove baby from glovebox, mix contents of bag
11. Mix once or twice during colonization & let sit until harvest time
12. Open at tied end, remove precious, harvest
13. Figure out how to dunk mass, then re-insert & close bag for further flushes.

I started the 125ml brf jars in hopes the smaller volume will colonize faster. I never intended to fruit them.

That's the gist of it. A few things to figure out, however:

I'm thinking it may be good to make a specialized tyvek patch(s); one piece of tyvek, a couple rectangular pcs of wire mesh (not pointy at ends) then another piece of tyvek, with the top and bottom pcs of tyvek duct-taped together to trap the wire mesh as a spacer. This would prevent moisture from the inside getting wicked to the outside of the bag and inviting critters.

My glovebox likely wouldn't hold all the jars needed to fill the oven bag to capacity (working with gusto mentality remember; to the limit!). I'm thinking I might have to do this process two or three times to fill the bag. That might be 12 500ml wbs jars + 12 verm + (equivelent of) 3 brf spawn to fill the oven bag. (nice proportions, yes? Mwa ha haaa!) Wbs is cheap, so why not.

Can you moisten verm as desired and expect it to be about the same after PC'ing? I simply haven't tried this yet. Ideally I'd moisten the verm, PC it, then simply mix it in. Does PC'ing change the moisture content in verm jars?

I'm thinking two or three breathing patches would be required for this volume of substrate, one near each end of the bag. Anyone think differently for number of patches, each a few inches square in size?

After preparation, I'd sit the bag flat on a transparent platform, for maximum lighting. The idea is essentially a 360-pinning invitro res-effect monstrosity. Please critique!

FOOORRWAAAARD!!

#2 morthos

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 03:24 PM

Come to think of it, I've popcorn to use as spawn too, and 11 freshly PC'd jars of popcorn. I'll try the same with this substrate as well. Bugger is I've only half a brick of coir left, so these are all-verm experiments.

Don't try to stop me; a mad scientist without experiments isn't a mad scientist! :D

#3 morthos

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 04:17 PM

Does anyone think that adding the verm will complicate matters? Prior to this, I'd lix colonized substrate with verm. In this case it's a mix of spawn, sterilized substrate & verm. Will the use of verm this way slow down colonization too much, or am I just going to mix the bag a couple more times?

#4 Guest_golly_*

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 06:19 PM

Dear Mad Scientist . Sounds good... only thing i would do different would b to just PC the verm in the bag .If the bag is about half full or less it makes it alot easier to mix ...and i would only mix one time real well then let er run....Gluk...

#5 morthos

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 10:09 PM

Thx Golly. However, my PC is only an 8 quart unit; I can only get 3 500ml jars in there. While I could probably get an equivelent of 5 jars in the bag, I don't think it would be enough for what I have in mind, and coule make attatching the tyvek patches more difficult.

Keep 'em coming please!

#6 nomoreusmc

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 11:12 PM

good luck

#7 Guest_golly_*

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 11:26 PM

Being as this is a sterile grow i might b inclined to hydrate the verm with some kinda nutrient solution like tater water or liquid poo...

#8 destroy_erase_improve

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 12:09 AM

good luck

ditto
lol you are one motivated, and hyper individual. if your dead set on this , i say go with it man :D

#9 morthos

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 02:45 AM

Golly, I've yet to try nutrient solutions. I'd be curious as to what kind of dif they'd make, but for now I'd like to limit the # of variables. If I work with one new concept at a time I've a decent chance of figuring out how to solve problems as they turn up. What kind of dif have they made for you?

I'm not hyper...it just looks that way when I type it! lol This is the one hobby I can think about while away from it, so I've thought about this a bit. I see no reason not to try.

I just wonder if I should use pre-colonized wbs/popcorn instead of spawning it with the res effect. I have the means to try both...

The possibilities people! :)

#10 Guest_golly_*

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 08:13 AM

Well u figure half your substrate will have no nutes at all..Tea of poo is the only way i have tried on a reg basis...Never done invitro either but these days all my casings are comprised of dry shredded mulch soaked in tea- very easy+dependable,,in your case though because its all sterile u can use solutions that would otherwise contaminate in open air.Bottom line is, more nutes=more mush[up to a point of course] --I'm just talking a weak solution.

#11 Guest_Peter Cottontail_*

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 12:04 PM

quote:
"2. Prepare a dozen 125ml brf jars as spawn material (already 1/3~1/2 colonized)"

This is what I don't understand. Don't use the brf jars as spawn until they're 100% colonized. Ditto for rye or popcorn or wbs, etc. If you use less than 100% colonized spawn, you're sure to have contamination problems.

#12 morthos

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 11:32 PM

Sorry Rodger, a lack of detail on my part. The procedure won't happen until those dozen are fully colonized. The mycelium has almost covered the surface area, so another week at most until they're ready. I wouldn't use partly colonized jars.

Did you mean at the same time that the use of freshly PC'd & cooled substrate would invite contams in a res-effect mix?

Sounds interesting Golly. How would I prepare something like that? Are there any drawbacks?

I'm thinking I'll try four of these bags at the same time, using popcorn & wbs(seperately); two will be a spawning event, and the other two will use only pre-colonized substrate. The bags mixed with pre-colonized popcorn & wbs will surely reach fruiting faster than the spawning two.

I'm wondering if it would be simple to add in my half-brick of coir in this, replacing it's volume of verm... Again the Q is, will either pre-wet coir or pre-wet verm change their moisture content during PC'ing?

The ones using colonized substrate will be much easier to do, as I won't have to PC the verm or coir used in them, or work in the glovebox.

As to estimating the size & # of tyvek patches, I have an adjustable solution idea. I will make them in strips...covering rectangular cuts in the bag about 1/4" wide and 5" long...that's a strip 1" wide 7" long of tyvek, a few pieces of wire mesh 1/2~3/4" wide 6" long on that, then another piece of tyvek, sealed with electrical tape(duct too messy). These filter things could be built, PC'd 30 min wrapped in foil, dried in the oven, then put on the bags. Do you think electrical tape would stick well to itself through PC'ing??

The patches are adjustible in that if it looks too dry in the bag, I could simply tape over parts of the tyvek to reduce the air exchange. I suppose given that fallback I should make them bigger to start with, yes?

I'm eager to find out if spawning & res effect in bags can be done in one procedure like this. It could make bulk invitro growing easy!

Thanks for the help!

#13 morthos

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Posted 12 March 2005 - 10:21 PM

Anybody? What I really need to know is whether or not pre-wetted verm or coir changes it's moisture content during PC'ing.

Thx!

#14 morthos

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 03:09 AM

Alrighty then! The 3 oven bags I made up have reached partial fruiting earlier than expected..! I mixed up 2 bags on the 15th and one on the 16th.

The first is a four-litre mix of 2L colonized wbs, 1.5L moistened verm, .5L moist coir. The next is a 5L mix of 2.5L col. wbs, 2L verm & .5 coir. The third is a 6L mix of 3L post-invitro flush popcorn, 2L verm & 1L coir. I would have liked to use more coir, but I'm soon to run out and must ration it.

The patches are double-layer tyvek with wire mesh spacing them, taped airtight.

Now, only 6 days after mixing I have pins on the wbs bags - 4L & 5L! I would have thought it would take longer to knit together; I was expecting two weeks! No pins on the popcorn 6L.

My first thought was that I should have kept these in the dark for at least a week before exposing them to light; Partial pinning could mean complications. On both 4L & 5L though, I am seeing a few more scattered pins. I guess only time will tell now...I'd rather not open the bag to harvest partially if I can avoid it.

In other news, I've started 6 wbs/coir/verm 500ml jars, 2:1:1 ratio, with intent to grow them invitro. After a good week I'l add a PVC spacer to these jars and sit them lid-down. For now they are rings-up with pierced lids, tyvek covers + bands. When I flip them with the spacer I'll remove the tyvek.

Any thoughts?

I went gonzo with the pics, enjoy!

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#15 morthos

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 03:18 AM

Oh yeah, the bags are twisted shut and held with multiple twist-ties.

The patches were trimmed to the tape before taping shut & to the bag. I added some duct tape across the 4L & 5L as I thought it too large; I think I'd like to see at least some condensation on the plastic.

#16 Hippie3

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 12:20 PM

, will either pre-wet coir or pre-wet verm change their moisture content during PC'ing?


not enough to matter.
hope you got decent oven bags
some leak

#17 morthos

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Posted 24 March 2005 - 02:51 PM

Here's the latest from the oven bags. The 6L popcorn bag has yet to pin, but the wbs bags are pinning all over. I've no idea why the 5L bag is so far ahead of the 4L, but no complaints! I figure I'll have to open the 5L bag to harvest the monster growing on the backside. I think I'll be trying more wbs oven bags!

As to my jars of wbs/coir/verm, does anyone have an opinion as to if I should try fruiting them right-side up without the tyvek with just the nail holes for air, or if I should flip them, add a spacer and remove the tyvek?

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#18 Hippie3

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Posted 24 March 2005 - 04:44 PM

bag style growing

fast results.
should be interesting to see how
you get a 2nd flush.
i'd flip jars and let the tyvek remain on.

#19 morthos

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Posted 24 March 2005 - 10:13 PM

Thanks Hip!

Yes, the results are faster than I'd expected too. I have to wonder if the 6L popcorn mix will pin closer to the 2-week mark like my neglect tupperware unit did. Methinks more bags need to be made to see if a week to pinning is normal for this method with wbs. I am watching the bags to be sure there is a little condensation.

Harvesting a whole bag is probably still a week away. After I do so I'll see if bleach dunking and re-insertion is a good idea. I actually did PC the 4L bag with patch, empty, for 30 min before loading it up. I did this to test if the electrical tape would hold through the process; it did. Perhaps it'd be a good idea to PC the empty bags while the mass is dunking...dry them out, then re-insert...

#20 Hippie3

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Posted 25 March 2005 - 12:50 PM

a clean dry bag
after the dunk
sounds good to me too.
or crumble,
and stuff it back in the bag
but mixed with pasturized straw....




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