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Shamanism and contact with spirits


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#1 Guest_omni_*

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 04:53 PM

It seems that traditionally shamanism is concerned with the communication with entities in a "spirit world". Shamanistic healing takes place by finding the spirit that is causing a malady and somehow causing that spirit to leave the subject alone. A shaman is someone who has contact with and can control both well meaning and malicious spirits.

I would like the input of those here who consider themselves shamans or feel they are fairly knowledgable in shamanism. Is this in fact what shamanism is? Is the spirit ream traditionally worked in by shamans a reality or does shamanism work in some other way?

#2 phalanx

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 06:51 PM

Is the spirit realm traditionally worked in by shamans a reality or does shamanism work in some other way?

That is a question everyone has to answer themselves because it goes beyond scientific investigation and is a matter of faith.

I don't believe 100% in a spirit world, but I have had many strange experiences which are hard to explain away as products of my imagination.

I recently had an ayahuasca trip with dealt with shamanic medicine. I saw that there is a physical body and a spiritual body. Doctors can work with the physical body but only shamans can fiddle with the spiritual body.

I saw that illnesses can start in the spiritual body and spread to the physical one. Only shamans can truly cure such illness. The spiritual body is the blueprint for the physical body and generates it.

You are up shit creek if you depend on western medicine to cure a physical illness with a spiritual cause. Unfortunately I didn't see how to tell the difference between the two types of illness, so it's best to go to a regular doctor to start with. If that doesn't help then you can move on to shamanic methods.

I had a bit of medicine done on me by spiritual beings. It was like acupuncture. They were tipping parts of my spiritual body with their fingers and I could feel tensions being released and things being corrected and altered, right in the very core of my being. Afterwards I felt like I had been "straightened out". It felt cool. I saw my spiritual body from behind and it looked like a mass of electrical wires or nerves. The beings worked on me from behind. Ayahuasca is some medicine!
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#3 Guest_tehutiroo_*

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Posted 12 January 2005 - 09:05 PM

You are up shit creek if you depend on western medicine to cure a physical illness with a spiritual cause. Unfortunately I didn't see how to tell the difference between the two types of illness, so it's best to go to a regular doctor to start with. If that doesn't help then you can move on to shamanic methods."

I would consider the cause of most physical illness to have a mental or spiritual cause. Physical illness is just the symptom of a spiritual one. Doctors work wonders in treating the symptoms, but the root cause has its origins in the soul or the mind.

We can see proof of this in the fact that most of our society, at least here in the west, are on one drug or another to control the symptoms. Be it Prozac or some other form of "psychpharmacy". Our society is a rat race with little time for spiritual reflection. We overeat and spend way too much time on our cans watching stupid shit on TV. Even our children suffer. I very rarely see children playing outdoors like they did even 20 years ago. Now it is TV and video games.. These children are now having serious spiritual/mental problems that must be controlled by the very same drugs their parents take.

I am in no way suggesting people stop seeing doctors. But as with so many things in our society, we treat the symptoms rather than getting to the root cause. The war on drugs is a fine example of this mentality.

"I would like the input of those he like the input of those here who consider themselves shamans or feel they are fairly knowledgeable in shamanism. Is this in fact what shamanism is? Is the spirit ream traditionally worked in by shamans a reality or does shamanism work in some other way?"


There are no experts in the field of shamanism. Even the term "shamanism" is incorrect except of a very small group of people in northern and central Asia. Native Americans very much dislike this term. But since it is the only term in our language to describe these "mad healers" we have to use it.

There is much confusion in regards to what a "shaman" considers the spiritual world to be. It is nothing at all like what western religion and cultures considers the "sprit" world. Most of these people really do not believe in GOD as a boogy man in the sky. They do not believe in a "devil" also.

They believe in a world of forces. Just as the physical plain is a world of forces so is the spiritual one. Some forces can be manipulated some cannot. The spirits they call or see are just forces. During an Ayahuasca session many western people literally see these spirits in the form of doctors or nurses. I have heard this over and over again from people who have been to an Ayahuasca healing session. Native people are more likely to see these healing spirits in the form of "beings" or "Animals". Die hard Christians see Jesus or angels.

It does not matter one bit what you see. The results are pretty much the same. Anyone who takes Ayahuasca, in a strong dose, feels this power from another world. It really does not matter if you believe in a spirit world or not. The results of such a healing are the same.

LOL! A good strong dose of Ayahuasca will bring most people into another world regardless of belief system.

Something else you should remember. A Shaman is not out to convert you to his religion. He is just looking for a result. They could care less if you tell them their reality is a load of crap. They will just smile and give you a cup of brew to drink. The experience is the religion as are the results. You will also find that at least in shamanism involving Ayahuasca, the shaman is always standing. A shaman that is too old to stand cannot proform the ceremony. The shaman is someone who has been to this world, he is the one who will guide you through it, the one who can protect you from any nasties that exist there, be they good or evil. The shaman is your warrior, guide, and protector during the time the vine has you in its grasp. The same goes for any other entheogen using shaman.

#4 Guest_omni_*

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Posted 13 January 2005 - 03:23 PM

Thanks roo. another question:

Have you had any experience with or ever heard of anyone using these "spirit world" forces to bring about a detrimental result? It seems that one would have to be extrememly careful with who to choose as a guide. Someone who didn't quite know what they were doing or someone who's goal wasn't in fact to help the student or person being healed could easily bring about a worse state of affairs, no? Also, does it ever happen that an experienced guide or healer is unable to prevent a powerful detrimental force from affecting the subject, or accidentally manipulates forces in a way that ends up harming the patient?

#5 Guest_tehutiroo_*

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Posted 13 January 2005 - 07:07 PM

In entheogenic shamanism, the shaman, does not have this sort of power. The shaman is more of a guide.

Sometimes people die no matter what, it does not matter what they do or the doctor does. As far a a shaman using forces against someone this very much does happen. Shamans are quite good at controling mental states. There are those who use this to steal money from people, or sex from females. This is why I VERY much discourage people who have no experiance with Ayahuasca to travel to S. America in search of it. On is better to go with a group. As much as I dislike Ayahuasca tourism, I see no other way of doing this. Perhaps after a few trips one may gain a few reputable contacts, but one has to be very carefull..

I would not worry so much about a botched healing. Most if not all of it takes place inside of you. The shaman just uses "games" or "tricks" to make you feel powerfull with the vine.

#6 phalanx

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Posted 13 January 2005 - 09:06 PM

Roo, I see you have gone for a new "01-2005" number plate too.Posted Image

Sometimes I was seriously tempted to go to South America as an ayahuasca tourist, but I think it would be asking to be ripped off and led up the garden path. And anyway, why pay a fortune for one journey in the physical world when I could buy a shitload of herbs for that price and travel to all sorts of spiritual places every time?

I heard there are lots of fake shamans there looking to make a fast buck, and you never know what is in the brew (e.g datura).

It is ultimately the Ayahuasca that matters, not where you take it, and ultimately Aya is the teacher, not shamans.

Roo, you ever go to South America or talk to someone who did?

#7 Guest_tehutiroo_*

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Posted 14 January 2005 - 11:35 PM

"Sometimes I was seriously tempted to go to South America as an ayahuasca tourist, but I think it would be asking to be ripped off and led up the garden path."

LOL! How do you think I spent my honeymoon?

I think you would like it. The trip I took was through these people: http://www.biopark.org/sprtqu3.html

I was impressed! The groups they take are very small. These trips deal in more than just Ayahuasca, other healing plants and methods are also used. One also gets to see these plants growing and how traditional Ayahuasca is made and drank. I drank 3 cups in one night as did a few local and gringo regulars. One can tell a good Ayahuasca "shaman" from a phoney by his attitude and how he carries himself. These people are VERY intelligent. They have a calm intensity about them. They are very "strait" people. Very serious but not stuck up... For me at least they had the same intensity of the brew itself, very hard to explain, but it was like you could feel the Ayahuasca come out in their being. A few where very old but also very much alive in body and spirit. These people drink the brew at least once a week.

Ayahuasca is a big thing in Columbia and Peru. It has hit the big cities, the small towns etc. People rich and poor drink together.

Some people would be amazed to find out that these sessions are very non religious. There is very little talk of religion. This is one things I did not like about the Santo Daime.

Drinking the brew in the jungle is a very differant experiance. For me at least it was much more visual and spiritual. I felt no anxiaty at all.

The Ayahuasca there tasts supurb. I am sure it is becouse the use all fresh ingrediants rather than the dried ones we have. The brew they make goes down clean and smooth. I used to think it was bull when I heard people speak of the art of brewing, but now I understand what they are saying. LOL! I made this comment to the people that made it and they almost lost it laughing. They are very much well aware that many other people now brew in the world. They are in no way offended by this, in fact they are very pleased by it.

Their role during the session was to observe, and to step in if someone needed help. They also help people through the purge. There where a few people realy freaking out about the purge. They thought they where dying etc... One thing I did notice was that I could tell those who had more experiance with Ayahuasca before by how they handled the purge. Those who had prior experiance just walked over calmly and got it done with wile those who had no prior experiance either sat around or where rolling around trying to fight it. As soon as the "shaman" saw this he was pouring another cup. This went on all night long. The session ended as the sun was rising.

There where 3 people doing icaros when I was there. It was strange that I could listen to one and tune out all the others. They where doing some intense work with a guy who had cancer outside. He was sitting on a bucket of sorts having a full power duel ended purge. The shit that was coming out of him was like it was coming from a high pressure hose, he was puking like this also. This scene, strangly enough, stands out in my mind as the mark of what a real Ayahuasca shaman does. They just assist the plants in their work. Their work in my mind, from my observations was to create the proper set and setting. They seemed to know all the ends and out of what Ayahuasca does to people. They know that of some has this reaction they can do this or that to help them through it. Its all "old hat" to them and I was impressed at how they conduct themselves. They seemed to work like doctors do in the ER. They knew exactly what do in any situation.

I was also told that they vary the strength of the ayahuasca to the group they are dealing with. The Ayahuasca they gave us was just as strong as a 40g chacruna/70g Caapi brew. The Ayahuasca the Santo Daime use is not nearly as strong. It is almost like they do not reduce the final extraction. The Santo Daime Ayahuasca I had also tasted slightly fermented.

I have also drank the brew in Columbia also, They use Chalaponga more than the Peruvians. I am under the impression that Chalapong is hardly never used in Peru. This is a very differant brew. The visions and the energy for me at least where stronger.

I would go down with a well known group. I would also keep close to this group and not be lead astray by people outside of it. Dont let anyone outside the group fool you into going to their session for "better" Ayahuasca.

Give it a shot! Take the trip to Peru at least once. For me at leat it was like going to Mecca! LOL! My understanding of the brew is much deeper now that I have seen where it comes from.

#8 phalanx

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Posted 15 January 2005 - 09:35 PM

Sounds like you had a great time!!! I am fairly short of dough for the forseeable future so I won't be going to South America for a LONG time to come. I will keep in mind the group you went with.

$1,500 excluding airfares is way out of my league. I will have to use the virtual "Ayahuasca Airlines" instead.Posted Image

#9 Guest_roo-who-boo-hoo_*

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Posted 15 January 2005 - 10:46 PM

We saved for a few years for it. Some people go to Paris or Las Vegas, but we went to Peru.

The normal tourist destinations realy have nothing to offer me, but this most definatly did.



#10 Son of O'or

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 08:22 PM




International Conference around Amazonian Shamanism

Meeting in Iquitos, Peru, from 16th to 22nd July 2005


"The Church, "Soga del Alma" - "Vine of the Soul" - organizes a Conference for those interested in Amazonian shamanism and ceremonies managed by authentic Amazonian curandero(a)s will also be made available. People who drink Ayahuasca all over the world are most often isolated, drink at home and try to pursue their path by learning from more experienced people they most often meet on the Internet, or by reading books. Most of them only dreamt of going down to South-America, visit the Father-land of the sacred medicina, and meeting curanderos (i.e. healers; South-American shamans). The Vine of the Soul has an immense knowledge to teach to anyone willing to drink its decoction. Curanderos, who use Ayahuasca in order to heal people, reguraly drink the medicina (Ayahuasca) and carry this knowledge with them in order to help other people make contact with the Vine and thereby get the knowledge they need to rebalance their beings, their lives and keep on living wisely, with open eyes on the world.

In it's core, this meeting will allow to make contact with Ayahuasca through curanderos who dedicate their lives to introduce people to it, in the setting they have always been working: the largest forest of the world. This meeting is therefore mainly a meeting with the teacher and healer Ayahuasca in her homeland. There will also be Curanderos who heal with other plants or by other means. Ayahuasca is not going to be the only aspect of this conference; Shamanism will.

The idea of this meeting originated in our will to meet all the people from the Ayahuasca forums, who help each other to prepare Ayahuasca safely and drink it in appropriate settings, although very far from the Jungle, sincerely trying to learn and transmit the wisdom Ayahuasca bestows on them. Therefore, this meeting is also for all the people from this anonymous internet community. How wonderful for all of these people (us) to meet and put a face on the nicknames and avatars we are used to see on computer screens. How wonderful to drink Ayahuasca together and share our love for Pachamama's wisdom, where Man has not yet cut all her her beautiful green hair.

Last but not least, apart from the curanderos who will share with us a plant knowledge that is a priori very foreign to us brought up in the western culture, there will also be talks by western intellectuals who share a true interest in the plant wisdom and do their best to translate it in our western words, thereby working to single out the Vine and its use from the western vision that puts on the same level than other drugs. The following special Guests will be with us this summer: Dr. Dennis McKenna, Luis Eduardo Luna, Peter Gorman and Alan Shoemaker and more.

This International Conference is open to all people in the world willing to drink the medicina with local curanderos and to meet with people sincerely and seriously interested in the Knowledge from the Amazon forest."


More info here

#11 dukex

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 09:08 PM

You know if you hold a mirror up to your nickname.

Did I read about this in my new subscription of Shamans Drum ? maybe not. Sounds like a great trip, I watched a special on the history channel the other night about Machu Picchu I really am feeling the need to go there. My problem I no one that would want to go there. :(

Peace...

#12 Sweetness

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 01:10 PM

$578 RT Airfare to Lima
$124 RT Lima to Iquitos
$44 RT Taxi
$500 Conference (prior to 3/31)

Hmm Nope I can't afford it. But it looks to be quite an experience. :)


The trip I want is 1-way (to return sometime later), hiking trips into the jungle and the Andes, room/board all free... experience the culture and land as long as I want....priceless.

#13 Son of O'or

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 09:24 PM

You know if you hold a mirror up to your nickname.

Did I read about this in my new subscription of Shamans Drum ? maybe not. Sounds like a great trip, I watched a special on the history channel the other night about Machu Picchu I really am feeling the need to go there. My problem I no one that would want to go there. :(

Peace...


You may have saw something in issue 67 of shamans drum.. If you do not have that issue, you should get it.

#14 dukex

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 09:54 PM

Yes I have that one I was looking in 68 no wonder I couldnt find it again.

Peace...

#15 Son of O'or

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 11:00 PM

"The trip I want is 1-way.."

Me also, but I realy have no desire to return.

I spent some time there in the early 90's. I could almost say that part of me is still there, in a strange sort of way. My wife and I are giving serious thought to just leaving here for there, and never coming back. We are just tired. She worked at a job for quite some time and got the shaft. It took her over a year to find another job making less than a half of what she was making. My company just merged with another company, I lost my retirement.I am being forced to do much more with less. I go to work at 3 am and come home at 8 pm. Its very stressfull. From the looks of things there will be very little social security left when I do retire. We will probably end up living in a cardboard box when we get old. Better somewhere we can have Yage than here. I have often though that it would be better when I die to have my body left deep in the jungle. That it might be returned to nature, which is better than being preserved and put into an airtight box. Let me be lunch for the bugs. Maybe a mother Puma will find me and feed her children for a week. Maybe I will become food for a plant that will cure others.

I do not care what they say on the news, times are hard. What do we have to lose? Peru or Brazil? I know of many American farmers who have moved to Brazil and are very happy they did.

People tell us we will not have the same quality of life there as we do here. But we are very simple people anyway.

There are many people here having hard times. It is strange, but more than I can remember in the past few years. Life is going good, then the WAMMY comes, then a few years of peace. There is also a sense of great change in the air, perhaps for the better. It is strange. It is almost like something is ending, but something better is starting. Just another day in samsara...

I will probably not make it this year, but I will the next. This is actualy cheap for something like this. Something like "mindscapes", which MAPS puts on, is 2 or 3 times as much. At least with this one it is more "field" work. I very much hate sitting all day in seminars. Unless Ott is there demonstrating "Yopo"!! Dennis Mckenna reminds me of Terrance in some ways. He is more "academic" than Terrance was, more "sane". He is doing some great work but when Terrance and Dennis got together for a seminar it was very crazy. That does not seem so long ago, but when I count the years back it was over 10 years ago. Terrance has been gone pretty close to 6 years. It seems a shame he got his big break in 98, as far as the "mainstream" goes, and he was dead not so long after that. The botanical specimins he brought back from Peru are still growing in the conservatory he helped create. I have seen people buying fresh vine and chacruna from there. I understand one can have it airmailed to the states. Even stranger yet there are Caapi farms sprouting up in the west and south eastern united states.

I am beyond tired, ramblin on.


'You know if you hold a mirror up to your nickname."
If we hold a mirror up to our faces, do we see ourselves?

#16 Son of O'or

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 11:06 PM

Yes I have that one I was looking in 68 no wonder I couldnt find it again.

Peace...


There is an interview with Jimmy Weiskopf in 67 you would probably enjoy readings also.

#17 Guest_redmonk_*

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Posted 12 March 2005 - 10:45 AM

I'm going (already got my tickets ) . This sounds like something i've been looking for , for a long time . You get to spend time going into the jungle to harvest the vine with the shamans who will be conducting the ceremonies . You also get to observe and help prepare the yage . The speakers that are lined up look to be top-notch (there will also be an open mic for participant input) . Three yage ceremonies will be held concurrently (every other night) , with the group (limited to 100) and the shamans all joining together on the last night for one large group session . My main reason for going though is to experience and pay personal respect to Ayahuasca ....in her true homeland . I'll probably only do something like this once in my lifetime.....and this feels like exactly the right time !

#18 destroy_erase_improve

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Posted 12 March 2005 - 11:50 AM

a good way to circument one way fairs is to simply buy a round trip ticket, and "accidentally" miss the return end of the flight. on average round trip tickets are cheaper than one ways.

just a little tip i happen to know

#19 phalanx

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Posted 12 March 2005 - 01:23 PM

"I spent some time there in the early 90's. I could almost say that part of me is still there, in a strange sort of way. My wife and I are giving serious thought to just leaving here for there, and never coming back. We are just tired. She worked at a job for quite some time and got the shaft. It took her over a year to find another job making less than a half of what she was making. My company just merged with another company, I lost my retirement.I am being forced to do much more with less. I go to work at 3 am and come home at 8 pm. Its very stressfull. From the looks of things there will be very little social security left when I do retire. We will probably end up living in a cardboard box when we get old."

That is outrageous, losing your pension. If you have little tieing you down then you may as well fly. Fuck it. You could conduct aya ceremonies and become a bona fide curandero. I'm sure you'd do a good job of it. All you need is a good relationship with the vine. You could post here occasionally telling us what a great time you are having and make us all jealous. :)

Redmonk, fill us in on all the gossip when you get back from the conference. I would love to hear about it.

#20 dukex

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Posted 12 March 2005 - 06:49 PM

"If we hold a mirror up to our faces, do we see ourselves?"


I see what I have created and I am sure that no one else would see the same thing. Probably describe some features that we can agree on but no one else would see what I see.

There is a 'B' chinese movie out there that has a good theme. This student wanted all the answers to the universe and was told by master there would be three tests. If he was able to pass them and survived he would give him the answer he seeked.

Well he gets through the first test rather easily the second was dealing with these evil killer monkeys on a pass he needed to get by.(fear)
And the third was the one that almost killed him. (mortality)

So he goes back to the master and he gives him the book with all the answers to the universe. He opens this book and as he looks into it, it is a mirror.
All you ever wanted to know is inside you...

Peace...




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