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Shroom bust in Tumwater Washington


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#41 mindovermycelia

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Posted 31 October 2005 - 10:13 AM

anybody has the right to change their mind on a subject, but here is a quote from hippie3:

it's not the overall amount of 'magic' that declines,
it's the concentration.
gram for gram by percentage
as opposed to total amount.
the increase in weight is mostly water and spores,
neither of which add to the potency.
in addition, the presence of spores renders the caps quite bitter.
these criteria presuppose than one is growing with quality paramount,
and quantity secondary.


here is the link: http://mycotopia.net...ges/5/3908.html

#42 alounacara

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Posted 31 October 2005 - 10:27 AM

Hippie you should have been a lawyer

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#43 mindovermycelia

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Posted 31 October 2005 - 10:30 AM

here's a post from nan:

Well Lichen, I guess we both saw this coming. I nearly cringed when I read your post...

Not to argue, but just some additional info.

I have a hard enough time getting off on shrooms as it is. A good dose for me is about 9-14 grams of primo dried pre-sporulated shrooms.

If the shrooms have sporulated, forget it. I catch a buzz from 1/2 ounce dried, but it always leaves me scratching my head wondering why my trip lasted as long as an amusement part ride.

Yes there is still magic in post-sporulating shrooms. Most people who dose in the 1-4 gram range will be very happy eating mature post-sporulating fruits. For people with heads of concrete like I have... Here's the tips:

Grow shrooms on grain... PF TEK, Cased Grain Tek, it makes little difference, but grain substrate grown shrooms make a noticeable difference to me.

Pick second or third flush shrooms pre-veil breaking.

If I do this I can dose with as little as 8-9 grams and really feel it.

A post-sporulated first flush shroom grown on straw or compost... For me personally... Is a waste of time chewing. I can eat them till I am bloated, the experience is just not the same... To me.

It is likely you guys are not able to determine a significant difference because you are more sensitive. Take away that sensitivity, and you would likely notice the difference.

For most of you guys, Lichen & Vitti are correct. For the minority who really have to grow and dose heavy to get off... Listen to PF.

And remember no two people are the same, no two people grow the same, no two trips are the same. Your best bet is to do what works for you.



#44 Hippie3

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Posted 31 October 2005 - 10:35 AM

i know what i said
but i did not say the difference
was significant,
i was merely expounding
upon the argument
as commonly presented.

note what i did not say
as well as what i did,
there is a significant difference.

my position is still that the difference
is quite minor, if it is indeed even real.
but the natural variation in individual samples
as well as the lack of empirical evidence
and the natural decay of the alkaloids
renders the point hard to prove.

#45 the_chosen_one

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Posted 31 October 2005 - 03:27 PM

HIP SAYS --- "no one knows how old this individual was
when he began growing shrooms,
it may have been just a year or two ago.
thus
no reason to assume great deal of experience,
and his arrest argues the same-
most busts happens shortly after one goes too big."

I haven't read this whole thread so please forgive me if I make an ass out of myself.
This guy was actually quite educated in mushroom cultivation. He and some others teach classes in growing edibles. I know, I was in one. His classes have been cancelled with no explanation. I was told it would be at least a couple of months if any at all.
Kinda scary! This one hit very close to home.

#46 don't know

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 02:06 AM

So then let me change one word - instead of "PROOF", how about
"EVIDENCE".
Well it looks like I got some more REAL GOOD EVIDENCE here on this
thread. I suppose "PROOF" is a bit extreme, but this "EVIDENCE" is
really good and supports my years old claim that the young presporulation
veil intact specimens are clearly superiour.


quote
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
alounacara

I tend to agree with the young before veil starts tearing aspect as far as potency especially after this weekend
I hadnt dosed in a long time due to personal issues and like most people abused shrooms in the past so i was kinda skeptical about dosing in public I was at our Rennisance festival and only ate 3 smallish barely mature PF Classics and really didnt expect to feel very much It turned into one of my most enjoyable shroom experiances ever
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
MNL
Mycotopiate
Procare, the major grower in the Netherlands (between 15,000 and 18,000 kilo/year production) sells all shrooms with a closed cap, veil unbroken. I don't know if thats for potency or appearance - but the largest commercial producer of magic mushrooms sells them closed.
--------------------------------------------------------------- unquote


As far as this appearance thing - I find properly dried full grown cubies are really nice lookin with whitish stems and golden caps. Sporulation can put dark colors on the cap, but as far as any bad look, it aint there.
So this argument about appearance is nothing. There is no real difference in the appearance as fas as alure goes at all.
But with 18000 Kilos a year with all the caps closed is clearly for one thing - quality and potency.
Appearance is nothing when full grown cubies are nicer looking than immature ones. I mean the
full grown specimens LOOK LIKE SHROOMS FOR REAL.
OK, so flush "PROOF" and lets go with "EVIDENCE". And you can decide with the evidence and it
looks good for my side of the argument.

The Prof

#47 reverend trips

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 05:46 AM

I will agree with one thing you said proff, and that is that that guy was probably an experienced grower, but would you not agree with me that it is a lot easier to keep an operation like that nice tidy when you don't have a huge spore dump to deal with after every flush?
I'm sure packaging plays a role in the decision on when to pick as well, for the comercial growers,I mean, look how nice those ones in that pic line up.
For every truckload of them ones, it would take probably 3 truckloads of opened caped mushrooms of the same weight.
I don't believe for a sec they were picked at that stage for potency.

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#48 Hippie3

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 06:53 AM

speaking of evidence-
so far the direct poll is also indicating that
the "potency" difference must be rather minor,
else more folks would have noticed and voted
in favor of pf's theory,
which right now is polling just at 40% agreed,
less than half

#49 Guest_dial8_*

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 10:56 AM

Here is the issue for me. I do not beleive that there is any real difference in potency. Even if there is a noticeable difference a small pinner that weighs 0.2 grams dry could potentially become a mature mushroom that weighs 3 grams dry. This fact alone is enough for me to let it mature because I can get off well on 2 grams of mature mushroom material. Now, hypothetically, if that 0.2 gram pinner was equivalent to 2 grams of mature shroom matter then for every 0.2 gram pinner I can have a resonable trip but for every 3 gram mature shroom I can have 1.5 trips. The fact is you will have to grow more shrooms to get off if you pick them at the pin stage then if you let them mature. Hypothetically two 0.2 gram pins are equal 2 trips but two 3 gram mature shrooms are equal to 3 trips.

#50 Guest_freakachino_*

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 11:06 AM

I just eat em and go to another place....they all seem to work for me.

I am under the belief that its each person who gets a different reaction to the chemical compounds. So for some it may be "more potent" for unopened caps, for another it may be just as potent with open caps. Everyone I have shared my gifts with has a different feel and type of trip off the same flush with some open some closed caps or all open and all closed caps. I am of the belief its our bodies that determine how the potency of the fruitbody is going to affect us.

#51 don't know

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 03:00 PM

MORE EVIDENCE FOR HIGHER POTENCY IN YOUNG CUBIES:

Notice - this is not PROOF!!!!!!! But if you don't have predispositions for
fundamentalist mindset in hanging like a bulldog on what you WANT to
believe - here is some GREAT EVIDENCE for what this thread has
swerved into.

GARTZ - Magic mushrooms around the world

pg 27 "Some investigators have found differences in alkaloid content
when comparing single fruiting bodies from the same location".
"Smaller mushrooms almost always contained more alkaloids than
larger specimens. This finding was then confirmed by another study
using considerably larger amount of investigative materials (40
mushrooms)".

pg 65 "On the other hand, my own experiments revealed that levels of
psilocin and psilocybine in very old and strongly discolored fruiting bodies
and mycelia of psilocybe cubensis were considerable lower in comparison
to younger specimens."

STAMETS Psilocybin mushrooms of the world
pg 36 "Additionally, Gartz (1992) found the younger specimens are generally
more potent than mature ones, and observation many users have also made".

pg 52 "However, many of us have found that, by mass, the juvenile mushrooms
are usually much more potent that the adults".

I have said stuff like this in my PF TEK
ever since I put it on the web years ago. And my findings were based on
my years as a magic tripper and supplier to other magic trippers who
all eventually only wanted the aborts and preveil opened specimens after they
to experienced the difference for themselves. There were no arguments, ever. And I will add that I get off like a rocket with the full effects on 2 & 1/2 grams of dried young presporulation PF classics. And to say further, I find young presporulation dried PF classics equal to LIB CAPS (in my experience) - that is why the drug dealer haverested young and the DUTCH do it that way.
When I used to grow shrooms for tripping, I made a very concerted effort to pick them when they are babies which lowered my yield considerable. But since I am a serious tripper, I don't fuck around with shrooms that are inferior in potency. I go every effort to get the very best.

Now the only way to actually PROVE this, is for a chemist to grow the shrooms (PF STYLE) and harvest them at the different stages and dry them all the same way. And there should be a large amount to do. Then ascertain the alkaloid content by percentage. Now of course, that will never ever be done. So as far as scientific PROOF? It aint going to happen. But when you add up the EVIDENCE (as circumstantial as it is) - the reasons to believe me is very heavy and I didn't deserve to be slandered.


The Prof

#52 alounacara

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 03:14 PM

I recieved a call today from a friend who told me that 1 dry gm of my PF`s was enough for noticable effects, I said earlier in this thread that i took 3 smallish unopened caps this weekend and was really surprised
The amount that i took couldnt have been more than 1.5 gms so i believe the Professor is right about this
I used to grow only EQ`s and this was the case with that species also
Another thing like about a unopened immature species is i dont get sick near as easy

#53 Guest_dial8_*

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 03:14 PM

Hey, prof, I genuinely believe that most people respect and admire you greatly. I am one of them! :)
No one was slandering you they were just stating that you have no clonclusive scientific evidence, and as you mention, there may never be any such proof.
Everyone is not going to agree with you. Disagreeing and questioning is what drives advancements. Please keep posting and please remain an active member of the omc. It is good to have you back.

#54 Hippie3

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 03:16 PM

i see no numbers, no qualitative analysis,
just anecdotal reports,
stamets is just quoting gartz
and gartz has no numbers either.
the polling of many actual grower-consumers
shows no clear-cut edge to pre-sporulation shrooms,
of course their names aren't as well known as gartz or stamets or pf
but that doesn't render their observations any less valid.

-------stage-----------------------------------------votes-----percentage
right before sporulation begins [veil still intact]--- 16-------34.78%
after reaching maximum size/weight----------------3-------6.52%
matters not, pick anytime you want, it's all good---20----43.48%
very young, at the 'abort' stage/size------------------7-----15.22%

as to whether you deserve slander,
i figure you get what you give,
fair enough.
you want respect
then give it.

#55 don't know

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 03:39 PM

i see no numbers, no qualitative analysis,
just anecdotal reports,
stamets is just quoting gartz


STAMETS - psilocybin mushrooms of the world

pg 52 "However, many of us have found that, by mass, the juvenile mushrooms are usually much more potent that the adults".

Stamets says "many of US" When you use the word "US" you are
not referring to the UNITED STATES - but oneself, as in ME or I.

So Stamets is definitely saying right there that his experience says the
juvenile shrooms are usually MUCH MORE potent than the adults.

So its PF, Stamets, Gartz, the 18000 Kilogram dutch supplier and the drug dealer that are saying exactly what this thread has swerved into, the that young shrooms are the ones for the serious trippers.

That's pretty fucking heavy!! So give it up Hippie man!! The heavies got it on you.

The Prof

#56 Beast

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 04:29 PM

I don't understand how a "heavy" is less succeptible to misinterpretation of his subjective experience than anyone else.

If P. Stamets is reporting on his subjective experience how is that any different than me, other than I'm not trying to sell books, or my ability to be a mushroom guru who charges thousands of dollars to impart his mystical mushroom growing knowledge?

The only party in this thread who mentions having objective scientific test results that show differing potency levels is that dutch company. But they refuse to reveal such results, why? perhaps they have something to lose? Businesses operate with profits first, honesty, ethics, etc way past second.

I think I'd trust the judgement of someone who doesn't have an ego or huge business investment depending on the results, as it seems a more independent judgement. Even then its still suspect.

I say again, when a biochemist tests a plant to see what levels of compounds exist, a machine or some other sort of testing apparatus is used. In Stamet's book, Psilocybe Mushrooms of the World, there is a graph depicting differences of alkaloid contents of various species of psilocybes, this must be based on some sort of scientific test, other wise how could such a graph be made? The proof is out there, and anecdotal evidence is more worthless than shit as you can't even grow mushrooms on it.

As far as people deciding which type of mushroom is more potent based on their experience, I've found that mere belief can potentiate or cancel the effects of such an experience. Believing that something is more potent prepares your mind for the journey.

Any 'professor' should be well aware of the differences between objective and subjective experiences, and the scientific validity thereof. Saying 'see I was right' seems very childish to me, especially given the lack of scientific evidence presented so far

I don't care how many bioassayists say it is so professional or otherwise, professional ufologists say aliens are visiting us all the time, some people claim to see ghosts, some people get sick from mushrooms and have scary trips others don't. Its subjective, and until the subjectivity is accounted for its pointless to argue about it.

#57 Hippie3

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 04:42 PM

the argument tactic of
appeal to authority
[so-and-so says it & he's famous = so it must be true]
is a logical fallacy,
as any first year student of logic knows.

#58 spacecowboy

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 05:06 PM

Guess I'll put in my two cents......

I have always thought that the psilocibin compounds were a defense mechanism used by the mushrooms to ensure that it can reach maturity and reproduce. Therefore, as the mushroom reaches its maturity and releases its spores it no longer needs to make or maintain the defense compunds. So the younger the mushroom, the more potent it is in order to fend off predators that try and eat them. For all I know the compound could also be posinous to insect too.

But thats just my thought, feel free to leave your feed back.

#59 thinknot

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 05:16 PM

I'm a brewer, and in beermaking we spend a lot of time studying the biochemical processes that are involved with yeast metabolism.

Pathways such as amino acid metabolism, carbohydrate consumption, and lipid metabolism are highly influential in the final product's flavor. For instance, enzymatic reduction of diacetyl (a diketone that tastes sort of like rancid butterscotch) by yeast is only accomplished after primary fermentation and is closely related to temperature. Controlling this characteristic in beer influences the maturation process.

With respect to the above example (and to many other organic biochemical processes), each yeast strain is different, and each pitching culture is different based on how it was sampled and propagated. The first rule in brewing is that the answer to all questions is "It depends". We rarely try to use absolutes to describe these types of behavior.

I mention all of this because it occured to me that a good place to start some constructive discussion with regards to cubensis potency (and flavor too!), would be with the major biochemical pathways that a fungus follows in order to consume it's substrate.

#60 Guest_xxxsevxxx_*

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 05:57 PM

imo the reason that guy was picking before the veils ripped could simply be that a grow room that massive would throw a spore load into the air that could make a person sick. Just my lil grow opp sends up so many spores that I get purple freaking buggers. also this is all conjecture tell someone uses a spectrometer to actually test cloned mushrooms and there potency variants from primordial stage to full blown open caps .
later VII




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