46 replies to this topic

[Dr.Hallucination]

Last week I ran out of vermiculite,went to the local depot and grabbed a bag.When it came time to use it,I was greeted with a bag of dust.This happens to me the odd time.The end of a run produces a lot of dust and sometimes gets bagged.Well even though this sucks I was not at a total loss as I have quite a few bags of Water Crystals,in fact I have an infinite supply of them in all colors.
Water Crystals are very cool,I like to put them in dishes and root plants in them,fill a dish add flowers and they make great center pieces for your table,and they can also be used as a casing layer for growing mushrooms.Water crystals hold a lot of water,many times there weight.Water crystals are non-toxic and environmentally friendly.They will completely degrade into water and carbon dioxide.
I have contacted the company of the crystals that I am using and they informed me that the majority of the water crystals used for plants are in fact potassium based water crystals.Items like diapers and tampons tend to have the sodium based crystals which are no good for our use.Be careful where you buy your water crystals,lower quality crystals can have other additives that may harm your projects.You can use the crystals alone or mix them with your favorite casing for that extra bit of water retention.To use soak in water for 4 hours until fully expanded,strain very well,Break pieces up into desired size and use the same way you would vermiculite,alone or in a mix.Remember this is just for casing's,not a vermiculite replacement.

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[duaut]

Polymers should not be ingested. My mother owns a flower shop and sells these same water crystals, and they are not ment for human ingestion.

[Dr.Hallucination]

Polymers should not be ingested. My mother owns a flower shop and sells these same water crystals, and they are not meant for human ingestion.

...I don't own a flower shop,but I work in one,use them all the time.I will quote from a book here,"Water crystals have been tested to be safe when used in mushroom cultivation.Button mushrooms(Agaricus bisporus)grown in there presence were shown not to degrade or incorporate the chemical components of the gel."..J.Agaric.Food Chem. 1993,41,1261-1263,,,,http://pubs.acs.org/...021/jf00032a019 as I mentioned before they come in two forms,potassium and sodium based,this may be the confusion,mabee not,but according to the book,Psilocybin Mushroom Handbook,They are indeed safe to use,The link is the study,if you can prove otherwise please I would like to see it,until then I think I will go with it.Not trying to say you are wrong,or your mother for that matter,But I'm sure a published book would not pass on faulty information,Mabee they are wrong?.P.S. Don't eat the Water Crystal's.Clean them Off,just like you would Vermiculite,perlite,or anything else you use as your casing layer.

[Dr.Hallucination]

The use of water crystals is also mentioned in Paul Stamets book Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms Third Edition.and I quote..."Recently "water crystals"a water capturing plastic,have been tried as a casing component with varying results.These crystals can absorb up to 400 times there weight in water and Do Not Support Contaminates,two highly desirable characteristics.Unfortunately the fact that water crystals are not fully biodegradable and cannot be easily recovered from the spent substrate greatly limite there acceptance by environmentally inclined growers.Starch based water absorbants tend to clump and must be added with an aggregate.Cultivators must weigh and balance these factors when designing the casing mixture".

[Dr.Hallucination]

So what I gather is that water crystals have an amazing ability for water retention,up to 400 times,and it doesn't leak out,its slowly released as needed,your casing layer is contaminant resistant.After a bit of research the crystals do break down in time,into carbon dioxide and water.As for the clumping together you can solve that by making sure the crystals are allowed to drain very well,and don't break the pieces up too small,you have complete control of the size of the pieces you make.I like a finer more crushed up crystal for the bottom of the cake,and a little larger for the top.For casings I would use large pieces,or just add some to your casing mix for water retention.It may also be noted that consuming vermiculite can't be to healthy either.I know we all clean our mushrooms the best we can but there is always the odd piece stuck in the stem there somewhere,the dust from using it alone is not healthy,this goes for perlite as well,coir is usually full of trich,we all wear dust masks right?...As long as your not consuming this gel like its jell-o things should be just fine.Defiantly will be doing more tests with the crystals now.

[duaut]

Published books pass on false data all the time.
they still are made up of plastic polymers and after breaking down as you say there is still plastic left, they are not harmless.

[Dr.Hallucination]

Published books pass on false data all the time.
they still are made up of plastic polymers and after breaking down as you say there is still plastic left, they are not harmless.

I didn't say they did not fully decompose at all,Paul stamets did in his book,that was a quote.but like I said after doing some research I found they do in fact fully degrade into water and carbon dioxide.Water Crystals Tested and approved.Water Crystals are inert. They will not be absorbed into plants or migrate into ground water.
By absorbing the water near the root zone of plants, Water Crystals will hold nitrates, phosphates, potassium, iron, zinc, boron and other water-soluble elements within their reservoirs. Doing so reduces the leaching of these elements into ground water. Research has shown that the crystals actually attract microorganisms essential to plant growth, serving as an additional nourishment and improving the soil.
Water Crystals fill and release. With rain, normal watering, or crop irrigation, the crystals expand to capture and retain excess moisture in the soil. This property reduces run-off.
When they dehydrate or empty through feeding roots, their shrinkage causes the soil to naturally aerate, reducing compaction and hardness.
Water Crystals are a super absorbent polymer (SAP) that has been shown to be 95% effective as a soil amendment for as long as 12+ years.
The U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has certified these Water Crystals are non-hazardous. The products have been certified under 29CFR1910.1200.Also a quote from Laurence CASTLE
Central Science Laboratory Department of Environment , Food and Rural Affair.`Mushrooms were analyzed by extraction,bromination,and quantification of acryamide as 2-bromopropenamide using gas chromatography-mass spectrometry in the selected ion mode.No acryamide monomer could be detected at a limit of detection of 0.5ug/kg.This demonstrates that acryamide either does not translocate significantly from the mycelia to the mushroom fruit or that the monomer does not bio accumulate,due perhaps to a high water solubility or chemical reactivity.So since the cross linked polymers do not get incorporated into the mushrooms them selves,or at least in minuscule amount``,YA I would say they are rather Harmless to use,Unless you are actually consuming the gel,who would do that anyway,I can't see any harm in using them.Like I said before convince me other wise with some real scientific data duaut and then yes I will agree with you.Until then I have plenty of data supporting they are in fact safe to use in mushroom cultivation.Just don't eat the Gel.

[Dr.Hallucination]

Here is the MSDS on water Crystals.

Potassium (K) http://www.watercrys...MSDS_PWC_2 .pdf

Sodium (Na) http://www.watercrys...com/WC_MSDS.pdf

[Dr.Hallucination]

But in the end,why throw them out at all,when they dry out,simply re-hydrate and use them in the soil of your plants for water retention,put them in your garden,or around your fruit trees,Have a reptile that eats crickets,use the gel to feed your crickets water.No need to simply discard.

[Dr.Hallucination]

Some pic's from the next day.The cakes with the water crystals are doing a bit better then the vermiculite and the 50/50verm /coir cases.And they just look cool.I think it would look better with a color though,think I will mix up a few colors next time.

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[Dr.Hallucination]

So it has been a couple of day's and the 2 cakes with the water crystals are finished,the vermiculite is following closely behind,and the 50/50 verm coir has one pin.They were all cased and fruited at the same time in the same FC.That extra water in the casing defiantly help's a lot from what I can see.It is fairly easy to clean the mushrooms,I use a dull knife the same as when I use vermiculite.It comes off just as well if not better because it doesn't get pushed in the mushroom like the vermiculite does.The mushrooms were no wetter at the base then they would be using vermiculite either.One thing I think I will change next time is I will try to use larger pieces to see if cleaning is any easier.Not like it was hard to begin with,but if I can just pick the mushroom,and flick the water crystals off I think it would be nice.Cleaning can be quite the task sometimes.Think I will try adding a few water crystals to vermiculite for my next casing......Coco-coir,,,,I hate this stuff with a passion sometimes.Almost every time I use it as a casing,whether it's 50/50,60/40 it doesn't matter,I never have good results with it.I find it becomes too dense and it always colonizes very tightly on me,or it just dries out.That one cake didn't even get that pin until I soaked the top and bottom the other day to the point water ran down the cake.I dried that,lol.I ended up with 72g wet from those two water crystal cakes.Well here are a few pic's of the result's.

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[Dr.Hallucination]

The remaining pics.

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[Soliver]

Those crystals do make one wonder - I'd bet they have all kind of uses around the
grow area :)

Although, if you plan on getting a second flush from your cakes, you probably shouldn't
palm them like that - your hand is like a giant contam sponge...

thanks for the info & keep us posted!

:)

soliver

[Dr.Hallucination]

Those crystals do make one wonder - I'd bet they have all kind of uses around the
grow area :)

Although, if you plan on getting a second flush from your cakes, you probably shouldn't
palm them like that - your hand is like a giant contam sponge...

thanks for the info & keep us posted!

:)

soliver

Ya,I am sure they can be used for many different things as well.As for the cake,I rarely do a 2nd flush with cakes,those two got crushed up for a small little casing.I have always handled my cakes without gloves,Always wash with alcohol though,never had a contam from doing it either.but ya I agree,not great practice.

[Dr.Hallucination]

Ya,I am sure they can be used for many different things as well.As for the cake,I rarely do a 2nd flush with cakes,those two got crushed up for a small little casing.I have always handled my cakes without gloves,Always wash with alcohol though,never had a contam from doing it either.but ya I agree,not great practice.

With that being said,I don't always,Not wear gloves.When I do inoculations,spore prints,making syringes,break up sub,etc and so on,Yes,I normally do wear them.But some times I am in a rush,or just ran out,Although I do have a big box full of them so there is no excuse there lol.But if I do have to touch the cakes I am always as clean as possible.I am always showered before I do any work,and I always spray my hands and arms with 90% iso,I do that regardless if I am wearing gloves or not.Will usually wear dust mask too,but again I forget at times.

[Soliver]

I hear you there... sometimes it's easier to prep a ton of jars than to follow sterile practice all the time.

Having to shower and sterilize yourself before messing with cakes is a pain in the ass,
and when the yields are relatively low, it's no big deal to lose a handful of cakes after
first flush.

However, if you ever move on to bulk substrates, the habits you make will make will
certainly affect your success - one wrong move on a 15 pound bulk tub can mean
days worth of efforts down the drain.... I learned that one the hard way, as I suppose we all
do when shifting to larger projects :)

Keep us posted on these crystals, etc., as I'm curious as to their potential in our hobby,

:)

soliver

[Dr.Hallucination]

I hear you there... sometimes it's easier to prep a ton of jars than to follow sterile practice all the time.

Having to shower and sterilize yourself before messing with cakes is a pain in the ass,
and when the yields are relatively low, it's no big deal to lose a handful of cakes after
first flush.

However, if you ever move on to bulk substrates, the habits you make will make will
certainly affect your success - one wrong move on a 15 pound bulk tub can mean
days worth of efforts down the drain.... I learned that one the hard way, as I suppose we all
do when shifting to larger projects :)

Keep us posted on these crystals, etc., as I'm curious as to their potential in our hobby,

:)

soliver

Ya I hear ya on showering and keeping overly clean for this hobbie,I normally am quite clean and usually do practice sterile techniques.But sometimes I,as well as many others I am sure just get lazy sometimes,or just forget to put those gloves on,and yes like you said,loosing a few cakes the odd time is no big deal,although I honestly have never lost a cake from handling it without gloves.But I am always freshly showered and use alcohol constantly on my hands and arms.Even still I am not trying to promote not using them.There like condoms kids,Use them.

As for bulk,I have done bulk grows,and yes you have to be a lot more careful when working with larger amounts of material.I would never think of doing grains,straw,manure,etc without proper technique in mind.I am currently working on a couple bulk grows.I am working on a P.azurescens,and a P.cyanofriscosa bed for this year.But this is becoming quite a challenge due to lack of space.May end up having to cut one of them out,and cutting down on the size of bed as well.Or move to a new location,which is also starting to look like it may be a nice idea.

The crystals...Ya I too am becoming more and more curious about them.I was pretty impressed with the results from those two cakes.The other three vermiculite cakes I ended up with 88g wet.I got 72g wet from the 2 water crystal cakes.So the math on that is apx 29g per cake wet on the vermiculite cakes and apx 36g wet per cake when using the water crystals.That's a difference of apx 7g wet per cake.I think I will have to run a few more tests like this to see how consistent this would be.Also compare dry weight's.I have recently noticed the mycelium is growing on,as well as into a few of the water crystals.Since the crystals can not harbor contaminants I was thinking that a transfer to grains from one of these crystals with mycelium on it may be in order.

[oakchild]

Yeah, comparing the wet weight is inherently flawed. Definitely need to compare dry weight. BTW, was this isolate/clone or multispore?

Blessings,
Oakchild

8-)

[Dr.Hallucination]

was this isolate/clone or multispore?

Blessings,
Oakchild

8-)

Multispore oakchild.

[Caljet666]

Were those cakes multispore or an isolate?