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*** Gummihuasca experiment: Black Currant Juice + Lemon Juice ***


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#21 blackout

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 04:22 AM

Ribena is actually pretty low in blackcurrant, in the UK & Ireland anyway. Tescos do a high % blackcurrant drink that is lovely, I never dosed with it but will. I think it is 35% juice, where ribena is only 4% from their site. Overpriced crap.

#22 TVCasualty

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 01:42 PM

This was conducted last night.

Species: P. cubensis (unknown strain)

Quantity: 1/3 gram (bone dry unopened 'bullet')

Last meal: burrito 4 hours before

Last trip: .5 dry gram in honey-Ginkgo mix 11 days before

Preparation: Took 1 lemon and 1/2 lime (both fresh) juiced at room temp. 1/3 gram mushroom chopped in coffee grinder until medium-fine flaky powder. Soaked ground mushroom in 3/4 OZ of juice mix for 18 minutes at room temp.

Ingestion: Held juice in mouth for two full minutes to test theory about quicker sublingual absorption. Good thing mouth wasn't full as juice stimulated salivary glands; by 2 minutes mouth was full and had to swallow. See "Problems and Concerns" below.

First Alert: (all times listed are from moment introduced to mouth, including 2 minute soak) +5min 30 sec. At this time I noticed the usual spine-tingle of impending trip, although I suspect a placebo effect.

+7min: body waves felt (subtle but distinct), pupils dilated 1mm diameter from baseline. I think this might be the actual first alert.
+7 to +18min: no perceptible change from +7
+18min: body feels slightly separate from mind
+23min: very body-conscious
+24min: tingly feeling all over
+28min: stomach gurgling
+30min: intensification steadily rising
+33min: smoked bowl of Jack Herer (2 bong hits) and started watching a movie

+57min: WHOA! RAPID step-up of effects to new level. Wavy visuals, excellent color rendering, introspective moments of extreme clarity and hilarity. Would NOT consider answering the phone, dealing with an emergency would be difficult. This is a THIRD of a gram?!?

+2hr 0min: Rapid step-down of effects as startling as the upswing at +57. Distinctly felt a 'let go' of peak effects, although colors are still soft-edged and vivid. This was noticed at EXACTLY 2 hours on the dot. Massive munchy attack, after which stomach felt great.

+3hr 22min: Quick energy drop, suddenly very tired like the comedown from an adrenaline rush. It is now 10:40pm and I'm finished. I could easily fall asleep if I desire. Incredible.

+4hr 6min: Completely back to baseline.

I couldn't believe I was writing a trip report like this off a THIRD of a gram. I normally dose low most of the time (the .5 to 1 gram amounts mixed with Ginkgo biloba in honey), but mine are grown on BRF, wheat grain, and cracked corn (all mixed in one substrate) and are considered by many to be quite strong. This is a functional level for me (eat and go cycling, for example). Twice a year I eat 5+ grams for the mental steam-cleaning. One impression I was left with was that the lemon mix cannot be compared to straight dry. There is a qualitative difference in the experience, probably due to the rapidity. 1/3 gram in lemon is NOT equivalent to .6 or 1 dry gram; it's more vivid than 1/3 straight dry but not the same as some other higher dry dose.

PROBLEMS and CONCERNS:

Grinding that small a quantity was difficult, had to scrape pieces off walls of grinder. Would prefer to have ground the mushroom to a finer powder, some no doubt was lost as unrecoverable dust stuck to the grinder.

After swallowing the juice held for 2 min., I brushed my teeth. OUCH!! My gumline was extremely sensitive. My teeth were whiter. Some sensitivity was still noticed following morning. Did some research, this is what I found:

"Tooth Enamel: What is it?
The outside surface of our teeth, the enamel, is composed of an inorganic matrix predominately filled with calcium salts. Inside our teeth is another layer called the dentin. It is composed of approximately 28%organic matter and 72% inorganic (calcium).

Citric Acid Bath
So what happens when we bathe our teeth in an acid bath, such as citric acid from lemons or carbonic acid from soda? The inorganic calcium salts are dissolved. The tooth becomes decalcified leaving a soft organic matrix that can be easily abraded away or invaded by bacteria and hence decayed. A typical individual who has habitually been sucking on lemons will have lost the enamel on the front of their teeth and perhaps even display acid erosion on the biting surfaces of their back teeth. Drinking large quantities of soda will also cause a generalized decalcification of the teeth."


And, "Instructions: I would just like to say that Vitamin C will damage teeth quicker than anything else. So brushing with Lemon juice is BAD. It makes your teeth whiter at first because it breaks down the composition of your teeth...first the stained layer, then the regular layers of enamel until you are getting them pulled. I would suggest only using lemon juice when brushing for a short time, and very sparingly!

The reason that lemon juice "works" is that it causes the teeth to lose calcium (which gives teeth some of their off-white color). Calcium is a major component of healthy teeth, and once it is lost, your teeth become very susceptible to decay. DO NOT use lemon juice for whitening. If you choose to brush with strawberries, be sure to brush your teeth IMMEDIATELY afterwards with fluoride toothpaste and also FLOSS. The sugar and acid in the strawberry will harm your teeth more than it will help if you don't immediately brush your teeth with regular toothpaste. Also be cautious of brushing too vigorously as the strawberry seeds could damage the gums (or even the teeth)."

So it appears that brushing after the lemon soak is BAD, due to softening of enamel. Better to basify mouth with tums or milk, but DON'T swallow base to prevent affecting stomach contents, THEN brush. Probably best to not soak at all.

Placebo effect:
As set is so vital to the experience, a strong desire for this to work would likely manifest a placebo effect. I probably ALWAYS manifest a placebo effect because I am so looking forward to my forthcoming experience that as soon as I detect the slightest tingle I dive into it, 'reaching' with my mind into the experience with relish, anticipation, gusto, and zeal. I often report alerts well before others (but NEVER at 5 to 7 minutes on ANY dose, earliest was 11min with 5 grams). This led me to think I may be 'cancelling out' the placebo effect since it is always present and therefore it's effect is negligible within a comparison. For example, if I always 'placebo alert' at 12-20 minutes, then a 'placebo alert' at 5-7minutes might not be a placebo effect at all. My experience is based on at least 200 mushroom trips over the last 17 years (among other things).

Theoretical Musings:
The acidic juice at room temp or above causes dephosphorylation of psilocybin to psilocin in vitro during soak, and also allows the psilocin to go into solutuion as a salt (this part is a given). Theory: as a salt, psilocin can be absorbed sublingually possibly accelerated by the body's active transport of Vitamin C into the blood. Once in the blood (which is alkaline) the salt likely changes again to a form that crosses the Blood-Brain Barrier. This change might take some time, accounting for the rapid step-up felt at about +60 minutes and also accounting for rapid step-down once metabolized since the entire dose was absorbed rapidly and would therefore depart rapidly (strangely enough, psilocin is excreted in urine unchanged chemically, so is it "metabolized" or simply flushed out??)

Supporting quotes: "After ingestion, psilocybine is dephosphorylated to psilocine, which then evokes psychotropic effects, and is subsequently excreted substantially unaltered in the urine." (several citations in Ott, 1996)

And "Psilocine by itself will produce identical effects and, lacking the inactive phosphoryl group of psilocybine, is about 1.4 times the potency- that is, it has equimolar potentcy." (Wolbach et.al. 1962B, Ott 1996)

The above quote is intriguing and lends support to a theory of potentiation as well as an increase in rapidity of ingestion using the lemon juice, which a large number of anecdotal reports opine. Chemically, you are boosting potency 1.4 times, add to that a placebo effect and the 2X-3X reports make sense.

Conclusions:
This works, and is just the beginning of a series of 1000 tests I intend to conduct as soon as possible. It's almost a new drug experience. I will be tinkering with delivery methods (lollipops, lemon AID, DMSO, etc.) that might help with the tooth issue (a lollipop is better than a straight lemon soak I think, plus you might could keep a low-level buzz all night if you lick it slowly and you could take one anywhere!!). An impression I was left with after my experience plus reading numerous anecdotes from other sites is that there might be a logarithmic curve to effects at increasing dosages. A third of a gram made for a great time, and people
reporting using this with 1,2,3, and up to 4 grams report stronger and stronger effects out of synch with the curve I'd expect if comparing straight dry doses. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND this experiment.

To the discoverer/poster of this discovery: :cool: and:bow:

TVC

#23 morthos

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 06:49 PM

I'm looking to try this...I have 500ml Ribena conc. juice available, as well as lemons/limes. It's my first of 3 days off, and I'd like to try this tonight. I tried this last week but think I goofed; I diluted the conc. Ribinena with water, about 100ml of the conc. bottle. I also had the diluted juice & 4g mush at the same time, instead of conc. juice an hour b4 the mush.

Is it required that the mushrooms be powdered and soaked in either of the juices for this to work? I would prefer to drink juice 1hr b4 eating the mush, and then to eat my mush in a powdered form mixed with honey. Mixing powdered mush with juices and drinking that doesn't sound as easy.

Am I understanding that this thread is talking about enhancing a mush trip by two methods, 1 being MAO inhibitors within the blackberry juice and 2 the active chemicals of the mush being affected by soaking in lemon/lime juice?

I'd like to stay inside and get the visuals going tonight. :) Thanks for any help!

#24 morthos

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 06:56 PM

Blackout mentioned that Ribena is only 4% juice? Is this to mean it is not effective for this?

#25 Hippie3

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 06:59 PM

just noticed
the pix are hosted
offsite-
never a good idea

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#26 Hippie3

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 07:02 PM

morthos
as far as i know
this method remains unproven,
the effects may well be placebo,
so you tell us if it works.
and yeah,
i think the claim is as you stated,
supposedly both the juice and the lemon
each boost the effects,
but i am a bit of a skeptic.

#27 morthos

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 07:24 PM

Thanks Hip!

I am hesitant to ingest the full 500ml concentrated blackberry juice...I wonder how much sugar there is in there...it's also a large quantity of vitamin C too... I don't know if a blast of sugar & viatamin C is any risk...is there?

I can be skiptical, but usually I'm just cautious. :)

Anyone have any further info?

#28 Hippie3

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 07:28 PM

i doubt the sugar/vit c pose any risk.
but i'm not a doctor.
it's juice, you're supposed to be able to safely drink it...

#29 morthos

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 07:33 PM

Indeed. They would place warning labels otherwise, if the contents were a threat to a child...

#30 psilomed

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 07:42 PM

soon after this thread was posted i drank about 6 ounces of black currant nectar (labeled at 35% juice) 20 minutes prior to 4 gr dried tea. usual expected effects until about 45 minutes later. it hit me like a freight train and everything went white, closed eye visuals disappeared. i remember havng a terror type feeling but still in control, but a true level 5+. never had i personally experienced that "terror" feeling before. trip was longer than usual, about 5-6 hours. definite magnification of the effects but as to what multiplier i can't tell. maybe it was just me and others will find this as a plus. personally i don't plan to mix the currant juice again, i prefer just my tea.

#31 Hippie3

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 07:44 PM

what brand was yours ?

#32 morthos

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 07:46 PM

(edit:missed Psilomed's post, answered Q in error)

Was your juice concentrated?

Is there reason to believe the lemon/lime juice works?

#33 igetit

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 07:56 PM

while I still have not gotten ahold of the black currant juice, it is safe to say that the lemon/lime soak gives a bit of a kick.

I've eaten shrooms three times now with the soak, and every time is a bit more intense than usual. Even with a gram and a half of dried B+ and an empty stomach (6 hours) I was in a different world. I would like to try this method with the juice, but in my opinion the lemon/lime soak is a great way to eat mycology samples.

#34 morthos

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 08:00 PM

Igetit, exactly how did you prepare the dose? Did you powder the mush & soak it, then drink the mix as is?

Did the 'kick' seem like stronger mush, or dif? Any improvement in visuals?

#35 psilomed

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 08:00 PM

what brand was yours ?


it was paloola or loola (don't specifically recall but will check next time at grocer) anyway, it was a product of belgium and bought at a major grocer located in the juice section.

edit for right brand name: the brand was Looza

#36 wayback

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 09:17 PM

Looked around for Black Currant juices, and haven't found any yet, however, I intend to try the lemmon lime trip. In the old days, we use to drink several glasses of orange juice before dropping LSD, now I have a better prespective. Thanks.

#37 psilomed

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 06:37 AM

i would like to offer some clarity to my post on 2/18 if i may: i used the juice last december and i had been without eating for 8 hours. to the best of my memory it was labeled at 35% juice but another individual using the same brand "Looza" stated it was 30% and i'm sure that it was 30%. i tried this because i didn't believe it would affect the experience but it did. 4g dried cube tea usually puts me at a 3. the juice seemed to alter the experience and not sure if magnification is the right term for me thinking along the lines of going from nice visuals to super nice, if i'm explaining this clear enough. it hit hard and sudden at about 45 minutes in, i remember thinking "what the hell is this?" it was like i went beyond the point of being able to have closed eye visuals. i was tripped but not in the usual shroomy way. i'm having a little difficulty trying to articulate this clear enough, but for me and we're all different, it changed the effects of the cube experience i'm fond of with the visuals, etc., to one that was rather blank but still trippy, kinda like mind overload. I prefer just plain ole tea from now on. i hope i offered a little better insight but after reading this i'm not quite sure, lol.
peace to all

#38 TVCasualty

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 10:02 AM

I still have my bottle of Looza currant juice; haven't gotten around to trying it since there is a LOT of sugar in a whole bottle of juice. The sugar load might give you a buzz all by itself then drop you in a sugar crash, and I don't like crashing blood sugar levels...

The juice I am convinced is not placebo, but some report stomach problems with that much acidity. I had no real problems except for some gurgling that quit with a Tums I ate at +2 hrs (not counting my reported tooth sensitivity as I will never let it soak in my mouth again!).

I powdered under a gram and soaked it in a shot glass, using just enough juice to make a slurry (about half a shot glass full). I'd guess it's best used with a minimum of juice.

Like any unique method of ingestion, if you're merely exchanging nausea for a sour stomach it might not be a good trade, but if the acid doesn't hit your stomach bad it's worth a try as the effects are qualitatively different. Two people that have tried the juice I know both reported enjoying it very much and they had no stomach trouble at all. It might be possible to fast too long for this, leaving too much undiluted stomach acid laying around to compound the effect of the juice's acid.?

#39 Hippie3

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 10:37 AM

I am convinced is not placebo


if the person taking a placebo
could tell it was a placebo
there'd be no such thing.
the whole point is you cannot tell
by your subjective experience.

#40 TVCasualty

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 11:15 AM

I was convinced because similar reports were given to me by my friends. They too could be experiencing placebo, but the greater the sample the less the chance of it, and if subjective experience were never valid then all experience could be a placebo effect.

Even if an effect were entirely placebo, that would be fine. It opens up a discussion of the nature of truth and reality, and in that context I'm all about "pulling the wool over my own eyes." Better than letting someone else do it!

Go on, giver 'er a try!




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