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#61 maidenofiron

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 02:23 PM

Knowledge is power, not stuff.


this was very true untill humans learned how to domesticate plants and animals and took up agriculture. i really wish this was true though.

#62 TVCasualty

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 03:25 PM

there won't be any total decapitation of society like you envision,
there will be vestiges of local authority left
and people will not suddenly revert to hunter-gather living
as you envision either.
one must be more realistic in one's planning.


Not for another couple of decades, anyway. I'm not the only person envisioning this, and I certainly hope I am wrong. And, a hunter gatherer can always plant a garden, but gardeners don't necessarily know how to hunt and gather (without guns or pruning shears). I think it best to cover all bases.

And what are "..vestiges of local authority" other than people with guns? That is a "warlord" situation, or is likely to degenerate into one quickly once the stockpiled resources get thin. Look at Sierra Leone or Rwanda or Somalia or the Balkans for examples of "local authority." The only reason some of those places eventually calmed down was outside assistance that won't arrive in the scenario envisioned here.


this was very true untill humans learned how to domesticate plants and animals and took up agriculture. i really wish this was true though.


"Learning" how to do something is aquiring knowledge. A tractor is powerless unless driven by someone who knows how. Also consider sustainability; what appears to work in the short term may not ensure long term survival, as witnessed in topsoil being depleted until nearly (or totally) incapable of sustaining crops thanks to 'better living through chemistry' (among other things). So our so-called 'knowledge' may end in starvation.

We're hanging by many threads, and only one has to break for a domino effect leading to the kind of breakdown I describe. I'd prefer that knowledge and awareness be used to prevent this rather than deal with it. You can find truth in wilderness. It's a simple test: if what you believe is not true, you die (I am not talking about irrelevant superstitions). You might die anyway, but it's a matter of probability.


TVC

#63 maidenofiron

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 04:21 PM

We're hanging by many threads, and only one has to break for a domino effect leading to the kind of breakdown I describe.


what threads are we hanging from if i may ask, and how would one breaking lead to the breakdown of civilization or chaos or whatever.

I'd prefer that knowledge and awareness be used to prevent this rather than deal with it.


what sorts of knowledge are you talking about?


oh and why would you say that hunter/gatherers can plant a garden but gardeners cant hunt and gather? if you are going to generalize like that why not argue the opposite? after all humans were hunter/gatherers for hundreds of thousands of years untill they created agriculture, and once they did they were still able to hunt and gather.

#64 Hippie3

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 05:26 PM

the simple truth is that
in most areas of an urban nation like america
there is not enough wild game, berries, nuts, etc.
out there to feed more than a very few.

#65 TVCasualty

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 07:48 PM

oh and why would you say that hunter/gatherers can plant a garden but gardeners cant hunt and gather? if you are going to generalize like that why not argue the opposite? after all humans were hunter/gatherers for hundreds of thousands of years untill they created agriculture, and once they did they were still able to hunt and gather.


I didn't say that. Reread my post. It's not a matter of "can" or "can't" it's a matter of knowing how, and it's trickier than y'all think, as I have actually gone out in the wilderness and tried. Without manmade tools, which is the context of my comment. And it's related to Hippie3's response below:

the simple truth is that
in most areas of an urban nation like america
there is not enough wild game, berries, nuts, etc.
out there to feed more than a very few.


Not true in any sense. Like I said above, I've taken this beyond theorizing. With knowledge, you'll never starve, even in Central Park (Tom Brown did this for a time and wrote about it). There isn't enough wild food in a given area to feed millions, or even thousands, but in that scenario you won't be competing for it with very many as everyone else will be dying in their local Superdomes or having their gardens raided by people with more bullets than the gardener has or will be found crushed under the weight of their backpacks full of crap.

Going into wilderness with a pack is like diving with a SCUBA tank. Eventually, you have to return to land, or in this case a grocery store. Actually, I hope I don't convince many people to pursue this as there will be fewer people to divide up the nuts'n'berries with. Guess we'll just have to place our bets and see what happens. I have on my phone list about 30 people I practice skills with scattered around the country, and they have similar lists. All of them know how to live without manmade tools in wilderness (to varying degrees; that's why we keep practicing together). We know where we'll meet up if the phones aren't working. Who would you rather hit the hills with, some farmers or a bunch of latter-day Apaches? Don't say "The Cavalry," since they require resupplies that won't arrive and the Apaches kicked their ass (Geronimo surrendered under false pretenses; they couldn't get him any other way).

Hope you farmers have lots of true-breeding seeds stored up, know your local soil conditions and quirks, the changing weather patterns don't screw you up, no one else finds your farm, bugs don't eat the crop as you won't have chemo-pesticides, your livestock doesn't get sick, and you have figured out how to store the improbable harvest through the winter. Gonna grow cotton and weave cloth, too? Build a foundry to make tools with? Got enough shoes? Salt (if you live inland)? The devil's in the details.

The "threads" we hang from? Meditate on that yourself, it'll be more illuminating than some subjective list I could write that would just be a target of rhetorical potshots.

So, if society ain't gonna experience total meltdown, then what kind of 'survival situation' are we talking about here? One either too short to allow gardening (like a Katrina-type scenario, or being caught in a blizzard) OR one that lasts indefinitely, exhausting any stockpile of industrial goods eventually? Naked survival handles both; stockpiling neither.

non concedo,
TVC

#66 pskovinsky

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 09:40 PM

So what happens when you run into a sneaky mofo like yourself in the woods, except he's got a nice trusty, reliable beretta m92?

I'm rather amused by your assertations that someone with a pack is in worse shape then someone without a pack.
Given equal training, a pack carries things that are highly useful in the wild. Like a knife or two, a decent blanket, a water filter and enough cartriges to last for a long, long time, a bottle to store water in, a reliable gun (one that can go 16,000odd rounds between cleaning or maintence), decent number of cartriges for it (i'd use .22LR-HV personally, very lightweight, still has good penetration, so you can carry a hell of a lot of ammo without weighing yourself down), and so on.

Around my area, i would NOT want to be in an end-of-the-world situation like your describing *without* a gun.

A LOT of people are going to be heading into the woods, and a fairly large number already live in the woods. Guess what? They're all armed, very, very good at tracking and moving silently, and won't hesitate to shoot an intruder.
Admitedly, i live in the bush as it is, but it still applies.



BTW you just totally agreed with the second post of hip's you quoted.

#67 Hippie3

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 10:04 PM

hey if he wants to play rambo in the woods
that's far out.
to each
his own.
i think i'll do ok.
groups do better than individuals,
that why families and tribes are
basic human social constructs.
we who fortify and farm will be just fine.
i can more easily defend my home
than to haul my old hippie ass into
the backwoods.
besides
i'd rather die defending my homestead
than to live like a neanderthal,
eating fucking bugs, worms,
rootbark and moss.

#68 FLcubiefan

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Posted 08 February 2006 - 10:04 PM

There's usually no need for a survival kit if you have a cellphone.. survival could be your backup battery.

#69 Hippie3

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Posted 09 February 2006 - 08:43 AM

cellphones often go out in a crisis
as too many people overload the network
by all going on at once...

#70 shedthemonkey

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Posted 09 February 2006 - 08:47 PM

Ummm...no electricity, no cell towers after the battery backups (if installed) run out. A sattelite phone would be cool for this but the expence is outrageous! And good as the batteries are now..it is short term at best. Gasoline or Diesel might be rare, so generators and cars are limited. Maybe make friends with a HAM radio nutt...or become one yourself...they might be the only radio stations with power.

Self sufficiency sounds nice but farming is a LOT of FUCKING work for a lazy science nerd monkey like myself. Been there. Hated the T-shirts.

Of course if it's down to it or die...diggin in the dirt is character building. sigh. There IS a special smell of a newly tilled field of rich black earth. And the feel of that almost cold soil as it crumbles under bare feet.

Now that I have these madd mushroom skilz I would be a big benefit to any somewhat psychodellic survival compound. LOL...A monkey's gotta eat.

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#71 shedthemonkey

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Posted 09 February 2006 - 08:54 PM

You know you'll have dipped into it long before the emergency ever occurs and once the shit hits the fan, you'll discover that all's left is seeds and stems.



Seeds -n- Stems is such a lonely place
Seeds -n- Stems is a sudden frown on your face
Seeds -n- Stems, What the FUCK?
Seeds -n- Stems. Gotta call my Hook-up.


<monkey takes deep bow>
Thank you, Thank you...Please...Don't Applaud.
Just throw poo.

#72 TVCasualty

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 12:35 PM

I think there are two separate issues here concerning 'survival,' the transition stage and the full survival stage. I see three stages to future events; the first is the one we're currently in (decline and denial) and I see it lasting no more than 10-15 more years. This is the time to get ourselves in the best position possible for the next two.

The second stage will be a transition. This will resemble the scenario that Hippie3 and others predict, and living in a rural area with useful stuff around and a garden will certainly be better than what I see as Katrina-esque local breakdowns from various "natural" and manmade causes. Some places will continue to function as they do know while others will suffer some serious trouble, and it will be very difficult to move to the better spots at that point. There will be more Superdomes, and those who failed to make any preparations will be just as stuck as those in New Orleans were. Cities will still be centers of food distribution (since gardens, like wilderness, won't be enough to feed everybody there will still be dependence on industrial agriculture). You will be very glad for your stockpiles at that point. You will do better with your tribe around you, and now is the time to figure out who they are and get on the same page.

I focus more on the third stage. The second won't last forever, or even likely very long (few years/decade). That's when the stockpiles run out. I don't see the stockpiling approach as useless, rather I've been over-emphasizing full survival knowledge since it's value is generally underappreciated. It's importance will rise as time goes on, ultimately becoming essential. Also, until things actually begin to change (I would argue they already have), we won't exactly know where the safer places will be. This means we may have to move, and it seems unlikely we'll be able to bring our stuff with us. Sometimes we'll have to move quick, and may only have the clothes on our back. That's why I say that knowledge is the most important thing to stockpile; it may be the only thing you have some day. Your buddy across the state may have a nice farm, but getting there may turn into quite a journey at that point (assuming your farm was in the wrong spot).

As far as agreeing with the second post of Hippie3's I quoted, I see wilderness as being able to feed a few, and Hippie3 said ..."very few"; Seems like splitting hairs, but I see the difference as significant, depending on our definitions of how many a 'few' is.

So what happens when you run into a sneaky mofo
like yourself in the woods, except he's got a nice trusty, reliable
beretta m92?


Easy. I make it my own. Set a few man traps, entice you to investigate, pick up your gun from next to your body. You never saw me. I knew you were there by reading your concentric rings (how to tell when someone is moving in an area without seeing them; animals will give you away unless you move in harmony with nature's pace). Of course I'd only do that if I perceived you as a direct threat to me; I don't need your gun and would prefer to team up with rather than fight others (or I'd just take a detour around your area). Moving silently is not enough. Moving invisibly is also essential. Likewise knowing how to be undetectable to dogs. This is quite possible, and I have done it a few times in an admittedly non-combative environment, but that's the practice I argue is essential. I actually have practiced some tactical responses in a combative environment with some well-armed redneck poachers and ran them off with psych warfare. My rifle was just a heavy thing that slowed me down, but I had one at first. And relative to the number of people heading to the woods, very, very few are actually decent trackers. Most can follow deer blood trails, cut for sign, and the like, but deer don't work to cover their tracks, nor are many people adept at reading tracks. Those that are will hopefully be on 'our' side; the side not interested in rape and pillage. So tracking is not enough, and most do not know how to counter-track. I'm pushy about the full survival angle because I see it as priceless knowledge that can help all of us, since it's not a matter of 'whoever survives best wins.' Together we stand...

Bugs and worms and rootbark and moss are not on my plate, either, unless you're talking about Mimosa hostilis bark, or protein-rich grubs in stew. Wood conk mushrooms alone in stew can keep you going for weeks, and taste pretty good, better in a pine needle tea (more vitamin C than orange juice). Fat greenbrier roots cook up almost as decent as potatoes, and with some herbal knowledge you can spice up the flavor. Knowing what is safe to gather and eat is a different skill than gardening, and will be important for augmenting your food supply even with a garden.

It ain't about playing Rambo; that's how to die. The job of a scout in the old school sense is to protect one's tribe from enemies, find safe places, and fight only as last resort. Avoidance is the strategy for longevity. A full-survival adept scout or two in your tribe can be very useful at any stage.

#73 TVCasualty

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 01:11 PM

This is a useful "kit" to grab on the way out the door, the Tracker/Scout knife combo from TOPS knives. It was designed for a situation where all you can do is grab something and run; grab this. If you know how to use it, it can give you shelter, fire, water, and food.
http://store1.yimg.c...re_1880_4015971

#74 Hippie3

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 02:56 PM

i was an eagle scout-
does that count ?
;)

#75 Hippie3

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 02:59 PM

This is a useful "kit" to grab on the way out the door.
It was designed for a situation where all you can do is grab something and run;
grab this.
If you know how to use it, it can give you shelter, fire, water, and food.
Posted Image
;)

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#76 Guest_dial8_*

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 03:18 PM

heeheehee

#77 TVCasualty

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 04:27 PM

Depends on your scoutmaster...

#78 motograter

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 05:17 PM

Id rather have this than a knife....

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#79 mindovermycelia

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 08:06 PM

That's true. But even being an eagle scout the scoutmaster let slide on some things would still give you an advantage over someone who knows nothing - but time erases a lot of information from the mind when it isn't used daily.

I agree with TVC on the idea that knowledge is the best thing to have if you are forced into the wilderness with nothing - and anything is possible. My dad had a book when I was a kid that is out of print, even then it was like 50 years old, but the information in that book was thorough. It was written by some guy who lived for years in the wilderness with nothing but wits and knowledge and maybe a knife. I remember learning how to make a cup using bark from that book, of course I have forgotten now.

I can see how a pack full of useful items could be more harm than good if you're on the run or something, but I don't see how not having a knife could possibly be advantageous.

#80 TVCasualty

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 09:03 PM

Looks good. Thanks. It'd be great if you were carrying spare clips for the rifle, I could probably trade 'em for some moccasins. :pirate:




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