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Lets talk survival Pt. 2 (Im Back!!)


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#1 shroomatt

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 01:33 PM

hello, i have been doing more reading, thinking, and mushroom eating so it came to me that i should start this thread up again. I have gained alot of insight since my last thread, through you out there and many others at my home. Instead of rushing headlong into argument, i want to make all my strategies clear, and all my points slow going. I feel we should build off things we agree and move on from there.
1. Evolution
in a general discusion of evolution, the term "evolutionary stable/unstable strategy" might come up. this is where i would like to begin. As we know today, any living organism needs an evolutionary stable strategy to stay in existance. You could call this the "key" to eternity for that species. Allthough, that usually never happens because the conditions change before the species' strategy can change=extiction.
Many people would like to say that our strategy of living is stable or if it isnt, we will be able to change quickly enough right at the end to avert our destruction.
I would like to pass on a parable to you about this subject.
Our civilization builders were like inventors, they were testing this out as an experiment, imagine our civilization as a great big flying structure. they built it about 10000 years ago, and they took it to the highest place they could find and shoved it off. Now, since this was 10000 years ago they had no idea of the laws of aerodynamics, just as 1000 years ago no one knew the laws of thermodynamics. this doesn't mean they dont apply, of course they do, we just havent figured them out by this point and time. so our giant experiment is in a freefall, plumiting twoards its impending destruction, but since the place they brought it was so high, to them it looked as if the structure was working. infact it is still in freefall today and we still think it will work, we can see the ground drawing closer and closer but we are confident it will work, even though the laws of aerodynamics say against it.

This my friends is an example of an evolutionary unstable strategy. we have been going for 10000 years and our time looks to be about up.
(not to offer a solution) but look at ethnic tribalism as a strategy that is stable for now (we may well change the conditions that make it stable rendering them extinct) they have been practicing this strategy for 3 million years.

Evolution is a simple yet facinating tool, it picks out what works and carries it on, while what doesnt is discarded away. what i'm hoping to accomplish here is to pick out the peticularities that make us unstalbe and make them visible, i would also like to discuss other ventures beyond civilization, this is only the begining...

#2 Guest_dial8_*

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 04:45 PM

It's possible that no strategy is truly stable. In fact I think it is tha nature of species to go extinct and make room for new ones. This helps maintain diversity (unless of course to many species go extinct in a short period of time).
A group of organisms can be compared to a single entity. Nothing is eternal. I will not live for ever and the same end is in store for groups of like organisms.

I am very open to discussing alternative strategies but, bare in mind, these strategies only prolongue the inevitable, which is a good thing.

#3 shroomatt

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 10:48 PM

It's possible that no strategy is truly stable

this is very true, as i somewhat, stated above

Evolution is a simple yet facinating tool, it picks out what works and carries it on, while what doesnt is discarded away.

that if the conditions are met(under the presumption that the environment is always changing. Which, in reallity, it always is) a species can adapt to the change and either become a different species, or pursue a new strategy of living. this is mostly, what am trying to show here.

In fact I think it is tha nature of species to go extinct and make room for new ones.

i think this statement is incorrect, as many species may only evolve into another. Take for example the many linnieages of many different species you see today. or we may just adapt to the change in our lifestyles and ways of making a living. this has been done in the past, and our cultural lineage is only 10000 years old while our species' lineage is 600,000.

#4 Guest_dial8_*

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Posted 14 December 2005 - 11:03 AM

If they evolve into another species then the evolver goes extinct. This of course is not set in stone. Some groups of the same species may evovle while other groups do not (geographical isolation)

i think this statement is incorrect, as many species may only evolve into another.


This really is not the discussion though. Please share with us your thoughts on maintaining our species without "destroying" our niche or evolving into something else. I hope your idea is of the kind that does not require the death of millions of people to reach "equilibrium". If there is such a thing.

#5 shroomatt

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Posted 14 December 2005 - 02:16 PM

Well of course millions of people dying is not built into these ideas but as we are faced with many environmental and geological facts this could very likely happen.

one such environmental fact, is the "nature" of nature and the earth. our environment supports biodiversity, infact biodiversity is an underlying theme of our environment.
what our civilization is doing is convering the wolrds biomass into either human mass or food for humans which we still lump into the human biomass category. this elimination of diversity is leaving us vulnerable to
1. diseases can wipe out entire crops or livestock because of their close genetics.
2.climate change could also wipe out entire areas of crops because they do not have the built-in redundancy of nature
these things could contribute to many deaths in lower class countrys where they can not afford to import much food.

One major idea is to stop destroying diversity, and instead build in diversity to our agriculture.
ill post more on this later.

#6 shroomatt

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 07:30 PM

With our civilization's way of agriculture, there is usually only one crop to a field, and maybe only a handful of crops per area. take the midwest for example. (allthough it is mostly the same for the entire civilized world) If you were to take out wheat, corn, and soybeans from the midwest, you would be wiping out the vast majority of food grown.

This is very non-supportive of the natural tendency of diversity. nature has redundancy built in so if the climate changes or a disease hits, some species may not be able to adapt, but because of the great diversity, new relationships could be formed by new species and many species would adapt and/or evolve.

A solution to this agriculture problem is still not quite acceptable yet. there are biodiverse ways of farming and using natural landscapes, but the yeilds of such farming are far to small to support our population. Nevertheless, it still would not hurt to start doing it. We can support local communities with it. A farmer would not be able to make money from it, but in a small community, where all the members would give and get support, this would be possible.

#7 shedthemonkey

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 01:28 AM

Homo Sapiens Sapiens and Gyna Sapiens (as I like to call the feminine half of our population) are the first animal that has broad and effiecient means of changing the environment to suit our needs.

Never before (major assumption here) in our current knowledge has any other animal adaped such a powerful brain and opposable thumb and increasingly sophisticated technology. We bring the earth under submission. We bring each other under submission (class, race, sex, religious, political etc. discrimination).

We developed behaviors that are not based on the all encompassing NOW that we suppose all other plants/animals/beings exist under. We developed the ability to teach very complex social rules on the human tribes so that we would be extremly nimble in the adaptation game. We are generalists in what we eat and can survive near cataclysms and come back from genetic bottlenecks such as is proposed to have hapened maybe many times since we climbed out of the trees and stood up. Much of what we feel and do is hardwired into our DNA, but overlaying that is this desire to control EVERYTHING.

"What are we doing today, Brain?"
"The same thing we do EVERY day, Pinky. Try to take over the world!"
SNARK! :D

And our ability to remember past experiences and project possible outcomes into the future made us a higher dimentional being as we rarely live in the now (something the mushies allow for short visits) but are hanging out in the possible shadows of the past in the future.
I see hope for this species. We are tough to kill, as a species, and when we set our collective mind on a goal, it may as well be a given that we WILL get there. We have over 6 Billion brothers and sisters around us struggling for their piece of the pie. There will most certianly (IMHO) be a crash in population from war and disease to thin the herd, as happens when we become overballanced. The trick is to be smart enough to thrive after the Great Reset. All the petty political bickering and allout war based on greed and desire to ensure prosperity (usually at the expense of those of lower social standing) is being done on grande scale these days, but is much the same as it ever was.

Yes. I see Hope. :) We are the recurring Phoenix. Dicey business in the fiery death stuff, but I think our rebuilding will happen. And if not? None of you will be here to tell me what a doofus I was for predicting that we as a species will survive our planet, and possibly our sun! We will continue to change and evolve and continue to be the quick monkey who doesn't get eaten by the leopards.

I think I have to reject the idea of long term equalibrium or extinction being mutually exclusive. I think we are in a semi-stable state and those who specialize too much and can not deal with the changes around them are doomed to being pushed out and down and possibly out. But the mix is NEVER static. Evolution is an ACTION, a VERB. And so is Living and Survival. Even short term (1000 years?) has these multiple cycles of warm, wet, cold, dry in various parts of the globe, forcing some to die and some to change and some to thrive who were held down by the previous part of the cycle but now is THEIR time.

Now is OUR time. I hope we start realizing as a species that we would be so much better off to stop killing other speicies off and to try to keep most of the diversity of species that we have dominated into smaller and smaller ranges. If not...then we will just have to live with a less rich tapestry of life on our dear mother planet. Someone send a love note to the Lorax, if he will listen.

Sustainability is an illusion. We use up resources until forced to turn to other resources. We breed to capacity then over-capacity then the folderol hits the fulcrum (shit hits the fan).

Survival is a choice, mostly, these days. Do we choose the delightful yet painful life, or the quiet yet booring sleep of eternity? I at first thought this thread was going to be another start on "what to do to prepare for when all hell breaks out and the society goes all crazy for a while". That is valuable too...but this is fun. :)

BTW...don't take anything I just typed seriously. What do I know? I am just a tail-less nerd-monkey who thinks he is thinking. :D

"You think that is air you are breating? Intersting": Morpheus to Neo in The Matrix.

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#8 shroomatt

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 12:15 AM

you talk about alot of things that have influenced me shed, the lorax is a very good story and it was ahead of its time, i also might be just crazy but sounds like you have heard "the power of now". but i do see many of your points, but i still believe that the majority of us are on a path to our own destruction, but some are not. i believe that eventually a time will come to choose between our marvelous civilization we have, or survival.

#9 shedthemonkey

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 07:23 PM

I agree Shroomat. I don't know what our species will choose...but for now, I choose to get high often, love with all my heart, and spread random kindness for those I am around. Worrying about the crash ain't gonna keep it from happening. Preparing for the crash is smart and might help cushion the blow. Good luck to all for when the crazy time comes.

I am convinced that in the end, we strut on the stage, as the Bard said, with lots of noise and drama, but when we shuffle this mortal coil, we will look and see what the mushrooms have hinted at: It was all for shits 'n giggles and we is us is me is you is The Great I Am is Krishna is Serendip is Thor is Andromeda is Ra is Sol is fill-in-the-blank. I am you are we are all together. Goo Goo Gachuu. :The Walrus. :D




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