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Oven sterilization of whole grains log....


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#61 blackout

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 08:48 AM

The only way an oven can get the grains above 212F is to evaporate 100% of the moisture from them first, then the temperature can rise.

I am not certain of this (please do not take this the wrong way, I assumed the same and I am not sure either way, I am certainly not saying you are lying). I have gotten wheat grain to 145C+ in a microwave measured with a probe digital thermometer, there was still visible steam coming off them, maybe this was something else vapourising though. The grains themselves may be acting as pressure vessels, I am not sure, but I think that is the principle behind popcorn, they explode when the CO2 build up inside is enough (the CO2 forms while heating). To test further I could weigh again and again after they have passed 100C, but like I said it may be other compounds vapourising.

If you cook a chicken in the oven the fat is bubbling away but it is still moist and I would be certain water is still in it.

You'll have to rehydrate them somehow, but toasted cereal grains get soggy when wet.

I grew on heavily and lightly toasted grains and they worked well, the growlogs were lost here in the crash but are at the shroomery. You do have to rehydrate, with lashings of LC! resulting in extremely quick colonisation which also gives little room for contams to take hold.

As I have mentioned a few times I think weighing is essential to calculate the moisture loss, and know how much LC to add back.

I had an idea of selling dry sterile grain before. I was thinking of people getting sackfuls of grain exposed to radiation, it cannot be too expensive seeing how lettuce and other fruit & veg are done. Grain could be pc'd and then dried in an oven. I only thought of this as to stop the excessive price of postage of prepared grains.

Another VERY DANGEROUS method is that of water that can explode in the microwave. When the gas is boiled out of a cup of water the surface tension on the liquid is strong enough to act like a lid and the water goes well past 100C, it eventually overcomes the tension and "explodes", I have used this effect in the past when microwaving LCs, it is very easily done, I have had the door blow open on a microwave.
I was thinking this could be used with submerged grain but I do not think it will work since gases will always be released in the grains.

Glass jars do interest me, I am not certain but I think they are designed so the lids will let off excess pressure, some people mentioned this already. I had safety valves for homebrewing before which blew at I think 30psi. I know champange bottles can handle over 100psi. If you were to put a sealed bottle or jar in an oven at 121C it should be at 15psi and should be able to handle the pressure. Again this is very dangerous and should be left to the experts or nutcases like my bad self!

I have microwaved autoclave bags full of grain which expanded releasing gas out of the filter. I will try this again and try and measure the temperature which should show how much pressure is being built up.

I have always thought the definition/procedure for fractional steilization was a bit, dunno the word, maybe "exact". Seems it may be overkill and that the guy who did it may not have experimented, it worked first time so fuck it, don't fix what ain't broke!
I would like different experiments and have done some myself. e.g. soak grain in hot water and leave sit for 48hrs, then oven cook until dry, soak again for 48hrs, then simply steam it. I like the drying between times since it allows for people to be more flexible, if the only time you get to use your cooker is on a monday night (when the wife is at her class!) then you can soak grains on saturday and dry them out on the monday. Wait a week and soak next saturday to germinate the remaining endospores. It may take 3 times to be sure. Some may say this takes too long, but it is not actual manhours. Soak, strain, toss in the oven for an hour at 220C to have it bone dry.

#62 blackout

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 08:57 AM

Here is wheat dried out more than it was originally, LC added to rehydrate. It sucks it up very well. It was soaked for a day or so prior to the drying, this should allow endospores to germinate, then the high heat of 145C+ should easily kill off the endospores. To be sure I sometimes soak again like fractional sterilization, I cannot remember if I did that in this case, dont think I did. I think the soaking also opens up the cavities, it absorbed the added LC like a sponge.

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#63 blackout

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 09:01 AM

These are wheat grains that actually burned in the microwave and were smoking. I didnt have much hope for them. I have asked a few times what dry temp the grains should reach and for how long for all the endospores to be killed, still no answer.

They pinning in the jar with a little casing, I went on to spawn them to cow poo which is the last pic.

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#64 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 11:08 AM

Not to be nit-pickey, but there are numerous circumstances under which water can reach temperatures greater than 100C at 1 atmosphere of pressure. All you have to do is add impurities. This phenomena is called, as I'm sure your aware, boiling point elevation/freezing point depression. In a nutshell, salt water has a higher boiling point that plain water.

The superheating phenomena that can occur in a microwave (as noted by Blackout) is the source of numerous severe hand/face burns across America every year. Anyone who has ever watched a cup of hot water out of the microwave explode into a roiling mass of bubbles when their tea spoon hits it can easily contest to this. Superheating in the microwave can EASILY push the temperature of water above 100C and cause an explosive evolution of steam when disturbed.

And by the way, before somebody starts screaming about urban legends, do a little research. Superheating is most assuredly NOT an urban legend. That one ticks me off...
http://www.phys.unsw...perheating.html

Now, I'm not suggesting that either of these phenomena have any outstanding significance in the field of sterilizing grains. I'm just pointing out that Rodger's statement that "[t]he laws of physics show that water can not exist in a liquid state at a temperature above 100C without being subjected to pressure" is simply not correct in %100 of cases.

I totally understand (and agree with) your "make a square tire roll" statement. If you see someone headed towards an avoidable brick wall at 90mph and don't say something, you are kind of an ass. I wasn't trying to imply that you were "shooting him down." Your comments were, in fact, quite constructive in nature.

I've just got a major soft spot for the little guy home experimenter beating his head against the wall. 'Cause once in a great while...the wall gives.

Reverend - ya heard that playing the the background, did you? Did you get the mental picture of "gentlemen scientists" in powdered wigs stretching back into the past? I had intended that, too!

#65 Guest_Peter Cottontail_*

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 01:21 PM

True, but nobody is suggesting hydration of grains with salt or ethylene glycol. Plain water can not exist at a temperature above 100C at one atmosphere. Period.

If it will help your research, a chicken is fully cooked when the center reaches 170F. At that temperature there will still be moisture in the meat, therefore you will still see steam.

Best of luck on your experiments.
RR

#66 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 01:59 PM

As I mentioned in my post, it’s doubtful that boiling point elevation through selective dilution is going to be effective when sterilizing grain. That is not a de facto statement, however. The addition of lime would most assuredly elevate BP while not harming the mycelium. I feel quite certain there are other additives, besides salt and antifreeze, with similar properties of elevating BP without killing the myc or toxifying the end product.

You said: “Plain water can not exist at a temperature above 100C at one atmosphere. Period.”

That is simply not true. Please watch this MPEG of a superheated water "explosion:"

Attached File  superheating.mpeg   381.78KB   525 downloads

That happened because the water was a good bit hotter than 100C when he poured in the coffee.


Please see:

http://www.extension.umn.edu/foodsafety/components/columns/Mar10laj.htm
To quote:
Water does not always boil when it is heated above its normal boiling temperature of 100°C or 212°F.
Water can always evaporate into dry air, but it normally only does so at its surface. When water molecules leave the surface faster than they return, the quantity of liquid water gradually diminishes. That is ordinary evaporation. However, when water is heated to its boiling temperature, it can begin to evaporate not only from its surface, but also from within. If no bubbles are leaving the surface of the water as it is being heated to the boiling point, or above, steam bubbles may be forming inside the hot water. Water molecules then can evaporate into that steam bubble and make it grow larger and larger. When the water is disturbed in some way, it will boil violently. This may happen by inserting a fork or spoon into the water or striking the bottom of the container – and an explosion follows. When water is sufficiently superheated, all that is needed is just a single “seed” bubble to start an explosion and empty the container completely. This situation becomes even worse if the top surface of the water is “sealed” by a thin layer of oil or fat so that normal evaporation cannot occur.”
Please also see:
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem00/chem00636.htm
For some other videos of superheated water explosions, please see (you'll have to DL a DIVx player to see these):
http://apache.airnet...atervideos.html
Superheating and supercooling are absolutely proven physical phenomena that can be reproduced quite reliably in your kitchen with very simple equipment. All you need to demonstrate superheating is distilled water, a microwave and a pyrex measuring cup (and some heavily insulated gloves). All you need to demonstrate supercooling is distilled water, a stove and some table sugar.
Distilled water can most assuredly exist, in a liquid form, above 100C at 1 atmosphere.

#67 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 03:15 PM

Aligator mouth overloading jaybird ass...

That last bit should be about superheating and supersaturation. Supersaturation is what you can demonstrate in the kitchen with sugar and hot water. Supercooling actually requires some rather expensive equipment to demonstrate...

#68 mushit

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 05:23 PM

So what you are saying is the water will not evapourate out of the jars in the oven if heated to 250 - 300 deg F. There is no pool of water in the jars that can be superheated.

#69 Lazlo

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 05:47 PM

Wow! What have I missed here?


Thanks for the replies on this topic guys and gals. I'm glad to be getting some opinions on this with a group effort, whether positive or negative.


For the record, the moisture content of the grain after the oven run is great. The seed still splits easily with your finder nails and is nice and moist inside. That's the first priority in order for this project to make it. Next being the time and temperature needed to sterilize the grains properly. Moisture isn't a concern at all. Time and temps are....

#70 anticheffy

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 06:39 PM

Actualy that microwave fenomenon is microvave energy in the water that hasnt converted to heat, when the spoon hits the water it catalizes the energy to convert to heat and suddenly raises the temp of the water as a whole. the water isnt exactly superheated.
Like RR says and I also said earlier it this thread pure water boils at 100 deg C at sea level and decreases about 1 deg for every 3000 feet above sea level that you boil it at.
This is a well known fact that is published in amout a zillion different engineering books.
Engineers count on this fact to hold true so that many different things can be designed.
For 1 pound of ice at 0 deg f it takes 16btu's of heat to raise its temp to 32deg f.
It takes 144 btu's of heat to melt this ice completely into water but does not raise its temp. State change only.
It takes 180 btu's to raise the temp to 212deg f and start it boiling.
It takes 970 btu's to boil off all the water, but again does not rais its temperature, only changes its state.
After that it is all steam and steam temp will raise as more heat it added.
deffinition of Superheat =
Heat added to a substance in the vapor state that raises its temperature.
you can not superheat a saturated substance
Saturated = liquid and vapor existing in the same contained ie: microwave
These are hard rules of physics that absolutly do not alter without external variables changing.

#71 Guest_Peter Cottontail_*

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 07:14 PM

Distilled water can most assuredly exist, in a liquid form, above 100C at 1 atmosphere.


Prove it.
RR

#72 Guest_Peter Cottontail_*

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 07:21 PM

Moisture isn't a concern at all. Time and temps are....


Dude, you still don't understand. They're related. If your grains were still moist, you didn't heat them to 212F/100C. You may have pasteurized them, but they are not sterilized. Bacteria will still be there. If the center of your grains reach 212F in a jar placed in the oven, the grains will be bone dry. That is a fact of science as sure as wind blows from high pressure to low, and water runs downhill.
RR

#73 the_chosen_one

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 07:48 PM

Wow! What have I missed here?
Thanks for the replies on this topic guys and gals. I'm glad to be getting some opinions on this with a group effort, whether positive or negative.
For the record, the moisture content of the grain after the oven run is great. The seed still splits easily with your finder nails and is nice and moist inside. That's the first priority in order for this project to make it. Next being the time and temperature needed to sterilize the grains properly. Moisture isn't a concern at all. Time and temps are....


I hate to say I told ya so. But I will......ha:p

Good work Laz. I agree on the time and temps. I don't have much moisture issues with quarts. I say much.....a dry one should be counted on once in a while. The biggest problem, and it's really not that big is black rot.

#74 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 09:57 PM

Rodger, I have no desire to get into a pissing contest with you. I respect your work in this field and will undoubtedly have numerous questions I will need your help with, in the coming months, as I build up my newfound "myco muscles." This is NOT a personal thing.

It's just that I can get pointedly weird about physics, "constants" and certain Newtonian/Einsteinian "absolutes." Until we've got a TOE that works as well with sub atomic particles as it does with planets falling past an event horizion, I will continue to call these "facts" theories that don't always apply.

Humor me for thirty seconds and watch the video of the water explosion again. What you are seeing, when the water “pops,” is a few milliliters of water being converted near instantaneously to steam. That’s why the water seems to explode: a large volume of steam is being released very quickly.

The water has been heated to it’s boiling point, but has not released any energy by producing steam. The energy that should have produced steam has instead built up in the water as heat (thus raising the temperature above 100C). When the spoonful of coffee is dropped in, boiling that should have happened slowly over the course of a few minutes happens in a few milliseconds. All that heat energy contained in the water is released, dropping the water's ambient temperature to 100C and evolving the steam.

You have, perhaps, an alternative explanation? If so, I’m all ears and more than willing to admit that I’m wrong. I have only a very rough structural concept of the dynamics of nucleation.

Unless you've got an accurate high temperature thermometer (and you want to get together in person), I can not directly "prove" this to you. I can provide a number of links to physicists and universities describing the phenomena, however. Here are a few of them (I’m reprinting one from my post above, incidentally):

http://www.extension...ns/Mar10laj.htm
Quote: "Water does not always boil when it is heated above its normal boiling temperature of 100°C or 212°F."

http://www.phys.unsw...perheating.html
Quote: "At the surface between air and water, or between steam and water, water boils at 100 °C. Water boils at 100 °C if there is already a bubble of steam (or air) present. But in the absence of bubbles, water can be heated above 100 °C."

Here it is on a page for kids:
http://www.eia.doe.g...ml#Superheating
Quote: "In a microwave, it’s possible to heat water above the normal boiling point of 100 degrees Celsius."

Buckaroo punts the “burden of proof” back to Rodger.

Anticheffy, I found the following definitions of superheat/superheating on the web:

From Wikipedia:
Superheating: In physics, superheating (sometimes referred to as boiling retardation, boiling delay, or defervescence) is the phenomenon in which a liquid is heated to a temperature higher than its standard boiling point, without actually boiling. This can be caused by rapidly heating a homogeneous substance while leaving it undisturbed (so as to avoid the introduction of air bubbles at nucleation sites).

From Dictionary.com:
Superheating:
1. To heat excessively; overheat.
2. To heat (steam or other vapor not in contact with its own liquid) beyond its saturation point at a given pressure.
3. To heat (a liquid) above its boiling point without causing vaporization.

From Encarta:
Superheat:
1. heat liquid without vaporization: to heat a liquid above its pressure-related boiling point without causing it to vaporize

From the Oxford dictionary on-line:
1 heat (a liquid) under pressure above its boiling point without vaporization. 2 heat (steam or other vapour) above the temperature of the liquid from which it was formed.

Anticheffy, please note that another “hard rule of physics” is that water will crystallize and solidify at 0C. This is also not true in 100% of cases. If you cool water quickly enough, it will form a very neat substance called amorphous ice/glassy water. It’s neat because it contains no crystalline lattice at all. Photos of it look like mercury or some other liquid metal. Cooling gradually in a VERY physically stable environment, you can get water below 0C without solidifying (sometimes – superheating water is much easier/more reliable than supercooling it).

There are really not very many “rules” in physics which apply 100% to every possible condition. Thermodynamics, like Organic Chemistry and many other “hard sciences,” is as much about the exceptions as it is about the rules.

You can superheat ANY solid/liquid by heating it under pressure. You can superheat any gas by simply adding heat to it. Your PC is superheating the water within every time you use it. This is why the inside of the PC can reach 121C. 15 psi of pressure allows the water/steam inside to rise to a temperature well above 100C. Without pressure, the PC would stop heating sharply at 100C until all the water inside had converted to steam. Without pressure, the PC can only go above 100C after every drop of liquid water is converted.

This is the point Rodger is making when he reminds Lazlo that if the grain was still damp, it couldn’t have gotten above 100C. Until all the water is driven off, all heat added to the grain will go to convert the water to steam. No matter how much heat you add, the grain cannot be heated above 100C until all liquid water is gone (unless you add pressure).

Mushit: Superheating has absolutely no useful relation to sterilizing grain, except in the PC. Even one kernel of grain in the water would provide nucleation sites and prevent superheating. You could, I suppose, superheat a large volume of water and then dump the grain in, but that would be HIDEOUSLY dangerous. Just imagine the "coffee explosion" from above in a five gallon bucket...

#75 Guest_Peter Cottontail_*

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 10:45 PM

You are correct. The microwave thing is an exception. That is not however, as you noted what is happening in the jars of grain.
RR

#76 Lazlo

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Posted 14 January 2006 - 12:05 AM

Good grief guys! I most certainly understand. lol! The foil is preventing too much of a moisture loss and the times and temperatures are another story for now. This is a log and not to be worried about failures for now. I indeed understand. The log will go on until the technique is sound.

Please note: I have several sterilizers. I can sterilize a zillion qts. a day if needed. This newly become headache is for people that can't afford a pressure cooker or other wise don't have the means to purchase one. I think there's potential here or I wouldn't waste my time, money, and patience. I'm certainly not doing this for my good health....

#77 Guest_Peter Cottontail_*

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Posted 14 January 2006 - 12:15 AM

:bow:

#78 nepenthes_ak

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Posted 14 January 2006 - 12:33 AM

Not to be a pest but what did you figure out, im lost in all that technical stuff, are you able to use an oven? or microwave, or should i just invest in a pressure cooker, that i dont really want to invest in when i have other things that theirs a chance of using...

cheers and thanks

#79 mushit

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Posted 14 January 2006 - 12:46 AM

Still under construction. Hee Hee

#80 Lazlo

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Posted 14 January 2006 - 02:40 AM

Not to be a pest but what did you figure out, im lost in all that technical stuff, are you able to use an oven? or microwave, or should i just invest in a pressure cooker, that i dont really want to invest in when i have other things that theirs a chance of using...

cheers and thanks


You're not being a pest. So far not much has been straightened out, YET! I think this run is looking good but, lets see proof first. If you can afford a pc then get one for whole grains.




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