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Somewhat strange looking Panaeolus Cambodgiensis mycelium - mold!?


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#41 Om shanti

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 11:02 AM

Thanks for the nice words and help on LC and the FC setup!! I will try that LC recipe without the agar agar already tonight. All the credit for this grow's success goes to the agaricus compost! But I will happily harvest the fruits in its place. :-)

For FC, I actually want to build something permanent, of about the same internal dimensions as this one (or perhaps just slightly larger). But I want to put it inside some furniture, like a drawer or small cupboard. This should help with insulation. And also reduce the noise of the fish tank air pump. But I think that the polystyrene might be a very good idea for lining the walls inside.

Right now I do have a towel underneath the "tit" inside the carboardbox, forgot to mention that. In the night I close the box and put another cardboardbox on top, and temperatures do rise a degree or so during the night even though ambient temperatures are of course lower. Anyway, I don't want to do much more with this cardboard thing. People are throwing away lots of furniture constantly so I'm just watching the classifieds for a good offer of something that looks like it could hold a small fc, and then I will start - After praying to the Gods for no more design failures. ;-) Tomorrow and the days after temperatures are forecast to plunge from 25C to 15C or even less in the daytime, so I'm happy this first flush will be more or less done by then.

#42 nyi

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 11:14 AM

Spores are spreading in one of the small trays, so I will give it until tonight or tomorrow morning at the latest to get some prints. As far as I understood Nyi the window for printing is short before the mushrooms start to decompose.

On day 3 after pins, they start dropping spores and they're heavy spore depositors! I print for 24 hours and dry them for another 24 hours, but that's irrelevant. The point is, that I saw how the fruit looked at day 5 after pins, when left in the tray (dying and bluing) and how they looked when I harvested them at day 3 and printed them another 2 days. They lost much water, but they didn't bruised much, they were still looking healthy.

Just harvest them before day at day 4 latest and print them until day 5, wehn they loose almost all spores (and the gill will be light grey, not dark).

Bluehelix is a true master of Pans, I sat glued to the screen through all his growlogs! :bow: For the LC he's actually using dextrose/light malt extract in the same proportions that I tried twice without luck. (And I presume its the same standard ratio Kanituk tried also?!) So I wonder if this is really a good recipe or alternatively, it's just that Bluehelix can make anything grow! ;-)

I assume, that the malt extract is OK. It's probably contamination. Maybe you have a print with not-clean sectors. That happened to me :) Or you have an uninvited guest in your lab. Do more small LC jars at once and sterilize 2-3 times 24 hours apart... this will surely kill everything (and maybe something more). Just give it a try and if you have the tools, make a spore syringe and injection port to your jar.

One tray failed as you can see. I suspect one or more causes 1) lots of overlay, 2) when I first put the trays in the FC I had put a lot of tablesalt in the jar with water for airbubbling. The jar was too full resulting in some of the very salty water dripping mostly on this tray, however only on about 1/5 of it. After I realized how salty the moisture was everywhere I changed the water and didn't add salt this time. Maybe it's just 3) bad luck.

Salt is OK in my opinion (at least if in lower concentrations then 4%... just assumption)... If you did multispore and/or if you let the substrate colonize in bag and then crumbled them into the trays... you have another possible reasons.

I would say, that the next flush will be much better in that tray. I wish you good luck... you're surely in for a great second flush! (don't forget to report on the yield and potency... they can really kick you into head and jump on your brain like little children in kindergarten).

#43 nyi

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 11:18 AM

Oh... you'll surely get temps at least 1-2C higher then ambient temps... The forecast say that next few day will be... Lots of Pans! :D

#44 Om shanti

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 02:14 PM

I assume, that the malt extract is OK. It's probably contamination. Maybe you have a print with not-clean sectors. That happened to me :) Or you have an uninvited guest in your lab. Do more small LC jars at once and sterilize 2-3 times 24 hours apart... this will surely kill everything (and maybe something more). Just give it a try and if you have the tools, make a spore syringe and injection port to your jar.

There was absolutely no germination at all in the dextrose/malt extract LC. I would presume if there was something bad in the print or the house there would have been something happening!?

Salt is OK in my opinion (at least if in lower concentrations then 4%... just assumption)... If you did multispore and/or if you let the substrate colonize in bag and then crumbled them into the trays... you have another possible reasons.

I'm not sure what concentration I used, but the water was more than saturated. When I put a finger on the side of the 'FC' and tasted it, it was like the Mediterranean = very salty sea water. So I thought that this salty condensation wouldn't be good for the pins.. but maybe you're right.

I would say, that the next flush will be much better in that tray. I wish you good luck... you're surely in for a great second flush!

I read on a thread on Pans by Eatyualive (I believe) that it might be a good idea to try to scratch the overlay with a sterilized fork to promote pinning (I'll try to find that thread again to doublecheck this was the advice). So I had actually thought about doing that.. what's your opinion on that?

However, unlike at your place, temperatures ARE going down here. :horse: For the next 5 days maximum daytime temperature will be 15 degrees C. So there is time to think about what to do for the next flush.

they can really kick you into head and jump on your brain like little children in kindergarten

Haha, that sounds hilarious!! Though children can be mean bastards from time to time, though innocent. I'll see in a day or two. :-)

#45 nyi

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 02:33 PM

I read on a thread on Pans by Eatyualive (I believe) that it might be a good idea to try to scratch the overlay with a sterilized fork to promote pinning (I'll try to find that thread again to doublecheck this was the advice). So I had actually thought about doing that.. what's your opinion on that?

Pans are very vulnerable to mechanical damage. The hyphae will, or will not rebind and regenerate after scratching. I think I didn't posted that picture, but I saw a pin through jar wall. It formed under the overlay and made his path up to the surface, through the overlay.

Now I tried to aPply a 2mm layer of fresh casing over the overlay. But Pans chew on the substrate really fast and hard... I'm not sure if they would want to colonize that low nutritious layer.

#46 spacecake

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 02:42 PM


Now I tried to aPply a 2mm layer of fresh casing over the overlay. But Pans chew on the substrate really fast and hard... I'm not sure if they would want to colonize that low nutritious layer.


In a last experiment I tried,adding a second casing layer didn't help against overlay.
Didn't gave me a better pinset.
But I still like to see of it works for you or not.
Please keep us updated on this experiment, Nyi...

#47 nyi

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 03:14 PM

I don't want to promise anything, but I'll try.

I started another experiment. A small tray which didn't colonized the casing (with too much limestone) was scraped with clean fork till colonized manure was hurt here and there. New very thin layer of sterilized manure was placed on top of the colonized substrate, covered with perforated tinfoil and placed into incubator at ~28C (but I will raise it to 30C, because I moved subaeruginosa to room temp for colonization... maybe I'll build another 25C incubator for it... sometimes.

The spent tray after 3 flushes was scraped off casing with a clean fork. The manure was divided into a few smaller parts, whit were scraped till living mycelium was seen. On the places, were mycelium is visible, very thin layer of sterilized manure was placed. The tray was covered with perforated tinfoil and placed into the incubator.

That mycelium in jar really don't want to eat new casing...never mind... after 3 days it goes back to the FC, no excuses...

#48 Om shanti

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 07:17 AM

I will let the overlay tray stay unscratched, and we will see what happens. :-)

----------
I don't know how this is comparable to your experiment Spacecake and Nyi, but:

Because of my FC troubles I decided to dunk the fastest colonized tray I had, because it had been sitting fully colonized for almost a week in low temperatures with nothing happening. It's this one, showed before:
http://mycotopia.net...-thincasing.jpg
It had only very little casing originally - max 0,5 cm, barely covered really. So after dunking for 12 hours I gave it approximately 1cm casing layer on top. However it didn't penetrate this at all. I have now scraped off most of the top casing layer, but not really any pins yet except in the four corners. Pinning occurred only in the corners where the post-dunking casing layer was very thin. (as in photo 2, 3) (Before reading about possible hazards of aluminium tray I had moved the tray into an aluminium tray that was a bit too small, resulting in some small 'hills' developing in the corners, which got less new casing on top.) But it has to be said this tray is not in the same FC as the other trays, but in a tub on top of a smaller fish tank heater, so temperatures have been only 23-24C or so. That might be as big a factor as the too thick casing.

By the way in all other cases I have applied the casing layer right when I spawned cakes to the bulk substrate, and done nothing after that.

----------

And lastly the last photos I will bother you all with of the larger aluminium tray that I'm about to start printing from now. So thanks everyone for help and cheers!

Attached Thumbnails

  • largertrayharvest1.JPG
  • largertrayharvest2.JPG
  • dunked-recased1.JPG
  • dunked-recased2.JPG

Edited by Om shanti, 03 June 2009 - 07:30 AM.
spelling+confusion

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#49 nyi

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 09:07 AM

These are crazy flushes... I have to try peat next time!

#50 spacecake

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 11:16 AM

Well,what I noticed over the time I spend on Pans...,is that they don't like thick casing layers,they want a thinner layer then 1 cm.
They also don't want to be messed around to much,make your substrate ..case and leave it alone.
Don't add another casing layer,even after a first flush..it just doesn't work well imo.
I have experimented with dunks,and so far it worked everytime.
I mostly wait,and if I see a bad pinset with alot of aborts I dunk,but I have also dunked right from the beginning,with same results.
But don't add another casing layer after a dunk,if you do..,then I suggest to only sprinkle some wet vermiculiet or something like that on top of the casing.

You'll get the best flushes if you got everything right from the start.

But keep on experimenting,because we all have still plenty to learn from those silly pans.

#51 Om shanti

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 11:40 AM

Spacecake, there was a question yesterday, where Feralronin asked about dunking for Pans - whether the casing should be scraped off before dunking. He received the answer that it should be scraped off and a new one applied after:
http://mycotopia.net...an-dunking.html

You don't scrape off/reapply casing as far as I understand? (Whether you reply here or in the other thread is fine for me.) Do you think like Nyi that Pan mycelium is too fragile for that?

#52 Dr.Hallucination

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 11:41 AM

Very nice Om shanti:eusa_clap
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#53 eatyualive

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 02:26 PM

for pans ive always done about 1/8th of an inch casing for 2nd flush and above. usually case directly over the broken stems. never had any problems. they usually tear right through the casing. oh yeah btw. very nice job!

#54 spacecake

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 03:10 PM

Spacecake, there was a question yesterday, where Feralronin asked about dunking for Pans - whether the casing should be scraped off before dunking. He received the answer that it should be scraped off and a new one applied after:
http://mycotopia.net...an-dunking.html

You don't scrape off/reapply casing as far as I understand? (Whether you reply here or in the other thread is fine for me.) Do you think like Nyi that Pan mycelium is too fragile for that?


Yep,the casing layer is already a part of the whole casing itself,after the first flush.
Hard to scrape off,..wouldn't bother myself..,I just dunk and put it right back in the terrarium.

#55 Om shanti

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 06:38 PM

Thanks, all!! ;-)

Yesterday I scraped the casing off the first tray I harvested. So that one will have to get a light new casing layer. But for the last two trays I'll follow your all's advice, Eatyualive, Spacecake and Nyi: not scrape off anything and only very lightly recase where needed..

I definitely harvested the last ones too late... spores are everywhere!! It's true they are heavy and rapid spore depositors.

#56 Om shanti

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 08:37 AM

I'm referring to trays by pictures shown here before for reference even though I know most of you will have no idea which trays I'm talking about without going back to read everything.. no need for that, it isn't that interesting. But from now on they'll get a label A,B,C..

It's only a 10 pack Camels for size comparison, by the way!

  • A - (pure compost) - First picture shows the first flush of the tray with too heavy casing, where there was only pinning in the corners shown in the last post with pictures.. would have liked to have seen this with the corner pinset distributed evenly.
For the next pictures outside temperatures were a good 5-10 degrees lower in the past 5 days and that really shows (but there are other factors as well).
  • B- (compost+coir) - Second pictures shows the second flush of the 'larger aluminium tray' now cut in half and transferred to a plastic tray because the aluminium tray was seriously corroded and I was worried about eating Metal Shrooms :-) (http://mycotopia.net...html#post718309). I didn't do anything to this. No casing, no scraping, just a dunk.

  • C- (compost+coir) Third picture shows second flush of the plastic tray that did well in first flush.. this one I scraped off the casing pretty roughly, dunked and gave a thin verm casing.. it didn't seem to like some of what I did.

  • D - (compost+coir). Fourth picture shows the tray that was an almost total failure in first flush. I didn't do anything to this except dunk. It is doing slightly better, but there a number of aborts.

  • E - (pure compost) Fifth picture shows the first flush of the first tray of all to actually colonize.. but because of delays it got an extra casing (it made sense at the time), which it didn't colonize very fast, and all of a sudden there wasn't room in the FC, so this one sat in a sort of cardboard-monotub with some polyfill FAE and nothing else in the attic with very widely varying temperatures, from 25 C a few hours of the day to below 10 in the night.. I went to check on it and saw a lot of shrooms, and then I moved it to the proper FC. Fruits are quite small, but some are fat.
I've been wondering about how simply using a neglect-tek monotub all the way through would turn out. The Pan. tropicalis grower on youtube, "Shroomcity" claims panaeolus requires neither much FAE or humidity!! http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Zz13uiDOnuc . But then again he's using a very out of the ordinary tek of wbs cakes with built-in peat casing.

BTW, I didn't get going with any LC experiments. I will wait until I actually require one because I simply don't have room for more stuff in the FC/incubator.

Attached Thumbnails

  • cold pinned.JPG
  • failed-overlay in first flush-second slightly better.JPG
  • scraped off verm recased.JPG
  • larger aluminium tray-transferred half to plastic tray.JPG
  • dunked-recased-fruiting-in-the-corners.JPG


#57 Om shanti

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 10:34 AM

I just went to the attic and saw the monotub and saw a few shrooms had appeared in the one tray - now called F (pure compost) - which was there at pretty low temperatures, no fanning, no perlite etc, and no misting except two good sprays when I put them up there.

With a little luck temperatures will rise here so there's a chance to see how it would work then. As I think I mentioned before there is no heating in the attic, and no insulation to speak of so temperatures are only a couple of degrees higher than outside. But if the sun starts baking on the roof it turns into a greenhouse.

Attached Thumbnails

  • lonelyshroomsinmonotub.JPG
  • cardboardmonotubattic.JPG
  • trayinmonotub.JPG

Edited by Om shanti, 07 June 2009 - 10:46 AM.
spelling + factual correction


#58 Om shanti

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 08:42 AM

I had two cakes stored in the fridge as insurance against catastrophic mold attacks. Now I have no need for those cakes, and not really for more mushrooms for the next few months + little room in my fridge, so I decided to try a little experiment. I crumbled each cake on top of a casinglayer mix, and put 1 cm casing on top. And the casing is sterilized verm, peat and crushed egg shells. So no compost in this one..

the probability of any shrooms should be pretty low... still, worth a try.

Attached Thumbnails

  • cakecased1.JPG
  • cakecased2.JPG


#59 Guest_Mr. Mongo_*

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 01:30 PM

it looks very good, nice work ! :bow:
there is many different temperatures for pans at your attic (10-25ºC) .. it's a good experiment :headbang:

best regards ;)

#60 Om shanti

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 01:53 PM

there is many different temperatures for pans at your attic (10-25ºC) .. it's a good experiment :headbang:

Thanks Kanituk. Unfortunately temperatures are forecasted to not get much over 15 degrees C for the next week, so not much can happen. But if the trays survive to the next heat wave, then it will be interesting to see how it goes. There is so dirty in that attic.. I think there are ghosts of moldspores from all the 80 years since the house was built, just waiting for some sucker to try growing mushrooms up there and make a small mistake that will open up the gateway to the moldy dimension. :-)




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