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Possible phlebitis from psilocybin and analogues thereof.


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#1 homobrassinolide

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 01:04 AM

It seems damn near every time I have ever used the aformentioned dopaminergics that I get vein pain, primarily in the legs. Anyone experience this or have a treatment solution? I've tried some aspirin to see if this is some sort of thrombosis but I don't really have any data to make a correlation.

#2 lysergic

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 02:05 AM

Psilocybin & related tryptamines are serotonergic more than anything else.

When released into the bloodstream, serotonin causes vasoconstriction.
Serotonin was first discovered in blood serum upon observation of this effect.
Vasoconstriction is the phenomena from which serotonin derives its name:
"Sero" for serum, "Tonin" for toning of blood vessels.

This effect is also common with drugs like LSD, LSA, Psilocybin, and various stimulants.


One might remedy this with a drug that induces vasodilation.
Some vasodilators include THC, Ethanol, and Theobromine (found in chocolate)
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#3 homobrassinolide

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 02:24 AM

Psilocybin & related tryptamines are serotonergic more than anything else.

So I'm taking an SSRI (sertraline) and here I've been risking death by serotonin all this time? Fuck...

Edited by homobrassinolide, 31 July 2009 - 02:25 AM.
quote


#4 lysergic

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 02:38 AM

So I'm taking an SSRI (sertraline) and here I've been risking death by serotonin all this time? Fuck...



You would have more to worry about if you were taking prescription MAOIs.

As far as I know, the only ill effect you will get from combining SSRIs with serotonergic hallucinogens
is a decrease in activity/potency of the hallucinogens.

This is most likely due to down-regulation of your serotonin receptors
caused by a (relative) "overabundance" of serotonin in the synapse (a result of the SSRIs).


One of our other resident pharmacology aficionados will probably be able to weigh in more on this topic :)

#5 Frequency

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 03:36 AM

As far as I know, the only ill effect you will get from combining SSRIs with serotonergic hallucinogens
is a decrease in activity/potency of the hallucinogens.

This is most likely due to down-regulation of your serotonin receptors
caused by a (relative) "overabundance" of serotonin in the synapse (a result of the SSRIs).


Indeed, perhaps over a long time of SSRI exposure, but it is the occupation of the reuptake transporters and receptors that is responsible for diminishing the action of most serotonergic psychedelics. Take fluoxetine for instance. It has a higher affinity for the SRT's (serotonin reuptake transporters) and serotonergic receptors than both serotonin and other tryptamine/phenethyalmine alkaloids. Therefore if one were to take a dose of fluoxetine prior to a psychedelic substance they would have little effect because the fluoxetine was in the way. It's already chilling in the receptors effectively blocking any other chemicals with similar affinity.

The long-term use of said SSRI's will, as Lysergic pointed out, eventually lead to down-regulation of the serotonergic system effectively damanging it temporarily up until years after cessastion. As Lys also pointed out, it's the MAOI's you'd have to worry about. If you use substances that would normally be broken down in a timely mannor by your own endogenous monoamine oxidase enzymes while using an MAO inhibitor than you're risking depleting your natural serotonin supply temporarily (not damaging per se) which leaves dopamine to freely bind to your serotonergic receptors. In the absence of 5HT (serotonin) all of the excess DA (dopamine, which has a higher affinity for the serotonergic receptors than serotonin or fluoxetine) gets eventually reuptaken by the SRT's and oxidized into Hydrogen Peroxide. Not the best substance to occupy your brain with. This only happens when serotonin is depleted from the synapse. It normally doesn't happen but when you inhibit your MAO long enough, you'll run out of serotonin and that will leave your DA freely available to bind, be reuptaken, and then broken down into H2O2. That H2O2 accelerates the natural oxidation your brain cells go through every day to the point of degradation, damage, and disability.

That's the real danger.
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#6 homobrassinolide

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 03:51 AM

:bow:

#7 Om shanti

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 04:32 AM

I would assume that if one had high blood pressure, there would be a higher probability of suffering the vasoconstriction side effects. Could any of the pharmacists confirm or reject that?

#8 Hippie3

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 09:12 AM

One might remedy this with a drug that induces vasodilation.
Some vasodilators include THC , Ethanol, and Theobromine (found in chocolate) ___


so, doctor, your prescription is for me
to have a drink, smoke a doob and scarf chocolate ?
that i can do,,,
:lol:

#9 lysergic

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 09:30 AM

Indeed, perhaps over a long time of SSRI exposure, but it is the occupation of the reuptake transporters and receptors that is responsible for diminishing the action of most serotonergic psychedelics. Take fluoxetine for instance. It has a higher affinity for the SRT's (serotonin reuptake transporters) and serotonergic receptors than both serotonin and other tryptamine/phenethyalmine alkaloids. Therefore if one were to take a dose of fluoxetine prior to a psychedelic substance they would have little effect because the fluoxetine was in the way. It's already chilling in the receptors effectively blocking any other chemicals with similar affinity.

The long-term use of said SSRI's will, as Lysergic pointed out, eventually lead to down-regulation of the serotonergic system effectively damanging it temporarily up until years after cessastion. As Lys also pointed out, it's the MAOI's you'd have to worry about. If you use substances that would normally be broken down in a timely mannor by your own endogenous monoamine oxidase enzymes while using an MAO inhibitor than you're risking depleting your natural serotonin supply temporarily (not damaging per se) which leaves dopamine to freely bind to your serotonergic receptors. In the absence of 5HT (serotonin) all of the excess DA (dopamine, which has a higher affinity for the serotonergic receptors than serotonin or fluoxetine) gets eventually reuptaken by the SRT's and oxidized into Hydrogen Peroxide. Not the best substance to occupy your brain with. This only happens when serotonin is depleted from the synapse. It normally doesn't happen but when you inhibit your MAO long enough, you'll run out of serotonin and that will leave your DA freely available to bind, be reuptaken, and then broken down into H2O2. That H2O2 accelerates the natural oxidation your brain cells go through every day to the point of degradation, damage, and disability.

That's the real danger.


:bow:
Thanks dude :)

so, doctor, your prescription is for me
to have a drink, smoke a doob and scarf chocolate ?
that i can do,,,
:lol:


That would be one bourbon, one scotch, and one beer
In addition to smoking two joints before you smoke two joints.

And don't forget to call me in the morning! :rasta:
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#10 homobrassinolide

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 10:29 AM

:eusa_clap LOL.

#11 Beast

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 12:14 PM

Tobacco is also a strong vasoconstrictor, fyi
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#12 mycowarrier

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 12:34 PM

Vasoconstrictors are definitely not good for people with Atrial fibrillation and high blood pressure. [I have both] My tripping is limited to one small cubie and i use my mind to potentiate the experience and thats only once in a blue moon when Im feeling strong enough physically and mentally.

#13 Om shanti

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 02:18 PM

Vasoconstrictors are definitely not good for people with Atrial fibrillation and high blood pressure. [I have both] My tripping is limited to one small cubie and i use my mind to potentiate the experience and thats only once in a blue moon when Im feeling strong enough physically and mentally.

I have slightly high blood pressure myself.. not enough to warrant medication but high enough for me to have seriously revised my diet, including practically quitting sodium chloride, which I used to eat with practically everything in enormous proportions.

WHile I don't know if vasoconstriction is less in Pans, most people seem to agree the 'body load' of this is much lighter than cubes. It's certainly also my experience. I would highly recommend you, mycowarrior and homobrassinolide, to try them and see if they aren't better for you too.

There is definitely difference between the vasoconstrictive effects of different psychedelics - LSA for instance, is known to a very high percentage of its users pains in the legs... I've also noticed that mescaline raises blood pressure on a completely different scale than psilocybin does.
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#14 Frequency

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 02:59 PM

There is definitely difference between the vasoconstrictive effects of different psychedelics - LSA for instance, is known to a very high percentage of its users pains in the legs... I've also noticed that mescaline raises blood pressure on a completely different scale than psilocybin does.


Very good info here. Thanks for sharing. Lysergamides are notorious for causing joint/muscle pain in moderate to high doses.
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#15 huntsman

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 03:09 PM

:eusa_clap
Great post
Very informative.
Thanks to all the contributors
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#16 homobrassinolide

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 02:58 PM

Thanks everyone. Thanks a bunch. I covered my cubes in chocolate and scarffed down the whole lot. Had my bottle of jack on hand too. Not too mention the bong as well. No vein pain. :bow:

#17 bozefonce

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 01:15 AM

Ginkgo Biloba is a vasodilator and blood thinner. Note that TVCasualty's honey tek involves the use of g.b. as a potentiating ingredient. This leads me to believe that it's also a good combination for those who have issues with hypertension (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16451753).

One question I have is with respect to SSRIs, as Wikipedia cites some interaction problems with ginkgo:
Side effects

Ginkgo may have undesirable effects, especially for individuals with blood circulation disorders and those taking anticoagulants such as ibuprofen, aspirin, or warfarin, although recent studies have found that ginkgo has little or no effect on the anticoagulant properties or pharmacodynamics of warfarin.[27][28] Ginkgo should also not be used by people who are taking certain types of antidepressants (monoamine oxidase inhibitors and selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors[29][30]) or by pregnant women, without first consulting a doctor.
Ginkgo side effects and cautions include: possible increased risk of bleeding, gastrointestinal discomfort, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, headaches, dizziness, heart palpitations, and restlessness. [30][31] If any side effects are experienced, consumption should be stopped immediately.


I am not taking SSRIs at present, but I see that there are some in this forum who do, so my question goes out on their behalf. Any opinions?

#18 Jose_sixpac

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:00 AM

Good read,

x-cept, my little mind is kindatrippin on this info-thread-adelic.

1st my mind thinks (bum) there are things that can inhibit effects...not gonna let swim take them before they dunk.

2nd my mind thinks, well if there are inhibitors then there must be augmentives and...eurika! T and hershey's and cigs too? I will make sure that swim passes on the cigs...

3rd then the brainiack ADHD 2000, takes over and notices Hypertenson...HBP? smaller dosages, cyan's over cubes...right after swim ordered the midnight monthlyspecial (texan's) an pe6 an GT's, but swim has never mentioned leg pain to my brain, hand pain maybe but minor...(from drumming all night only)

No leg pain even from dancing and drumming all night...

"so is the possibility of the high BP from just being a lil puffed all the time even when getting BP taken? BP seems to be fine when puffage isnt a menu item for that day."

I guess that is the question.

did that make any sense?

I knew swim liked cyan's for a reason.
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#19 Om shanti

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:42 AM

I never measured my blood pressure while on shrooms, but I will do it some time when I am able to force my self to it. I would think that for psilocybin, the maximum possible increase in systolic BP can't be more than perhaps 10mmHg, which isn't more than you would have from taking an easy walk. I think the lower body load on pans is mostly due to other factors than (possible) lower vasoconstriction. But if someone experiences pains that might resemble those of severe vasoconstriction while on shrooms, I would still recommend trying pans to see if that might help the problem.

I was able to measure my blood pressure while on a low dose of Mescaline some time ago, tea made of only 25 grams of chips from a renowned Peruvian source, and the tea gave only mild psychedelic effects. My systolic blood pressure shot up from 137 to around 170-1755mmHg while the diastolic increased from 70 to nearly 100mmHg. That's beginning to near the zone where it's no longer comfortable, and bear in mind the effects of mescaline are long lasting, and my BP was in this zone for around 6 hours. but I compared it to the literature on Ecstacy, and this kind of blood pressure increase is pretty normal for MDMA... which is in the same broad 'family' of phenetylamines (isn't that the name).

But I also don't think the increase in BP from mescaline is due primarily to vasoconstriction. If you take a high dose of LSA you will know what vasoconstriction is.. there isn't anything like it for inducing pain in the limbs.

By the way, in an article I read on Ayahuasca (one of the authors was D. McKenna) the BP increases were on the order of about 10mmHg on average, as far as I remember. Apparently much lower BP increases than the smoking or injection of pure DMT causes.

Edited by Om shanti, 14 August 2009 - 09:45 AM.
clarification


#20 RestartLater

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 10:08 AM

ok......... so anyone that has had a heart attack and has HBP should not be eating boomers?


RestartLater
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