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Non Cased: Compressed vs Loose subs


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#1 eatyualive

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 04:08 PM

so i was chatting with hyph about this. ive always done my subs light and fluffy with excellent results unless the substrate has heavy amounts of straw. i will then compress the subs with heavy straw content.

now, over the years ive never needed to try the substrate compressed due to the loose subs working so well. so im running a two bin comparison now to see if there is any difference. there is also another two bin comparison coming in a few weeks too.

roughly the same amount of substrates, volumes, ratios, spawn and strains are being used. with the same exact chamber. they will be very close to proximity in light source and all aspects of the experiment. substrates are coir/verm/hips poo/ strawnet and 1/4 cup per bin of supercake formula. spawn is 2.5 quarts of wbs each bin.

not that i dont' beleive the compressed sub will work well i just have never tried it. and now hyph has convinced me to.

my guess is the fruits will be smaller in a bulk sub layed out flat and compressed. we are not talking about cakes or compressed cake format growing. just normal single tub with 3.5" sub depth. the sub depth of the compressed sub is about 2" pressed as hard as i could press it. both also have supercake formula in it.

so far 3 days both subs are completely colonized. the compressed subs appear to be more cottony. while the uncompressed sub seems to have more rhizomorphic strands popping upwards.

im sure many have done this before. but this is just my little test. i have two other bins being tested all with tasmanian strain clone as well.
all similar methods, ratios, fruiting chambers and temps.

same year old 2nd generation clone as in this thread. https://mycotopia.ne...aterial-update/

this should be interesting. im not knocking either method and i have a preference now of light and fluffy. however, i always experiment to try to improve, so if this works well i may switch.

tub 1 compressed tub

compressed.jpg





tub 2 loose tub

loose.jpg



#2 eap

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 04:18 PM

what does the substrate consist of ?
EDIT: sory i cant read. im looking forward to the results so i can copy them your grows are alway awesome

#3 feralronin

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 04:33 PM

"substrates are coir/verm/hips poo/ strawnet and 1/4 cup per bin of supercake formula. spawn is 2.5 quarts of WBS each bin."

Awesome eats, I have been wondering this myself now that I am doing PF cakes--->bulk mono and dubtubs.

Will be watching this one, my guess is that the compressed sub will shoot off fewer shrooms per flush, but weight will be near identical. And I think that the compressed sub will last more flushes.


In the end I am thinking the weight will be very close.

Can't wait to eat my words.

#4 eatyualive

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 07:39 PM

i think this might be the poo i used. correct me if im wrong hip.

http://www.mycrotopi... Bulk Substrate

anyway, its bone dry, rock hard, and perfect. great deal actually best on the net and quality.

most of it is easier to break it up by hand. but some chunks are very hard. some of the biscuits you might need to add moisture to them and allow them to rehydrate for a bit say 30 mins before working with them by hand.

ive seen some horrible poo from other vendors off this site i won't mention that was wet and just smelled of ammonia and piss. the entire 50lbs of it contamed. and it was ordered dry. wettest dry poo i ever seen...lmao. i had to mix an entire 2 cubic foot bag of verm with it to lower the moisture content and dry it out for 3 days under fan and heat. and it still all contamed. had a friend test it out too. and it wasn't just me. his all contamed too. completely unprofessional and a waste of time and money. it wasn't even composted properly.

there is such thing as crappy crap. and this poo hip has is definitely top quality.

#5 M&M420

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 07:54 PM

:cool: My thought process is that the fluffier would hold more water although would evap faster so....Idk.So did you pack it down real good?What's the depth comparison?

#6 Guest_floppypeter_*

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 08:14 PM

Pulling up a chair....:)

#7 mushhut

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 09:55 PM

Ive done compressed straw and it didnt fruit that well. I too seen that the mycelium in the compressed was more fluffy then an uncompressed. Your compressed subs will do beter then mine. I only used straw and ms spawn. Your using a mix sub and a clone. I cant wait to see your results.

#8 psilytex

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 10:33 PM

To me the "fluffy" looks alot healthier then compressed. Over the years Ihave noticed that I've always had great luck with "fluffier" mix ten compacting it.
I'm jealous btw.
very nice

#9 p2k1

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 11:03 PM

Maybe the compressed could give you a higher yield eventually if you compressed more sub into the same space as occupied by the fluffy mix but what Ive seen and what stands to reason is that a compressed substrate will take longer to colonize and break down substrate. It just seems like common sense. If you have a couple inches of solid shit mud with absolutely no spacing and aeration how can you expect the mycellium to run through it?

#10 eatyualive

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 11:29 PM

:cool: My thought process is that the fluffier would hold more water although would evap faster so....Idk.So did you pack it down real good?What's the depth comparison?



well both substrates were mixed exactly the same as the other. water was added prior to pasteurization and then once cool. spawned. once spawning was complete one substrate was compressed. so the water content should be exactly the same.

Maybe the compressed could give you a higher yield eventually if you compressed more sub into the same space as occupied by the fluffy mix but what Ive seen and what stands to reason is that a compressed substrate will take longer to colonize and break down substrate. It just seems like common sense. If you have a couple inches of solid shit mud with absolutely no spacing and aeration how can you expect the mycellium to run through it?


yes good point. i know in straw it runs quickly. but ive not compressed it to the point where its not fluffy enough to colonize. the timing on the spawn run was exactly the same.

#11 p2k1

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 12:17 AM

Hey eat I really respect your work and would like to hear your thoughts on pasteurization. I read somewhere recently that it is essentially a waste of time and sterilization should be used. This caught my attention because that is infact what I have been doing.
http://www.shroomery...964/an/0/page/0
Is the basic method I followed, made a sub of basically 50/50 straw and composter manure (cow i believe) from a farm supply store, and a nice amount of verm thrown in too. No other additives. Put in oven bags at field capacity and put in the pc with the lid off and the bag draped over the edge held in with a pot of water on top. Didnt have a water/meat thermometer to read the water temp and essentially had the stove running a setting or too below the highest, realized later this was probably a lot higher than 140 degrees.
Anyways, six tubs were made this way and the only contamination any of them ever encountered was cobweb when they had to be packed up and got no fresh air exchange for an extended period. They also produced some monstrous texans.
It should also be noted that the house they were in was an absolute fucking shithole. The room they were in was kept clean had no carpet and was lysoled continuosly and had fans running but outside that room there was garbage and mold fucking everywhere. Like to an unbelieveable degree.
The tubs never contaminated tho.

Sorry if thats way too long but would like to hear your opinion on the matter

#12 stimpy

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 01:03 AM

this should be good

#13 TVCasualty

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 09:26 AM

I think I'll barge in and grab a front-row seat too.

My first impression of this method in a bulk setting is that it might need to be kept confined to small chunks; that is, maybe making the sub no bigger than one square foot by however many inches deep. That may allow the core to get more oxygen where a large area might suffocate it. That, or embedding an empty pipe (or one filled with perlite, maybe) with holes drilled in it into the middle of the sub might bring in enough air to let a compressed sub thrive.


Hey eat I really respect your work and would like to hear your thoughts on pasteurization. I read somewhere recently that it is essentially a waste of time and sterilization should be used. This caught my attention because that is infact what I have been doing.
http://www.shroomery....64/an/0/page/0
Is the basic method I followed, made a sub of basically 50/50 straw and composter manure (cow i believe) from a farm supply store, and a nice amount of verm thrown in too. No other additives. Put in oven bags at field capacity and put in the pc with the lid off and the bag draped over the edge held in with a pot of water on top. Didnt have a water/meat thermometer to read the water temp and essentially had the stove running a setting or too below the highest, realized later this was probably a lot higher than 140 degrees.
Anyways, six tubs were made this way and the only contamination any of them ever encountered was cobweb when they had to be packed up and got no fresh air exchange for an extended period. They also produced some monstrous texans.
It should also be noted that the house they were in was an absolute fucking shithole. The room they were in was kept clean had no carpet and was lysoled continuosly and had fans running but outside that room there was garbage and mold fucking everywhere. Like to an unbelieveable degree.
The tubs never contaminated tho.


I wasn't specifically asked, but here's my thoughts on it: That thread you linked did not show the sub being sterilized. It was excessively pasteurized maybe, but if it was sterilized there would be no need to poke holes in the bag to prevent spontaneous bacterial contamination (for one thing). Also, 160℉ isn't even close to hot enough to sterilize anything. The beneficial bacteria that thrive at that temp would still be happy and healthy.

My own experience is that a sub or casing that I pasteurize for 3 hours or so at 150℉ is sufficiently resistant to contamination; I usually don't see any until it's already been tossed in the yard. Pasteurizing for only an hour or two gives me much worse results; the key seems to be to get the entire substrate up to about 150, then keep it there for at least two hours. As far as I can tell, that's enough time for the thermophilic bacteria to multiply sufficiently to inhibit contaminants. I think that because a sub I keep at 150 for several hours takes almost twice as long to cool down as one that only got up to 150 for an hour or less, and my guess is it's due to the thermogenesis caused by the beneficial (thermophilic) bacteria.

The other issue with sterilizing a bulk sub is pressure cooker capacity. For true sterilization, the cooker needs to be closed and brought up to 15 psi for at least an hour. That equates to many, many hours of watching the pressure gauge only to end up with a relatively small amount of substrate since most people are confined to an AA 921 or smaller cooker (such as a Presto that only holds four quarts).

#14 kcmoxtractor

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 05:43 PM

Very, interesting comparison eat, Ill be watching this one for sure.

#15 eatyualive

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 03:07 AM

Hey eat I really respect your work and would like to hear your thoughts on pasteurization. I read somewhere recently that it is essentially a waste of time and sterilization should be used. This caught my attention because that is infact what I have been doing.
http://www.shroomery...964/an/0/page/0
Is the basic method I followed, made a sub of basically 50/50 straw and composter manure (cow i believe) from a farm supply store, and a nice amount of verm thrown in too. No other additives. Put in oven bags at field capacity and put in the pc with the lid off and the bag draped over the edge held in with a pot of water on top. Didnt have a water/meat thermometer to read the water temp and essentially had the stove running a setting or too below the highest, realized later this was probably a lot higher than 140 degrees.
Anyways, six tubs were made this way and the only contamination any of them ever encountered was cobweb when they had to be packed up and got no fresh air exchange for an extended period. They also produced some monstrous texans.
It should also be noted that the house they were in was an absolute fucking shithole. The room they were in was kept clean had no carpet and was lysoled continuosly and had fans running but outside that room there was garbage and mold fucking everywhere. Like to an unbelieveable degree.
The tubs never contaminated tho.

Sorry if thats way too long but would like to hear your opinion on the matter


pasteurization kills the bad, keeps the good. sterilizing just kills everything. i find both work great.

if you sterilize something. imho its more prone to contam if the slightest contam gets near it. take for instance grain jars.

im not against either. i like both. but its easier to pasteurize bulk amounts of substrates opposed to pressure cooking it in a bag. you may have to do several loads to accomplish what one oven baked pasteurization will make. you can simply get turkey tins. then mix your sub and add the water to just over field capacity to account for evaporation moisture loss. then stick foil over that and put it in the oven for 2.5 hours for 170 degrees. i go to 200 with ovens that have 200 as the minimum setting. the reaso i say 2.5 hours is that you get a half hour for the sub inside the tin to reach 200. its just an estimate. you could go longer. i used to do 4 hours. but its not necessary.

now as far as casings are concerned. i always sterilize casings. ive never had much luck pasteurizing a casing. it always contams for me.

i use both methods. but someones opinion on not pasteurizing most likely means they fail at pasteurizing.

they both work great. and in certain species you may need good bacteria in a casing to get fruits. then sterilization wouldn't work. you would need to pasteurize.

pasteurization is between 160 and 170. look in the new vaults here we have some nice steam pasteurization methods as well.

as far as going and saying pasteurization is a waste of time is a flawed statement. its been proven time and time again that it works great. its all preference. personally it takes longer to pasteurize. but in the end. you may have to run your pc a few times to equal the amount of substrate your using. so in the end, it takes longer if you have one pc. when you can fill a giant cooler with water and use the steam to pasteurize giant amounts of substrate within a 2 hour time frame. id like to see anyone try to make 4 tubs worth of subs by using spawn bags to sterilze in one pressure cooker. you might end up needing 3 pressure cookers to equal the amount of volume your getting in one ice cooler of pasteurizing a substrate.

sterilizing isn't bad. it should work fine if you pressure cooked your subs. just spawn in a clean room and it should be fine.

next time on cobweb spray it with a bottle filled with h202. should get rid of it.

#16 turboinferno

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 05:57 AM

Information gets me high, thanks!:puke:

#17 pvacant

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 09:16 AM

wow thanks Eats, already this thread has a ton of useful info. i have always packed mine down....so i can't wait to see the results. and god thanks everyone posting about pasteurizing versus sterilizing, although i haven't sterilized subs, only pasteurized, this info rocks. and about sterilizing casings, hum......gonna give that a go for a while and see how it works for me. thanks guys.

#18 seedlessstinky1

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 09:33 AM

turned on and tuned in....with no intention of dropping out til the shrooms start poppin about...

IME jars tight(er) and subs loose(er). The colonization time seems to long, inviting contams when the sub is too tight, yet when its tight you theoretically have more food. soooo.

hhhmmmppp...coool thread.:headbang:

#19 Hippie3

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 11:07 AM

i think this might be the poo i used. correct me if im wrong hip.

http://www.mycrotopi... Bulk Substrate

anyway, its bone dry, rock hard, and perfect. great deal actually best on the net and quality.

most of it is easier to break it up by hand. but some chunks are very hard. some of the biscuits you might need to add moisture to them and allow them to rehydrate for a bit say 30 mins before working with them by hand.

ive seen some horrible poo from other vendors off this site i won't mention that was wet and just smelled of ammonia and piss. the entire 50lbs of it contamed. and it was ordered dry. wettest dry poo i ever seen...lmao. i had to mix an entire 2 cubic foot bag of verm with it to lower the moisture content and dry it out for 3 days under fan and heat. and it still all contamed. had a friend test it out too. and it wasn't just me. his all contamed too. completely unprofessional and a waste of time and money. it wasn't even composted properly.

there is such thing as crappy crap. and this poo hip has is definitely top quality.

correct

#20 hyphaenation

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 12:05 PM

My uneducated guess would be the compressed sub would take slightly longer to colonize due to packing , but will give rise to larger , meatier fruits and have more flushes.

Can't wait to see some results. Thanks for doing this Eats.




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