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Newest Nobel Peace Prize Awardee


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#41 TVCasualty

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 08:51 AM

I_am_me: I only mentioned Kissinger because although he may have had a great potential for a lot of things, in one instance of his political genius he personally engineered events that caused the violent deaths of untold thousands of people (the secret bombing of Cambodia). At that was just one instance. Death can be a form of peace, I suppose, and in that sense he richly deserved some sort of prize for delivering so much of it to so many.


I think a big part of the problem we're having with partisan rhetoric and flaring anger is that the smoke-and-mirrors nature of politics is becoming a bit more transparent to increasing numbers of people, and it understandably pisses them (us) off. It might be a function of our society reaching a point where the stakes are getting terrifyingly high but we still lack the visionary thinking, resource allocation, and unified sense of purpose it will take for us to craft (and then endure) the transition from where we are now to the kind of civilization we need to become if we want to continue existing without sudden and drastic drops in the population in the near future. Maybe most people are only really aware of it on a subconscious level, but perhaps this awareness manifests as the sense of desperation that fuels the increasingly bitter partisan anger that seems to be growing? Fear causes humans to circle the wagons and see other circles of wagons as attackers, and it's all downhill from there.


I think a big part of the issue with Obama getting the Peace Prize is most people's conception of a 'prize.' I'd wager most of us would say prizes are recognition for things we've accomplished, not things others would like to see us accomplish (otherwise we're all eligible for quite a few prizes, then). So, if the Prize is given as a 'push' instead of an award, it's merely a tool of political theater among many others in the same old game which I think is ultimately going to further diminish the status of the Peace Prize in the minds of a lot of people. I've long thought it to be an award devoid of much meaning (unlike, say, the Nobel Prize for Chemistry) , and I wouldn't even call myself a cynic. My friends and I can gather together and vote to award Peace Prizes too, but ours confer no prestige or power so no one cares who we award them to, no one quietly moves behind the scenes to game our selection process, and no one seeks to sway our votes to push an agenda.

And if we can't think of anyone else to award a Peace Prize to then I'd say the mainstream media is doing it's job well and keeping the masses ignorant of anything substantive, like the work of the countless unsung volunteers and activists sacrificing material comforts, their freedom, and in many cases their lives for... PEACE.

But no, give it to a guy who had to sacrifice nothing as he offered us little more than a secular prayer: Hope (the 'stimulus' money isn't backed by anything so it's technically "hope" too). I've been hoping in one hand since he took office and shitting in the other and guess which hand is now overflowing?

It was the shift in consciousness of the people themselves that is to be credited for any improvements in global diplomacy or ratcheting-down of tension; Obama was just a focal point for their thoughts. We will have evolved to the point where we have a shot at surviving as a species when we can create those kinds of shifts as needed within ourselves, completely independently of some charismatic figure coming along that we invest our 'hopes' and 'dreams' in. One hazard is that when the charismatic figure falls, so do his followers, so what happens to "Hope" if Obama totally fucks up or gets taken out? One thing's for sure, it won't be Peace.

It's the old Hero myth revisited; Someone Bigger Will Save Us. Heroes have a way of devolving into Despots even in the best of circumstances. Criticizing that dangerous myth is the whole point of Frank Herbert's Dune, which is why I tell everyone it's a 'must read.' Those who have read it will know what I'm getting at if I'm not explaining it very well here.


I carved a pipe out of a rock once, and I'm not being facetious at all in my suggestion of combining the two (rock + pipe) in both the metaphoric sense and the literal. I'd be happy to smoke out of it without incident for the rest of my life, but it's nice to have it handy in case I need it to be a rock. You never know when a Hero might arrive to try to 'help' you, and having a pipe you can also use as a rock offers that much more flexibility in terms of responses. Or at least I hope so.

#42 wildburr

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 09:15 AM

I'm with Hip on this "Fuck Politics"
And with that I exit this thread and all other political threads, I didnt want political discussion back on the boards either. Its just creates more dissention amongst ourselves at a time when we really need to come together as a people. This rock throwing at each other needs to stop or our country will not ever get any better. Both sides have valid points and bullshit ones as well, its the extremism from both sides that are really getting us into trouble. I'm conservative but not to the extreme and I know there are some here that are liberal but not to the extreme. Lets just please all get back to what this site is all about, education on topics we all love (Mycology and others).

#43 CoyoteMesc

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 09:41 AM

Hey buck, no offense taken..but so far

ME the people have lost 35% of my 401k, gave up health benefits (because of the current economy negotiations were not in our favor), watched family suffer from losing 10 yrs worth of work, lend ears to friends that have been laid off work, etc.

BTW, I could give two shits what anyone here believe about my president. Im not trying to persuade anyone from
anything. Just voicing my opinion on the subject man.

You tell me what else ME the single man can do? That is part of many problems. Folks do not know what else
to do but listen, do what we are ask, hold out the storm and pray for the best.

So many things turning to shit faster than ever before in my life time; And for many folks older than I. Mean while
the man that is part of this thing has done nothing so far to even help let alone repair and he is given
a top honor. FUCK THAT.


So hell yeah, FUCK POLITICS lets just ride the waive and end up where we end up.

"If you dont want to be stolen from dont deal with thieves."

Edited by CoyoteMesc, 10 October 2009 - 07:22 PM.


#44 bbd2

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 10:42 AM

its not that there are not other people who have done substantive things for peace

its that his scope is so much greater than anyone else, even a tiny action on his part has such a large effect

but his actions are not tiny,
he has 80-90% approval rating in europe
according to some polls ppl there trust him more than their own leaders

who our leaders are matters
he is showing by example that u can be powerful and use that power to help others, and that leads to greater power
instead of padding your buddies pockets

he can redefine the culture of the powerful
so that in the future being ethical and moral is the mainstream of politics
instead of the shit we see today

no one is perfect
but at least he is making motions towards helping everyone
unlike some one else who was recently running things

#45 CoyoteMesc

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 11:28 AM

Europe ? :lol:

Come on man.

he is showing by example that u can be powerful and use that power to help others, and that leads to greater power
instead of padding your buddies pockets


Prove it...

I have personal proof in the opposite direction. Just read examples from my prev post.

he can redefine the culture of the powerful
so that in the future being ethical and moral is the mainstream of politics
instead of the shit we see today


That's another one of his problems. His definition of ethical and moral is not the same as mine. This is America not China. Dont cram you morals down my throat.


no one is perfect
but at least he is making motions towards helping everyone
unlike some one else who was recently running things


That's a cheap shot at Bush who you will more than likely change your
mind about just as the majority did about Regan. Bush was not the brightest man
that we have had in charge but as the past and future will show, not the most
destructive we have had either.

Getting off track a bit so Ill get back on.


Nothing that is said now will change what he has been awarded.
Only thing now, we hope that he can come through with/accomplish 5% of
his promises. My point being I hope that our President will earn what
has been given to him. Not just the NPP but the hope of millions of Americans.
Its off to a REAL rough start. Or has he started?

Edited by CoyoteMesc, 10 October 2009 - 07:23 PM.


#46 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 12:47 PM

The thing is, the Nobel Peace prize is fundamentally different from the sciences prizes. It always has been. It doesn't have the same type of selection criteria, it isn't given in the classical sense of a "prize."

Kissinger's win is a classic example. Carter's as well.

Wilson got it for the League of Nations - a good idea that collapsed almost immediately after it's formation. The Nobel folks gave him the prize because they liked the idea of a world governing body to solve problems that affect the whole world. That idea later reformed to become the United Nations. But that doesn't change the fact that Wilson won the Nobel Peace prize for something that failed.

The Nobel Peace prize has always been a political statement. Peace isn't an easily quantifiable thing like chemistry or physics. Peace is a fundamentally political animal in the modern world.

Heroes aren't always a bad thing. Hope isn't always a bad thing. Throwing rocks isn't always a bad thing. I would go for a rock chillum over a pipe, though. When shit goes down, it would make a nice club...

Without the involvement of a lot more people in society, politics and government - nothing is going to change at all. But screaming slogans isn't involvement that classically breeds constructive and lasting change. Tea bag rallies with 11 year old automatons telling crowds exactly what they want to hear does not classically breed constructive and lasting change.

Involvement, discussion, understanding and action bring lasting constructive change.

More people are involved than have been in a while, but fewer people are really talking than have in a while. There is an ugly "Us VS. Them" mentality these days where Us and Them are all Americans.

There are people in the peanut gallery these days who genuinely believe that our leaders want to physically destroy this country. Ann Coulter honestly believes that liberals want to destroy America. The concept is ludicrous on it's face, but it is still shouted from the rooftops.

It is easy to say Obama has done nothing. It isn't true, but it is easy because of the things that have stalled in the media. Health care is a perfect example.

But why is health care stalled? We all agree that people shouldn't go bankrupt and loose their homes because a drunk with no insurance hits 'em and puts them in intensive care for 2 weeks. We all agree that medical care should be accessible, affordable and of good quality.

So why are we screaming epithets instead of talking about this important problem?

Why is Obama so viciously beaten up for saying, "This shit is important, we gotta do something about it."

He takes the lumps because he is the guy standing in the front of the shitstorm that is American politics and saying, "Look, we gotta change some things."

I respect hell out of the guy for that. Things do need to change. This current trip we are on is a dead ender.

I was a very vocal Reagan supporter, by the way. He was a damned good president. I got in a lot of fights with my punk friends who had no idea what Reganomics meant but loved to call him the devil anyway.

I think Hope and Change are good mantras for this modern America.

But neither of those mean jack without involvement, discussion, understanding and action from We The People of The United States Of America.

#47 CoyoteMesc

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 07:18 PM

Great post and agreed.

On another note of the same subject.
I also think that with this announcement
that it will make things more difficult for him.
ie A parent giving a junior a car for graduation when
he is three semesters behind with failing grades.
The pressure has now been turned up a notch.

#48 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 12:12 AM

Over the long run, I don't think it will have much impact. He'll pull a couple extra million on the lecture circuit 10 years from now, but today it's just another talking point.

It's a million bucks that will go to a charity (or start a foundation) and an opportunity for another good speech.

It just bothers me to hear people throwing rocks about the President winning a prize that reflects well upon him and the country as a whole.

And I guess I'm kind of naive, but it really shocked me to hear Limbaugh say:

"Our president is a worldwide joke. Folks, do you realize something has happened here that we all agree with the Taliban and Iran about, and that is he doesn't deserve the award. Now that's hilarious, that I'm on the same side of something with the Taliban, and that we all are on the same side as the Taliban."

He sounds like an angry 13 year old girl.

Two weeks a go, I would have made a sarcastic joke like, "shit, Limbaugh would piss on it if Obama won a Nobel prize." But I would have been joking at the extreme absurdity of it.

Weird as Hell to actually see it. Shocking.

#49 finite_synapses

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 02:04 AM

I guess I'm one of the very few who pretty much abhors everything Reagan did... Oh well, fuck it. That's just me. When people say Reagan single-handedly demolished communist Russia, I want to tell them to talk to a Russian history professor, or at least talk to anyone who took History of Russia 101... that country was rotting from the inside out, and Reagan didn't speed up the process one fucking bit. He set up modern politics as we see them, corrupt and shitty and screwing the common man on a daily basis. We are all entitled to our own opinions. I didn't start this thread for partisan bullshit, I was honestly just surprised by the news...

#50 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 10:40 AM

I happen to think Reagan and Clinton were the two greatest presidents of the modern age.

Ya gotta look all the way back to Roosevelt to find another period of comparable American prosperity.

But everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

#51 TVCasualty

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 11:14 AM

I guess I'm one of the very few who pretty much abhors everything Reagan did...


Don't forget about what Reagan didn't do. His administration's silence about the spread of HIV caused tremendous harm to this country and it's no exaggeration to say that delaying a proper response to the emerging epidemic cost a lot of people's lives. The stigma of AIDS caused it to be ignored by Reagan as a disease affecting homosexuals and IV drug users (and who cares about them, eh?), but the karma of that approach came back home to roost in a pretty intense and tragic way.

Then there was Iran/Contra.

Yeah, fuck politics. It's like liquor; after getting into it a bit too much it makes my head hurt and I promise myself that I won't do it again, and yet sometimes it's not even two weeks later that I forgot all about the hangover and reach for that bottle again... :horse:

#52 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 11:17 AM

The prayer of the porcelain bus driver:

"Lord, if you will just get me through this, I will never, ever drink this much again..."

Thank God opiates kill you so much more quickly and obviously. It is much easier to stay away from heroine than scotch...or political debate...

At least Iran/Contra got a guy named "Ollie" into the national spotlight for the first time since the days of silent film!

#53 Hippie3

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 11:29 AM

i do think most 'critics' of obama
were dead-set against him
even before he took office.
he simply hasn't had enough time yet
to accomplish much-
a fact the 'critics' inadvertently admit
by denouncing the peace prize as 'too soon'.
if it's too soon to be giving out awards
it's also too soon to fairly judge him on his policies.

#54 TVCasualty

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 11:54 AM

Time for a real change, America!

Watch for us in 2012!

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#55 growurown

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 12:08 PM

he got me a temp job. so he did do something. got me a job. better then all the past presidents in my lifetime have done for me.

#56 Hippie3

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 12:12 PM

it's your very first job ever ?

#57 wildburr

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 02:17 PM

he got me a temp job. so he did do something. got me a job. better then all the past presidents in my lifetime have done for me.



I fail to ever believe the president personally got you a job. You got yourself the job by going out and looking for it. Obama didnt come to your door or call you on the phone saying hey have I got a job for you.
It is not the Presidents nor the governments job, to get you a job.

#58 -=Zeus=-

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 08:05 PM

fuck politics.

My feelings exactly.

#59 Oblivion

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 11:13 AM

he got me a temp job. so he did do something. got me a job. better then all the past presidents in my lifetime have done for me.


Unless he vouched for your work ethics, he didnt get you jack shit, you did. You should straighten your back and hold your head up, not praise a stranger for your own efforts while looking down at yourself. A captive animal's way of life is dependant on their master's generosity and compassion. Don't confuse yourself for a beast on a tether, for you wield great power, that which beasts cannot.

#60 dice

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 11:19 AM

i do think most 'critics' of obama
were dead-set against him
even before he took office.
he simply hasn't had enough time yet
to accomplish much-
a fact the 'critics' inadvertently admit
by denouncing the peace prize as 'too soon'.
if it's too soon to be giving out awards
it's also too soon to fairly judge him on his policies.


Amen
Its crazy how so many people talk so much crap about him.
When like you said its true he hasnt had nearly enough time to do anything.
I find it hard to believe that people honestly thought he would change the
world as soon as he was elected.
They didnt give him time to take a dump let alone change the country.
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