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#1 mullugh

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 07:01 AM

I am reading The Spirit Molecule right now and got thinking about 'beings' that manifest themselves in trips.

I wanted to see how many have had experience with beings (I know of quite a few from reading spice reports already) on ANY substance. I am even more interested in ones seen on mushrooms.

I also wondered what level of interaction people have had with them and whether the encounter had a purpose or obvious meaning?

I have not had one yet (never had DMT), but I would kind of like an encounter of my own.

Any takers? I thought it deserves its own thread.
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#2 Teonanacatl38

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 08:15 AM

I don't talk about the more intimate interactions of my trips...

But the answer to your question is yes, on both accounts.

There are many that I have encountered on the Mushroom, and I inevitably learn something from all of them. The key is to keep your receiver tuned, your roots in the ground, and your mind free of expectations.



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#3 Shroomette

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 08:57 AM

On mushrooms I have encountered spirits or you could say different aspects of myself. (Introspect) Whether they looked disorted or decayed. Always a lessoned learn in those journeys. Cactus tea has always shown me what I need to deal with whether I like it or not. I have gotten to see what I think is my Godmother because, I never got to say goodbye but, haven't been able to truly hear what she has to say. Just makes me want to go deeper into the journeys.

#4 Frequency

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 12:37 PM

They are your own manifested emotions and perceptions of reality flooding your synapses in an uninhibited hailstorm of creativity, sensory experience, and neurotransmission. They aren't real in my opinion, just as the patterns and color changes are not part of reality.

The hallucinations and visuals are a very important aspect of every entheogenic experience, however do not confuse your own occipital allegory with actual organisms. They are constructs completed in combination of conscious and subconscious desires. They bear incredible importance, and are worthy of deep analyzation and interpretation, but do not confuse them with reality. They may influence your reality deeply, and in some ways seem more real than the corporeal, but they are in fact created internally.

#5 Phineas_Carmichael

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 12:48 PM

:eusa_clap Well said, Frequency! I agree whole-heartedly; everything we "meet" in the psychedelic universe is nothing more than excited [perhaps mis-firing] neurons in the brain IMHO. This is why "Set & Setting" is so important to psychedelic exploration. I don't mean to downplay the experience, but the feeling that there are "entities" all around me that I can't see unless my brain is swimming in a sea of chemicals feels too much like schizophrenia for my taste. I prefer to think of "them" as electrical impulses in my brain that I can learn from.

I also believe this explains the "flashback" phenomenon. In my universe, a "flashback" is a period in time where the psychonaut's brain spontaneously reproduces electrical storms similar to the signals produced by taking an active substance. Theoretically, through meditation, deep breathing, chant, etc. one can induce a similar state with no drugs at all!
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#6 koldj

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 01:12 PM

Sure.

I remember this one time when I was tripping on a medium dose dashed with lemon juice. It started kicking in really fast and strong and lasted very short but what a trip it was. Almost suddenly the sky started waving and began "opening" a cord straight to my brain through which I heard 'them' talking. Or sensing. They sounded ancient, they were the wisdom of nature and there were legions of them although they kind of seemed like one. Spirits, gods, maybe just one god. Call them what you will. Since that meeting I've been contacting them every time I do mushies. As a matter of fact I've never seen them. They showed me different things, they presented themselves in many many forms, sometimes even just to show me how elusive they are. Each time they teach me something new. They are tricky, they are smart. They are teachers and I feel total respect towards them.

I don't even know why I'm calling it 'them'. I don't know what it is. I can't name it but I definitely sensed a presence. I feel like I'm arriving at their realm - it has always been theirs and I'm just a visitor. And I believe it's very common thing for such entheogens as mushrooms and DMT/ayahuasca. This is shamanism, isn't it?.

BTW - this never happened to me on LSD. LSD seems to not carry any entities with it.

I haven't met any elves nor gnomes. This sounds kinda riddiculous to me but I cannot say they don't exist.

Edited by koldj, 27 February 2010 - 01:19 PM.


#7 Frequency

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 01:12 PM

BTW - this never happened to me on LSD. LSD seems to not carry any entities with it.

I haven't met any elves nor gnomes. This sounds kinda riddiculous to me but I cannot say they don't exist.


Why are entities/spirits any less ridiculous than elves or gnomes? They are on par.

Nice Osmond quote in your sig btw Koldjgdaro.

:eusa_clap Well said, Frequency! I agree whole-heartedly; everything we "meet" in the psychedelic universe is nothing more than excited [perhaps mis-firing] neurons in the brain IMHO. This is why "Set & Setting" is so important to psychedelic exploration. I don't mean to downplay the experience, but the feeling that there are "entities" all around me that I can't see unless my brain is swimming in a sea of chemicals feels too much like schizophrenia for my taste. I prefer to think of "them" as electrical impulses in my brain that I can learn from.


Thanks Phineas! Very well-said yourself. Indeed psychedelic states can be induced by meditation, breathing, etc. Getting this thread off-track here, so I'll try to stay on subject.

By definition, the visuals are perception in absence of stimuli, so to infer they hold weight in reality is to deny the very thing in which one would attempt to describe. Of course, redefining experience has never been a problem in science, that's one of the many attributes that make it a self-correcting unorthodox process of enlightenment. Much more so than the rigid religious supernatural explanations of reality. To give respect to such criteria, one must make the distinction between religious and spiritual. I, for one, am the least religious person I know, however enjoy many properties of the spiritual experience. I am a very spiritual person in leu of religion.

An interesting fact about our population on the Earth, is that over 25% of it's inhabitants reported experiencing hallucinations in ordinary states of consciousness. It is intrinsic for us to manifest our internal desires in absence of stimulus. Dreaming is vastly important in the construction, organization, and storing of memory, imagination, stress management, and a horde of other mental processes. We are predisposed to the psychedelic experience and are in a psychedelic state of mind a significant percentage of entire lives.

We are the magic makers.

Edited by Frequency, 27 February 2010 - 01:23 PM.


#8 koldj

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 01:23 PM

Why are entities/spirits any less ridiculous than elves or gnomes? They are on par.

I know, I meant no disregard. It's just that when I hear "gnomes", I'm thinking South Park and Imaginationland :D.

#9 space-cosmonaut

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 02:10 PM

Frequency

They are your own manifested emotions and perceptions of reality flooding your synapses in an uninhibited hailstorm of creativity, sensory experience, and neurotransmission.



Great write up, but....if this is true than explain why when people use dmt for instance theres a commonality of trips from people all over the world? For example people seeing the elves or gnomes, or seeing a written alien like language and then coming out of the trip and writing said language down. They then compare these written languages with other people having done the same thing, and they are identical or very close. Either all these people using a drug and seeing these beings has the same manifested emotions to see these knomes or written language or something else is going on such as are mind being able to see another dimesion with the help of the drug. But id like to here more input on this.

#10 Frequency

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 02:23 PM

I know, I meant no disregard. It's just that when I hear "gnomes", I'm thinking South Park and Imaginationland :D.


None taken Koldjgdaro, didn't mean to sound so hostile.

Great write up, but....if this is true than explain why when people use dmt for instance theres a commonality of trips from people all over the world? For example people seeing the elves or gnomes, or seeing a written alien like language and then coming out of the trip and writing said language down.


The elves/gnomes phenomenon is a bit of psychological suggestion from McKenna's experience reports with DMT. From then on the reports were laden with such experiences, not that they hadn't occurred previously to McKenna, obviously they could have, and hence resulted in attempts at explanation by the underground and professionals alike.

Understanding the differences between reality and internal manifistations is an important phase in the development of our attempt to understand understanding. That is, the mechanics of our own interpretation and the definition of "knowing how we know" in other words.

This is the basis for metacognition. That is, interpreting cognition by analysis of it's fundamentals and modality. Discriminating between reality and hallucination is learned as we develop and plays a large role in producing ordinary-state hallucinations. Our own predispositions and environmental stimuli combine to influence our psychedelic experiences when they arise, potentiated by external stimuli or not.

Our own expectations also direct our trips greatly and this is essentially the toolset that with which the shaman applies his procedures. Otherwise what good would becoming proficient in attempting to "guide" or "shape" a psychedelic experience? Would it not be futile to attempt to gain personal perspective without the ability to change and mold the experience for yourself? Do we not pride ourselves with that ability in the entheogenic community?

The development of the psychedelic experience in ordinary or unordinary states are highly maluable in the direction of our own expectation. I always take this is great consideration when attempting to intepret my own and others reports in psychedelia. Remember to take all this in stride and please do research and read the evidence for yourselves. This is just my humble opinion in my meager understanding of the complex wonderful chemical reaction that is Mind.

Much love.

Edited by Frequency, 27 February 2010 - 02:39 PM.

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#11 space-cosmonaut

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 02:34 PM

That is a nice concept ,Frequency, about phsycology. I never thought about how after someone reads trip reports of the famous "elves" they are more likely to see them because the idea is in there brain from then on. Nice thinking. :eusa_clap

#12 riseabovethought

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 04:59 PM

None taken Koldjgdaro, didn't mean to sound so hostile.



The elves/gnomes phenomenon is a bit of psychological suggestion from McKenna's experience reports with DMT. From then on the reports were laden with such experiences, not that they hadn't occurred previously to McKenna, obviously they could have, and hence resulted in attempts at explanation by the underground and professionals alike.

Understanding the differences between reality and internal manifistations is an important phase in the development of our attempt to understand understanding. That is, the mechanics of our own interpretation and the definition of "knowing how we know" in other words.

This is the basis for metacognition. That is, interpreting cognition by analysis of it's fundamentals and modality. Discriminating between reality and hallucination is learned as we develop and plays a large role in producing ordinary-state hallucinations. Our own predispositions and environmental stimuli combine to influence our psychedelic experiences when they arise, potentiated by external stimuli or not.

Our own expectations also direct our trips greatly and this is essentially the toolset that with which the shaman applies his procedures. Otherwise what good would becoming proficient in attempting to "guide" or "shape" a psychedelic experience? Would it not be futile to attempt to gain personal perspective without the ability to change and mold the experience for yourself? Do we not pride ourselves with that ability in the entheogenic community?

The development of the psychedelic experience in ordinary or unordinary states are highly maluable in the direction of our own expectation. I always take this is great consideration when attempting to intepret my own and others reports in psychedelia. Remember to take all this in stride and please do research and read the evidence for yourselves. This is just my humble opinion in my meager understanding of the complex wonderful chemical reaction that is Mind.

Much love.


UGH.

Thanks TEON for allowing some sanity into this conversation. Were amazing organic divine infinite connections of pure energy.:eusa_danc

#13 space-cosmonaut

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 05:16 PM

Riseabovethought, are you trying to say the rest of us are not sain? Try reading my posts on the thread, frequencies and everyone elses. We all have good ideas and points. Try giving some better input than just putting a quote and a few word response. Sorry, but you came off as a little arrogant.
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#14 koldj

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 05:17 PM

Frequency

Great write up, but....if this is true than explain why when people use dmt for instance theres a commonality of trips from people all over the world? For example people seeing the elves or gnomes, or seeing a written alien like language and then coming out of the trip and writing said language down. They then compare these written languages with other people having done the same thing, and they are identical or very close. Either all these people using a drug and seeing these beings has the same manifested emotions to see these knomes or written language or something else is going on such as are mind being able to see another dimesion with the help of the drug. But id like to here more input on this.

I know what you're digging here, man ;).

I was watching a documentary called Manifesting the Mind yesterday. Apparently it's quite new. It's a bunch of interviews of famous psychonauts collected together. Alex Grey was sitting before one of his pictures, namely this one
Posted Image
and he explained what a shaman does. He said that the shaman enters a realm of interconnectedness of all beings or something like that and his words and vision totally struck me :eusa_eh:. I mean - I've been in the same place, it looked nearly the same. It is the karmic realm where those spirits that I described earlier exist.

I'm quite fascinated by the fact that others have been there, too and that our "hallucinations" are so alike. I wrote a little bit about this realm today and I'll hopefully throw the finished text here on Topia so we can verify if there is something in it, or are we all just having hallucinations.

And this?
Posted Image
I don't think it needs any explanations.

BTW - do you have any samples of this mystical alien language?
Just like you I am looking for a common, universal spiritual realm that is hidden beyond our physical world.
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#15 Calaquendi

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 06:20 PM

Excellent thread - awesome discussion, props! :eusa_clap

Frequency my good man...while I admire your fastidiousness and eager, sharp mind, I must respectfully disagree with on this one...I do believe spirits are real. I just don't know exactly what they are, but I am fairly certain some of the more outlandish things I have encountered were 'real' and autonomous... Maybe interpreted as 'aliens', 'ghosts', 'elves' , 'angels', 'entities', etc. but all of the same ilk. And likely we don't really understand them at all. There are too many things I have personally experienced, and I like to think I know my own mind - it's quirks and manifestations as much as a man can...or at least attempt. I'm botching this, hold on...

When I first encountered what I felt was an entity - I had never been so scared. I'd read and heard about all this to be sure - and so perhaps there was a propensity to 'look' for things. But I really didn't. I was raised Catholic and though I am in recovery- seeing 'spirits' was waay not on my list of to-do's...yet it happened. Furthermore I believe with all the varied experience I have that I can differentiate between an 'hallucination' and what I consider 'contact'. For me contact is very very rare. And let me tell you, I am just fine with that. If that shit happened to me every single time I smoked DMT I don't know if I would smoke it anymore. No shit...

I know some researchers have 'reproduced' certain feelings of presences in the lab ie studies on sleep states (sleep paralysis, etc) but I'm not sold. On more than one occasion, there was absolutely something tangible, unaccounted for, and 'alien' present...by alien I mean totally 'other' than myself. This was not a typical hallucination. No sir...no way...it wasn't even, IMO, an atypical hallucination. I read McKenna for years before I ever even saw DMT...frankly, the guy's rants almost prevented me from trying the stuff...I don't give a shit about elves. At least I didn't. Look all I am saying is this: I really don't think there's enough evidence either way to make a solid proclamation one way or the other. I realize empirical data is paramount to proving these things exist, autonomously...but even if one does not believe other beings exist, what about other states of consciousness? Ones that are not tethered to three dimensional reality? If consciousness - AT ALL- can exist sans the body, then why not 'spirits'? Perhaps one day we will be able to measure these things scientifically, then the debate will take a new and powerful direction with fresh energies behind it. Who knows? I don't know you guys. A lot of sincere and smart people here, that's why it's home sweet home for ole Cal. I enjoy these discussions and debates immensely, after all - we're all here for many of the same reasons.

Thanks for the ear, wicked thread. :bow: Respect ~Cal

#16 riseabovethought

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 07:01 PM

Lets just say, to answer your question, YES, Teon has the SANEst perspective (and Shroomette and Kol and Cal).

To belittle, even persuade others to belittle their communicative experiences which many find illuminating and beyond most peoples' bounds of reason and reality, thereby enlightening and helpful...

To belittle exploration of the soul by calling it chemical confusion and then accepting that as a possible explanation is at best boring and at worst, INSANE. No offense.

The 'unknown' makes many people uncomfortable, thats for sure, but that shouldnt stop the true explorer, the discoverer, the creator.

Just felt the urge to point out how boring it is to think about it that way tho IMHO, (like its all smoke and mirrors and its just confused chemicals faking us out). I just dont like that concept. It seems to belittle so much of what we do and how important I think this work is. To explore the cosmos within and bring back greatness and newness is truly great work and to be commended IMHO.

Didnt mean to sound arrogant. I actually thought you were being sarcastic space-cosmonaut, when you responded to Frequency like that.

Sorry Freq, I always love your posts man, but I gotta disagree with you on this one.

Edited by riseabovethought, 27 February 2010 - 07:30 PM.


#17 riseabovethought

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 07:10 PM

Sorry, i guess i did come out swinging, i apologize. Just felt attacked for being comfortable in exploring the unknown, as if Im just fooling myself. I disagree with this notion, and find it patronizing.

Our minds must stay open in order to be best prepared for whatever unknown is coming next.

Edited by riseabovethought, 27 February 2010 - 07:23 PM.

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#18 space-cosmonaut

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 07:11 PM

Thanks for clarifying yourself Riseabove thought. But you shouldnt take someones post they took awhile to write and just go "UGH". Everyone has there opinion on things. I personally think the entities are real, and that the drug we take allows us to see them. But frankly, we as humans dont know what they are and why we see them. So in that regards, we all have the right to post our opinions on the matter when it presents itself. Sorry if i came out as strong in the last post. But i felt i had to say something.

#19 Frequency

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 10:36 PM

To belittle, even persuade others to belittle their communicative experiences which many find illuminating and beyond most peoples' bounds of reason and reality, thereby enlightening and helpful... To belittle exploration of the soul by calling it chemical confusion and then accepting that as a possible explanation is at best boring and at worst, INSANE. No offense.


I compel you to find one iota of of belittlement in my descriptions of human hallucination RiseAboveThought. My explanation does exactly the opposite of what you claim. It admires the process of psychedelic analyzation. It champions exploring extraordinary states of consciousness. It propels entheogenic study into the intense scrutiny and validity that the scientific process provides.

To retain orthodox medieval understanding if the face of so much scientific evidence, which doesn't belittle and demean the field of mental exploration as you claim, but glorifies it in a new and precise light that it has never been shown in before. It shows us what is really happening underneath it all. It amplifies and directs us into ideas based on reality rather than superstition. It's actual effect is completely contrary to your accusation.

Just felt the urge to point out how boring it is to think about it that way tho IMHO, (like its all smoke and mirrors and its just confused chemicals faking us out). I just dont like that concept. It seems to belittle so much of what we do and how important I think this work is. To explore the cosmos within and bring back greatness and newness is truly great work and to be commended IMHO.



In spite of all of the beautiful and dynamic interactions that science elaborates to us about the psychedelic experience, and to which I attribute responsibility for the amount of understanding that we actually have about the subject, you find the nerve to label it a bore? This is completely absurd and disrespects the field at it's core. You say yourself, "I just don't like the concept." - Now that is a truly close-minded statement in the face of overwhelming evidence Rise.

The only one labeling the psychedelic experience as "confused chemicals faking us out" is you! In no way do I make such a claim. I bring to the light the greatness in truth that is withheld deep inside psychdelia. You impede psychedelic development and improvement by chaining it to the misconceptions of the past, dragging it deep into the mud of confusion and delaying many a shaman's enlightenment by way of biased interpretation and old-fashioned ignorance. No offence.

Didnt mean to sound arrogant. I actually thought you were being sarcastic space-cosmonaut, when you responded to Frequency like that. Sorry Freq, I always love your posts man, but I gotta disagree with you on this one. Just felt attacked for being comfortable in exploring the unknown, as if Im just fooling myself. I disagree with this notion, and find it patronizing. Our minds must stay open in order to be best prepared for whatever unknown is coming next.


Well, if I found an opinion contrary to mine and instead of simply finding a reason to designate my own beliefs into words to provide a contrasting viewpoint, I thumbed my nose at the idea and proclaimed it, "Dissatisfying and uncomfortable", would you lend any credence or respect to that retort? Would you find it arrogant?

Science places psychedelic exploration on a pedestal while archaic revivalism of the old interpretations diminish our ability to effectively benefit from the experiences. The allegory that is our hallucinations and shamanic visions, thoughts, and ideas provide great insight and are highly valuable but hold no basis in reality.

To interpret them literally would be to miss the point. There is no disrespect in scientifically explaining the deities/angels/demons/spirits of the old ways. What should we expect they thought they were experiencing? Of course they described them in this way, they weren't living in the age of information. Now we are. Now we can truly respect the experience by explaining it correctly.

I know some researchers have 'reproduced' certain feelings of presences in the lab ie studies on sleep states (sleep paralysis, etc) but I'm not sold. On more than one occasion, there was absolutely something tangible, unaccounted for, and 'alien' present...


I don't doubt your sincerity Cala, and I completely respect your position, I'm simply attempting to explain the spiritual mysteries previously labeled as spirits/elves/deities in current context with new and precise tools. I don't scoff at the old-school shamans of the jungle for your misunderstanding, they were using their means in attempt to explain a very complex and mysterious subject. Now, thousands of years into advancement with technology we have a great understanding of molecular interaction and the processes of the mind on a cellular level. It adds value to the psychedelic experience, rather than removing it as RiseAbove implies. It respects the field by admiring it for it's truths and shedding it's at times comforting and other times frightening misconceptions.

The machinery of the mind has been charted by brilliant scientists and brave shamans alike, and the material is there for review. You just have to read it and apply it. If you find something is mistaken or incorrect, present a contrary claim with evidence. If you can't top a hypothesis, contribute to it's development and in time the truth we will shine regardless of human intention, greed, or want as is the unfortunate downfall RiseAbove is experiencing. He has an agenda when looking at the evidence, which is influencing his rational cognition.

Wanting something to be true doesn't make it so, and disliking a proposal does not discredit it in the least. If this were true, I'd be conceding to RiseAboveThought. In dreams perhaps, however in reality this just isn't the case.

Much love and respect to everyone.

#20 bbd2

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 11:39 PM

freq is batting a 1000 here

dmt produces the most "third person"/other entity-style experiences
the elves are labeled as such because
the specific visual hallucination has "pointy corners" that look like ears on a magical face
its like when u seen "them" the name "elves" just fits, its not forced or anything

nevertheless, the entire exp is constructed by and of the mind
and one risks derangement if u interpret visions literally as if they had basis in reality

they are a representation
a picture
a reproduction that is "behind in time" compared to the actual electrochemical stimuli
that generated the sensory state

your visions say more about you than anything else

to some extent it's the fact that such weird exp can be experienced at some times but not others, that finally convinces one that even ordinary reality is a "creature of the mind"
and all that ensues from that realisation

that being said, for me, the entitiness of non-dmt prescences is more diffuse
kinda like a second channel in my thinking, another style or mode of thought that responds to the the "me" primary thinking line. often there are at least 3 channels or ways of thinking about what is happening

on dmt, there are actual formations in light in the air in front of me (OEV)
and the visual will be imbued with presence like it is something/someone(s)
or there will be a surface with multidimensionally overlapping "ways of thinking/experiencing"
its weird, hard to explain exactly

anyway, it is these "ways of thinking/experiencing" that i consider to be spirits
if you violate what they need to "exist" they disappear/ one can no longer perceive them
experiencing them demands "faithfulness"
a sort of "morality" or "purity"
a commitment to taking the exact necessary steps in order to experience a particular state
and this very fine, close attention is what i think of as spiritual attunement/ spirituality/ holism/holisticness

and one can go far with that,
but it is still a construct of the mind
a "way of thinking"/ a spirit

Edited by bbd2, 27 February 2010 - 11:44 PM.

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