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Cactus chemistry question


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#1 Light-Being

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 03:44 PM

Hi myco-folks

LB's neighbor's dog says he is going to try that calcium hydroxide/limonene extraction on dried cactus powder, but there is one major piece of missing info: he needs to know how to figure out how much acid solution to use to salt.

He needs to know a simple ratio that he can apply regardless of the scale of the extraction. Something like this:

- for X grams of cactus extracted, use Y mL of H2SO4 in Z mL of water for each acid salting/extraction from the limonene. -

For this, he is open to using either sulfuric or HCl as the salt, but the main thing is he wants to know how to figure out the amount of acid to use.

Much thanks in advance for any help!

LB

Edited by Light-Being, 05 March 2010 - 07:01 PM.


#2 Mr Kush

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 05:17 PM

well fist of all its calcium hydroxide used as the base and not sodium carbonate...

on that forum he has a seperate thread where he salts hcl,
it says to add 20ml of dh20 and 5ml of 10% hcl solution to the d-limonene,
he mentions this will pull it out brown then he does a couple cleanups....

it's been a while since my foaf has salted that way as he likes gassing hcl way better (you cant gas hcl with d-limonene however), anyhow he always had good white results using 4 drops of common muriatic acid (31-33% hcl?) to 120ml of water. you could do that and add 25ml at a time.......

evaperate the first pull then it should be pretty easy to tell how to adjust appropriatly, or if you had a ph meter/paper you wouldnt have to wait for evaperation..

good luck hoping for the best.
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#3 Light-Being

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 07:01 PM

Ah yes thanks, I did mean CaOH.

However, he is actually not going by a specifically scaled method as you are thinking... he is undecided on how big a scale he will do this on, which is why he would like to know a way to figure the acid amount that is adjustable to whatever scale he ends up choosing.

I like what you say about the ease of using muriatic, but isn't there a way (is it molarity?) to mathematically figure out how much acid to use based on how much base was used or something like that? I mean what if he decides to extract 500g of cactus? Or 1000g? Surely that large a scale would need more HCl acid solution per acid extraction than 120 mL, wouldn't it?

Can you elaborate on how a pH meter would be used?

Anyone else: do you know how the sulfate salt would be figured/made?

#4 Mr Kush

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 07:38 PM

4 drops of 31-33% hcl acid to 120ml of dh20 is just a good ratio for a diluted aqueous hcl acid solution to salt with...In my foafs experience...

regardless how much NP solvent you use.

from what I have heard when using d-limonene it's best not to use lots of h20 at once when salting.... 25ml of aqueous solution is good when using 300ml of d-lomonene, so if your doing 600ml d-limonene pulls use 50ml of acidic aqueous solution... (it's a proven ratio). salt your d-limonene pull 3-4 times before doing another freebase extraction with more d-limonene..

as far as the 4 drops of muriatic acid to 120ml of water goes, make up as much as you need at that ratio..
say add 20 drops to 600ml of dh20......use 25-50ml at a time.

as far as the ph meter goes you use it to check the aqueous layer after you have mixed with the NP and it has seperated, mescaline has a pk of 9.56, so if the ph of the aqueous is 7.56 that means it was low enough to ionize 99% of the mesc.. bonding on to as much as it could that is...might want to aim alittle lower like a ph of 7 to be sure, sometimes ph meters can be kind of waky.

as far as the sulfate goes, I would personally stay away from that (personal opinion I guess), it's alot harder to purify and the sulfate doesnt vaporize away like hcl does, leaving sulfate acid in your final product..

hope this helps.
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#5 Light-Being

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 08:07 PM

Thanks buddy! That is much more like what I was looking for... something he can grip onto.

WRT to the sulfate, naturally people gravitate toward it because it makes a pretty glass-shard like crystal, but my understanding is that it is also easy enough to recrystallize sulfate salts to remove excess H2SO4. I think it is a hot water/cold water reX, no?

If I may toss in another while we're at it: am I understanding correctly that the salt that would be made in this way would be a mix of all alkaloids present in the cactus, and will not isolate mescaline only (he hopes to get the mix, not mesc only)?

Thanks again!

#6 Ferretious

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 02:32 AM

If I may toss in another while we're at it: am I understanding correctly that the salt that would be made in this way would be a mix of all alkaloids present in the cactus, and will not isolate mescaline only (he hopes to get the mix, not mesc only)?

Thanks again!

hcl would probably be better at extracting a fuller spectrum of alkaloids.
Then of course you wont want to wash it with acetone as you will loose some of the alkaloids that are soluble in acetone. this is my intention in my next extraction, hopefully a more "Colorful" experience.
Of course, it still wouldn't compare to the experience of consuming whole cactus, but just the idea of all that snot......!:headbang:

Edited by shroom57, 13 April 2010 - 02:44 PM.
fixed quote


#7 Mr Kush

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 03:57 PM

LB this is a sample of what my FOAF got when using the above ratio-


http://mycotopia.net...38&d=1267906552
to be exact that was-(4 drops of 31.45% hcl to 120ml of dh20)
this photo is right after the water evaporated, no acetone or iso wash ect..

am I understanding correctly that the salt that would be made in this way would be a mix of all alkaloids present in the cactus, and will not isolate mescaline only (he hopes to get the mix, not mesc only)?

No you will not get a full spectrum by salting with a dilute hcl aqueous solution.

however when gassing with hcl it's alot easier to get a "better" spectrum... having h20 in the mix seems to make room for lots of fats (impurities other then alks) making it hard to get a good product not all f'd up with wasteful impurities.

This is a sample from a "gassed" NP alkaloid rich solution-

http://mycotopia.net...39&d=1267906552

It's not perfect as the gas was not completly dry,
however a bio assay deffently proved that it contained more alks (still not a full spectrum) and had "alot" more punch then the previous sample that was titrated.. even the sanchez that you get from titrating doesnt seem to have these alks, but in my FOAF opinion cleaning up the gassed mesc with chilled cold anhydrous acetone then again with chilled anhydrous 99% iso makes the best most powerful extract he has ever done..

If you want a more full spectrum extract there are better ways to go, however the ending result will not be as crystaline. depending on what cacti your working with I would suggest different teks to take advantage of what that specimen has....

but my understanding is that it is also easy enough to recrystallize sulfate salts to remove excess H2SO4. I think it is a hot water/cold water reX, no?


To my understanding no, not with just h20, you would need to perform a dual solvent rextal....

Then of course you wont want to wash it with acetone as you will loose some of the alkaloids that are soluble in acetone. this is my intention in my next extraction, hopefully a more "Colorful" experience.


In my FOAF experience this is not desirable, it doesnt pull a full spectrum and having those other alks that solute into the acetone make it kinda of weird (sleepy), much better to get rid of those imo.... dont get my wrong I love nothing more then working with the spirit/synergy of the cactus but it's just weird lol..

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#8 Ferretious

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 04:39 PM

I'm still gonna do it anyway lol!
69ron on nexus mentions that ther are at least two acetone soluble alkaloids that can "flavour" the experience. One is somewhat sleepy as you mentioned Kush, and the other is more speedy.
69ron says these two alkaloids seem to be more prevalent in San Pedro.:headbang:

#9 Light-Being

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 05:26 PM

Thanks for the additional info, guys. This is really helpful.

Check it out friends, my neighbor's dog has only ever had mescaline once, and it was lab-synthed, not extracted (~350 mg of a HCl salt). And let me tell you, he found it appallingly speedy and not *nearly* psychedelic enough. It felt like 5% mescaline (what he had read it described as, anyway) and 95% SPEED (and no, before anyone suggests it, there was no doubt as to its authenticity or purity). So if there is a way to include any "sleepy" alkaloids, this is exactly what he wants, as he is afraid that for him the true character of mescaline may be like that other stuff (brutally speedy) but he does not want to believe it.

I mean, 2C-B is a thousand times more visual and interesting than this synthetic mesc was! He does not want to let go of the dream that cactus extract can be as magical as mescaline has been described by people like Shulgin. Basically, he fervently hopes that mescaline can be like 2C-B is visually, but combined with some of the empathic/psychedelic feel of MDMA. That is what he dreams of cactus/mescaline being.

Another question: the dog is finding it totally impossible to find food grade CaOH as "pickling lime" in any grocery stores or anywhere else locally. Online it is available of course, but $5 worth of the stuff costs like $14 in shipping, so that is stupid. The question: would "hydrated lime" from the nursery section of a hardware store be okay to use? Is it any less clean than "pickling lime"? They are both the same compound, but the MSDS for hydrated lime shows Mg oxide and a couple other elements in it... and since he is going to the trouble to use a food grade solvent (limonene), it seems like it would be dumb not to make the whole thing food grade.

#10 Mr Kush

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 09:03 PM

69ron on nexus mentions that ther are at least two acetone soluble alkaloids that can "flavour" the experience. One is somewhat sleepy as you mentioned Kush, and the other is more speedy.
69ron says these two alkaloids seem to be more prevalent in San Pedro.


Ferretious-

I am familiar with 69ron's post over at the nexus and I know he states that there are a couple alks that are soluble in the acetone while the mesc is not (I agree), but I have to disagree that san pedro (pachanoi) carries the "speedy" alkaloid... atleast IME...

http://mycotopia.net...50&d=1267926092

The above photo is the pachoni that was sampled (in tea, resin, and crystals..), It was originally standing 15' tall before it was cut.....
pachanoi is my foaf's utmost favorite cactus however it's rare to find them with high alkaloid content....
the bridgessi in my foaf experience is alot more speedy ect..

Either way I would suggest you do houses tek, or phlux's or say the acetate/carbonate salting if you want a more "colorful" experience... your not going to get a wide alkaloid spectrum by titrating with hcl..

Just trying to share with you what I have found with working with the cacti, hopefully it will save trial and error and most of all precious cacti...hope this helps..

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#11 Light-Being

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 10:54 PM

Either way I would suggest you do houses tek, or phlux's or say the acetate/carbonate salting if you want a more "colorful" experience... your not going to get a wide alkaloid spectrum by titrating with hcl..


Well too late for this one, my neighbor's dog Fluffy has started it already, it is in the limonene now. This is a warm-up extraction, you could say. We will see what Fluffy gets from the aqueous HCl path. It is quite a sizeable run at 530g of mixed cactus (the lion's share, 325g, was from a Juul's Giant). So we'll see what turns out.

LB can smell that rank smell of freebased alkaloids very strongly, in fact it stunk up his house like ammonia when he spread out the guacamole on a plastic sheet to dry. He will know next time that it isn't something to do indoors. The strong smell leads him to suspect, optimistically, that a healthy load of alks was based.

#12 Light-Being

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 05:14 PM

Just a little update for those who may be interested:

LB's neighbor's dog is now at a significant phase in this experiment. He extracted from the thoroughly filtered, neon green/yellow basic limonene+alks with the aqueous HCl solution 4 times and is now evaporating the combined number 1 & 2 (acid) extractions. His hopes are high because as he poured them out in a casserole dish to evap, he noticed that it's semi viscous and syrupy. *Something* is definitely in there, and it's water-white so there's no limonene or other contamination.

However, the acid pulls numbers 3 & 4 had a distinct yellowish tinge to them, indicating that the aq HCl was now pulling limonene out. The only reason the dog thinks that might suddenly start happening on the 3rd extraction is that perhaps the first two already pulled out all the alks and thus #3 now was starting to pull out limonene. So #s 3 & 4 were kept separate. Maybe the dog will evap them and see if there is some magic.HCl in there in addition to trace limomene. If so, perhaps a recrystallization will be all that's needed to claim it.

But his eyes are on the main prize now evaporating.

So far, LB's impression of this route is that if a much more fast and efficient way of pressing out the large bulk of cactus/CaOH/limonene glop after each limonene soak could be fashioned, it would greatly enhnace the yield and ease of this method (this time the dog did it the old, slow way with pasta strainer and slow filtration, etc).

At the scale of the current one, ~530g, the cactus/CaOH mass is about the volume of a large thick phone book (or two).

#13 Light-Being

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 05:43 PM

If anyone else is interested in trying this same extraction, at this scale or another, here are the overview and amounts that you can use to do this (or figure the math for smaller or larger scale. Be advised however that larger than this would be a major chore; at this scale it was a handful, sayeth the dog).

Cactus powder: approx 530g
CaOH: matched cactus weight (530g CaOH) (can't help wondering whether a lot less base could be used)

These are mixed together and water slowly added while stirring until a soupy, "runny guacamole" consistency is reached, which facilitates thorough blending. It is stirred by hand until totally homogenous.

The slop is spread out on a thick mil plastic sheet a 1/4 to 1/2 inch thick to dry with a fan pointing at it. WARNING: this WILL stink up your house like ammonia big time. Strongly recommend you do it outdoors. Fortunately, the weather is getting better all the time.

When the stuff is dried out and is like a hard crust, poke at it gently to break it into pellets or chunks. This also should be done outside if possible, as there may be much highly irritating and basic dust raised if you're not careful. You don't want this dust in your house with you.

This dried cactus/CaOH material is now extracted with d-limonene. At this scale, it took about 2.5 liters (or more) of limonene to saturate and immerse the material for the first one. The second and third extractions will take less since at this point the cactus/CaOH is saturated and is not thirstily absorbing limonene as the initial one did. The second and third were about 1.2L limonene each.

Each of the limonene pulls must be filtered well. If you have a Buchner setup, this will make it a lot faster. Otherwise, a stepped filtration scheme works well, e.g. pasta strainer for coarse/bulk, then coffee filter, then double layer paper towel, and finally through a couple of inches of cotton ball in the funnel stem under a paper towel. This will get you to a clear neon yellow solution that is virtually particle-free (close enough anyway).

With a big thank-you to Mr. Kush, the aqueous HCl solution used to extract from the approximately 2000mL of neon cocktail was 166 mL (each wash/pull) of a solution of 4 drops muriatic to each 120 mL dH2O used. As Kush shared above, the amount used was figured at a fixed ratio of 25 mL HCl solution used for each 300 mL of limonene/alks pulled from.

To make it easy, I just made more than I would need by adding 32 drops muriatic to 960 mL dH2O.

More soon!

#14 Light-Being

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 05:49 PM

Well, the dog reports that the extraction was successful, though very low-yielding. The product yielded, however, is awesome looking (mother-of-pearl lacy looking thin sheets of reX HCl salt).

He reports that the pulls were contam'd by excess HCl, suggesting that maybe something was off since that was supposed to be a proven ratio.

Doesn't matter however, as he finds it to be too wasteful limonene-wise since limonene is good for so many other things. Also, he reported that pulls #3 and #4 of HCl-water were contam'd by limonene so he doesn't like this route, especially considering that the cactus doesn't get dissolved by the CaOH as NaOH can do (which seems key to high yield extraction).

The dog plans to try the NaOH/xylol/citric acid way next. Yes xylene stinks and is toxic, but so is life in the USA...
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#15 golord

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 02:28 PM

swim says "sound like "dog" should try using white vinegar for the acid as mesc-acetate has all the other alkys and is more absorb-able to the body and comes on a lot quicker about 20 mins instead of 2hours. also has several phases, so its more a interesting journey( at least in swims experience). also if you do go the d-limonene way with it it is totally non-toxic yay!"
btw - swim says "no need to dilute the vinegar, just use 25ml for every pull and everything will work out just dandy"
btw2- swim says "the final product will be brown, sticky, and wax-like. Swim personally find it to be about 20% more potent than hcl( this was drawn from several doses experience+ ph testing my urine as almost half of hcl is pissed out never being absorbed, and only about 30% with acetate"

hope this was helpful

Edited by golord, 13 April 2010 - 02:50 PM.


#16 golord

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 02:48 PM

swim says he also really enjoyed mixing mesc-hcl crystals into the mesc-acetate together, 275mg acetate to 150mg hcl is his personal favorite ratio

#17 Frequency

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 07:54 PM

Archive Material! Nice full experiment and very informative. :thumbup:

Great work Mr.Kush and Light-Being




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