Paradox
©
Fisana

Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

IMPORTANT SAFETY ADVICE FOR ALL EXTRACTORS!!!


  • Please log in to reply
46 replies to this topic

#1 opiatoker

opiatoker

    gizmologist

  • Free Member
  • 523 posts

Posted 24 March 2010 - 10:08 PM

Hey all you topiates!!

I have read many great and helpful pieces of advice here at the Topia, but I have never read about the "what if..." factor.

Several years ago, when I was being taught how to basify and pull an alkaloid out of one solution and into another, I was first taught about the most important tool, that hopefully I would never have to use.

Well, as it turns out, I have had to make much use out of it, and wouldn't think of extracting anything without having it within arms reach.

curious yet???


PLEASE take my advice regardless who says what. If anyone tries to say that I am wrong, then they are the people you should NEVER take advice from.

Get an empty spray bottle, put a few tablespoons of baking soda into it, and fill it with water. shake it up. and have it ready by your side any, and every time you will be using any HCL, sulfuric, and or NaOH. it will stop the acids from burning a deeper hole into your carpet, and it will stop the NaOH from burning a deeper hole into your arm. Believe me, I am speaking from experience.

Please take this advice, you will thank me for it.
  • Caljet666, roscoe, ggod and 1 other like this

#2 roscoe

roscoe

    Not a mycologist.

  • OG VIP
  • 2,826 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 24 March 2010 - 10:32 PM

this is a very important topic. i thank you for bringing it up.

if opiatetaker does not mind, i think this would be a good place to post any safety knowledge pertaining to our hobbies.:eusa_clap

#3 whatchamacallit

whatchamacallit

    Former Member

  • Banned Member
  • 2,086 posts

Posted 24 March 2010 - 10:32 PM

Vinegar works well for neutralizing the lye, too.

#4 Guest_cap_*

Guest_cap_*
  • Guest

Posted 24 March 2010 - 10:35 PM

Get an empty spray bottle, put a few tablespoons of baking soda into it, and fill it with water. shake it up. and have it ready by your side any, and every time you will be using any HCL, sulfuric, and or NaOH. it will stop the acids from burning a deeper hole into your carpet, and it will stop the NaOH from burning a deeper hole into your arm. Believe me, I am speaking from experience.

basifying fresh lye burn? no shit! that had to hurt! did the hole in your arm ever heal?
maybe it would have not made a hole had you had acid on hand.
:)
to neutralize the HCl burn, great. sure.
but afoaf always used a bottle of vinegar as a standby,
when workin with sodium/potassium hydroxide (naoh/koh,respectively)
not sodium bicarbonate.

PLEASE take my advice regardless who says what. If anyone tries to say that I am wrong, then they are the people you should NEVER take advice from.

is that so...

#5 Phineas_Carmichael

Phineas_Carmichael

    Hooloovoo

  • Honorary Former Staff
  • 2,914 posts

Posted 24 March 2010 - 10:43 PM

Vinegar is probably better at neutralizing lye burn, but baking soda will do it too. Sodium Bicarbonate is amphoteric, meaning it will react with both acids and bases.

#6 Guest_cap_*

Guest_cap_*
  • Guest

Posted 24 March 2010 - 10:45 PM

Vinegar is probably better at neutralizing lye burn, but baking soda will do it too. Sodium Bicarbonate is amphoteric, meaning it will react with both acids and bases.

doesnt that mean itll only neutralize as good as standard city tap water which ranges from 7 to 8, anyway??? baking soda has a pH of 8.3 or something like that. am i wrong? :confused: i cant speak from experience,
cuz i never spilled lye on myself or anything lol

#7 Phineas_Carmichael

Phineas_Carmichael

    Hooloovoo

  • Honorary Former Staff
  • 2,914 posts

Posted 24 March 2010 - 11:14 PM

doesnt that mean itll only neutralize as good as standard city tap water which ranges from 7 to 8, anyway??? baking soda has a pH of 8.3 or something like that. am i wrong? :confused: i cant speak from experience,
cuz i never spilled lye on myself or anything lol

I haven't either, thank G-d. I just got excited about a new vocabulary word, "amphoteric" :shy: I fully intend to run a home-chemistry experiment tomorrow to test if NaHCO3 will neutralize acids and bases as wikipedia says. Opiatoker, can I hijack your thread with my results, or should I post another?

Experimental design:
-Stock solutions of pH 4 and pH 12 will be created by mixing distilled H2O with 37% HCl and crystalline NaOH, respectively
-A nearly-saturated NaHCO3 solution will be created by mixing 70g NaHCO3 with 1000mL of d-H2O
-Samples of acidic and basic solutions will be treated with NaHCO3 solution and before and after pH recorded.
-A control group will be treated with tap water and the before and after pH recorded.

Expectations:
If Wikipedia is to be trusted, the baking soda solution should neutralize both acidic and basic solutions more efficiently than tap water. My hypothesis in this experiment is that NaHCO3 solution will bring the pH of acids and bases closer to 7 than tap water alone.

EDIT: It's not bed-time yet *sigh* so I'm going to run this tonight. I probably won't be able to sleep until I know anyway... Damn my scientific mind! Expect results within 1 hour...

Edited by Phineas_Carmichael, 24 March 2010 - 11:17 PM.
Can't sleep until I know!


#8 opiatoker

opiatoker

    gizmologist

  • Free Member
  • 523 posts

Posted 24 March 2010 - 11:15 PM

doesnt that mean itll only neutralize as good as standard city tap water which ranges from 7 to 8, anyway??? baking soda has a pH of 8.3 or something like that. am i wrong? :confused: i cant speak from experience,
cuz i never spilled lye on myself or anything lol

you may be right. but 8.3 will instantly stop the burn of a 14ph drop of water. instant.

and yes, the holes have all healed. the biggest reminder is the 1/4" scar that is on the knuckle where my ring finger touches my birdy finger. yeah, it burned deep and fast. and was stopped with a quick squirt.

i don't like vinegar because if you get vinegar into a cut or anything like that it burns bad. baking soda soothes it.

baking soda also does not have any odor compared to the foul vinegar smell..

baking soda is best for it.

then once it stopped the burning reaction flush heavily with water. of course.

#9 opiatoker

opiatoker

    gizmologist

  • Free Member
  • 523 posts

Posted 24 March 2010 - 11:21 PM

I haven't either, thank G-d. I just got excited about a new vocabulary word, "amphoteric" :shy: I fully intend to run a home-chemistry experiment tomorrow to test if NaHCO3 will neutralize acids and bases as wikipedia says. Opiatoker, can I hijack your thread with my results, or should I post another?

Experimental design:
-Stock solutions of pH 4 and pH 12 will be created by mixing distilled H2O with 37% HCl and crystalline NaOH, respectively
-A nearly-saturated NaHCO3 solution will be created by mixing 70g NaHCO3 with 1000mL of d-H2O
-Samples of acidic and basic solutions will be treated with NaHCO3 solution and before and after pH recorded.
-A control group will be treated with tap water and the before and after pH recorded.

Expectations:
If Wikipedia is to be trusted, the baking soda solution should neutralize both acidic and basic solutions more efficiently than tap water. My hypothesis in this experiment is that NaHCO3 solution will bring the pH of acids and bases closer to 7 than tap water alone.

EDIT: It's not bed-time yet *sigh* so I'm going to run this tonight. I probably won't be able to sleep until I know anyway... Damn my scientific mind! Expect results within 1 hour...

be sure to only use the same amount of water as you use water with baking soda in solution. because of course a lot of water will wash away the acid / alkaline. do a drop of each.

i will be interested to see myself. i know that when washing the basic water solution off hands, or hcl, or even bleach, it leaves the hands feeling slimy, which is actually your skin being melted away, and if washed with baking soda, it doesn't get slimy at all.

#10 opiatoker

opiatoker

    gizmologist

  • Free Member
  • 523 posts

Posted 24 March 2010 - 11:24 PM

basifying fresh lye burn? no shit! that had to hurt! did the hole in your arm ever heal?
maybe it would have not made a hole had you had acid on hand.
:)
to neutralize the HCl burn, great. sure.
but afoaf always used a bottle of vinegar as a standby,
when workin with sodium/potassium hydroxide (naoh/koh,respectively)
not sodium bicarbonate.

is that so...








yes

#11 Phineas_Carmichael

Phineas_Carmichael

    Hooloovoo

  • Honorary Former Staff
  • 2,914 posts

Posted 25 March 2010 - 01:12 AM

Stock:
-pH 3.3 solution created with 37% HCl + d-H2O
-pH 13.6 solution created with granulated NaOH + d-H2O
-pH 9.2 Sodium Bicarbonate solution created with 65g NaHCO3 & 800mL d-H2O
-pH 9.0 Tap water

Procedure:
-100mL stock solutions were treated with either 200mL of NaHCO3 solution or 200mL of tap water.
-Sample size; 4 groups, 1 jar in each group. [it is nearly sleepy-time]

Results:
Sample 1: Acid treated with NaHCO3 solution
--pH before 3.3
--pH after 9.0
Sample 2: Acid treated with tap water
--pH before 3.3
--pH after 3.5
Sample 3: Base treated with NaHCO3 solution
--pH before 13.6
--pH after 11.1
Sample 4: Base treated with tap water
--pH before 13.6
--pH after 13.5

Summary:
Baking soda solution, in 2:1 ratio neutralizes acid and bases more efficiently than tap water does. This experiment practically screams for replication, though. I didn't use nearly enough samples to make it definitive, and my pH meter is a cheap[but better than Litmus] instrument. However, the data lines up with my hypothesis and I am willing to call these results "proof of concept."

The next experiment is to compare NaHCO3 and Vinegar side by side in neutralizing a basic solution to see just how much better vinegar is... The mind-boggling beauty here in my opinion is that bicarb seems to neutralize both solutions!:greenboun

Sorry it took so long, washing glassware & writing up the results was more of a chore than I anticipated...

i know that when washing the basic water solution off hands, or hcl, or even bleach , it leaves the hands feeling slimy, which is actually your skin being melted away,

Scientifically, the slimy-ness is a result of high pH denaturing the proteins that skin is composed of. :puke:

Opiatoker, thanks for giving me an excuse to geek out tonight :teeth:

Edited by Phineas_Carmichael, 25 March 2010 - 01:21 AM.
Spelling and small addition

  • Frequency, SilvrHairDevil, ou3308 and 1 other like this

#12 Guest_cap_*

Guest_cap_*
  • Guest

Posted 25 March 2010 - 12:41 PM

thanks phineas

ill eat my hat when i see it beat some acetic acid. :D

#13 opiatoker

opiatoker

    gizmologist

  • Free Member
  • 523 posts

Posted 25 March 2010 - 02:57 PM

thanks phineas

ill eat my hat when i see it beat some acetic acid. :D

acetic acid may neutralize bases just as well as sodium bicarbonate, but i guarantee if you got burned with lye and put vinegar on it to stop the burn you'll wish you weren't too thick skulled to use the method i described. vinegar BURNS flesh wounds. bicarb soothes them. unless you have a fetish for pain, i'd not be so thick headed.

furthermore, after reading phineas original post, i decided to look it up on wiki, and as it turns out, the method i was taught so many years ago, is standard laboratory procedure. baking soda. not vinegar.

and i may be mistaken (i'm not) but i'm pretty sure that pouring some acetic acid onto some hcl or sulfuric that is burning a hole through something, really won't stop it. may slow it down a little while creating some strong gaseous odors, but it will not stop it dead as the bicarbonate will.

you'd prefer to have both rather than just the one which covers all?? makes no sense at all.

Edited by opiatoker, 25 March 2010 - 03:08 PM.

  • Shadowlord likes this

#14 psilocypher

psilocypher

    Deceased

  • Expired Member
  • 435 posts

Posted 25 March 2010 - 03:22 PM

Cap...Your avatar is just simply stunning!

:)

#15 Phineas_Carmichael

Phineas_Carmichael

    Hooloovoo

  • Honorary Former Staff
  • 2,914 posts

Posted 25 March 2010 - 04:16 PM

acetic acid may neutralize bases just as well as sodium bicarbonate, but i guarantee if you got burned with lye and put vinegar on it to stop the burn you'll wish you weren't too thick skulled to use the method i described. vinegar BURNS flesh wounds. bicarb soothes them. unless you have a fetish for pain, i'd not be so thick headed.

Confirmed. 25mg of crystalline NaOH was placed on the back of each of my hands. 1 drop[~.05mL] d-H2O was added and the resulting solution allowed to sit for 10 seconds. After 10 excruciating seconds, the burn site was rinsed with 1mL of 5% vinegar or 1mL of the previously mentioned bicarb solution over 10 seconds. 10 more seconds were allowed to elapse before the site was rinsed copiously under running water. Total testing time=30 seconds per site.

Both solutions immediately soothed the excruciating pain of a self-inflicted chemical burn, but the 10 seconds of waiting after the neutralization agent was applied were much more pleasant when NaHCO3 was used. The vinegar site continued to burn until the final rinse began.

Hands were washed with soap and water, dried, and first-aid applied before beginning this write-up. Both hands look similar and bear a small welt, but the hand rinsed with vinegar is still mildly painful, while the bicarb hand feels just fine. I regret that there is no way to scientifically quantify these results, but I know how I'll be neutralizing hypothetical flesh spills in the future.

I never plan to need a neutralizing agent, but I never plan to use my fire extinguisher, either. It's nice to know that there's a way to neutralize a caustic spill without adding extra pain. Not to mention the fact that one solution will neutralize caustic and acidic spills. Gotta get me a spray bottle to sit in the rack with the fire extinguisher. Thanks for the great info, opiatoker! Rep+

This was an exceedingly stupid thing to test, but I just had to know. You all know what they say about curiosity and cats...

the_difference.png
Why I do stupid shit like this, from xkcd.com
  • suckerfree likes this

#16 Caljet666

Caljet666

    Dumbass

  • Expired Member
  • 368 posts

Posted 25 March 2010 - 04:24 PM

Vinegar doesn't really "BURN" flesh wounds although it does sting a little, and I don't think Cap ever endorsed it for HCl or H2SO4.

Having said all that, I never knew that NaHCO3 would lower the pH of strong alkaline solutions so I guess I could see the benifit of having it around although I'll stick to using vinegar until it's proven that NaHCO3 does a better job.

I would like to add here that protective gear like long gloves, goggles/face shield, etc is more important. Prevention rather than cure.


EDIT: Missed that post above. Looks promising.
  • Phineas_Carmichael likes this

#17 whatchamacallit

whatchamacallit

    Former Member

  • Banned Member
  • 2,086 posts

Posted 25 March 2010 - 04:44 PM

Sodium bicarbonate will lower the pH of strong bases and raise the pH of any acid, but I am not sure that it is any better at stopping a lye burn than vinegar.

I'd advise that people wear a $3 pair of solvent gloves when handling solvents and/or lye or acids. If one accidentally spills lye on their skin, they should immediately brush it off with a dy towel, then run their hand under water for at least 5-15 minutes until they rinse away the slimy feeling.

Vinegar can be used to rinse it after the dry lye has been brushed off with a dry towel, but even then, one should rinse the area well with water. As long as it is done quickly, it will not eat far into the skin. Please don't be mistaken, one little crumb of undetected lye will begin to burn, and will only get worse if left untreated.

Please wear safety goggles, solvent gloves, and long sleeves, pants and shoes, when extracting. That way if there are any accidents, you will be protected. Always have a sink or shower with running water near by, have a chemical fire extinguisher near by, and do not have any gas powered appliances with a pilot light near any place you are using solvents. Proper ventilation is a must, as well. All of these things should be available when extracting anything.

Butane extracting should be done outside, especially. I can't tell you how many people I know who have extracted butane in their house, and forgot about a pilot light or something, and had a huge fireball explosion in their homes. Several with bad burns, so please do not use butane indoors, or where there could be any possible electrical or flame spark, as it can end with terrible results.

Also, I'd suggest working on only hard tile or concrete floors because any spills can be cleaned up much easier. The stuff will ruin your carpets. Using any glass that is not for chemical reactions can be dangerous, especially with strong basic solutions, and when heating and cooling will occur.

SWIM has had huge jars of lye and mimosa water break all over his kitchen floor. Luckily he was able to clean it up on the tile, but it was a huge, dangerous, nasty mess. Had he not been wearing shoes or something it could have been painful..

These chemicals are every day household chemicals, but that does not mean they are SAFE by any means. They are dangerous and should be treated with caution.. Prevention goes a long way!!
  • real_psily and Phineas_Carmichael like this

#18 Guest_cap_*

Guest_cap_*
  • Guest

Posted 25 March 2010 - 08:37 PM

Cap...Your avatar is just simply stunning!

:)

thanks its some old pic i found of some honey hash i made.

#19 Guest_cap_*

Guest_cap_*
  • Guest

Posted 25 March 2010 - 08:42 PM

Vinegar doesn't really "BURN" flesh wounds although it does sting a little, and I don't think Cap ever endorsed it for HCl or H2SO4.

Having said all that, I never knew that NaHCO3 would lower the pH of strong alkaline solutions so I guess I could see the benifit of having it around although I'll stick to using vinegar until it's proven that NaHCO3 does a better job.

I would like to add here that protective gear like long gloves, goggles/face shield, etc is more important. Prevention rather than cure.


EDIT: Missed that post above. Looks promising.

i have to say also i will be using it as well. thanks for the enlightenment, and its not a waste of time to do experiments that could help many folks.

at least we can conclude not to throw tap water on lye burn :lol:

all this meddling has made me hungry....time to cook.....dinner :D

ps- always drop acid into water, not water into acid. till i smoke and fire my mind up again thats all i got to contribute that hasnt already been stated, and is the first thing u learn in ANY intro to chem class.

Edited by cap, 25 March 2010 - 08:48 PM.
ps


#20 opiatoker

opiatoker

    gizmologist

  • Free Member
  • 523 posts

Posted 26 March 2010 - 05:38 AM

Confirmed. 25mg of crystalline NaOH was placed on the back of each of my hands. 1 drop[~.05mL] d-H2O was added and the resulting solution allowed to sit for 10 seconds. After 10 excruciating seconds, the burn site was rinsed with 1mL of 5% vinegar or 1mL of the previously mentioned bicarb solution over 10 seconds. 10 more seconds were allowed to elapse before the site was rinsed copiously under running water. Total testing time=30 seconds per site.

Both solutions immediately soothed the excruciating pain of a self-inflicted chemical burn, but the 10 seconds of waiting after the neutralization agent was applied were much more pleasant when NaHCO3 was used. The vinegar site continued to burn until the final rinse began.

Hands were washed with soap and water, dried, and first-aid applied before beginning this write-up. Both hands look similar and bear a small welt, but the hand rinsed with vinegar is still mildly painful, while the bicarb hand feels just fine. I regret that there is no way to scientifically quantify these results, but I know how I'll be neutralizing hypothetical flesh spills in the future.

I never plan to need a neutralizing agent, but I never plan to use my fire extinguisher, either. It's nice to know that there's a way to neutralize a caustic spill without adding extra pain. Not to mention the fact that one solution will neutralize caustic and acidic spills. Gotta get me a spray bottle to sit in the rack with the fire extinguisher. Thanks for the great info, opiatoker! Rep+

This was an exceedingly stupid thing to test, but I just had to know. You all know what they say about curiosity and cats...

the_difference.png
Why I do stupid shit like this, from xkcd.com


awesome. you are brave. I've actually put some friends through similar treatment several years ago. They just wanted to be there when i was doing my experiments, and i figured if i had to go through the work, and feel the pain of making an error, why should they learn for free... ha ha!! yeah, they were pissed once they realized what that drop of water was about to do. and then again, they were very thankful once they got the squirt of bicarb solution.




Like Mycotopia? Become a member today!