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#1 LethalTr1p

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 02:59 AM

Locally, I can pick a few bagged composts/manures up. I can't get my hands on any of the brands working for members here, so i have some questions.

A steer is a cow, yes? is steer and cow manure the same? will starting with and buffering steer manure be a good place to start.

I can also get poultry manure compost, but I have heard thats only good for supplementation.

One that really got my attention was labelled "Mushroom Compost Blend". The back of the bag said it was recycled from the compost used for commercial mushroom farms, and then mixed with fresh poulty manure compost. Would using something like that cause a problem seeing as its been over run with mycellium of some kinda edible already?

Almost all of them listed were npk .5,.5,.5.

Or do i need to keep looking for real cow shit (or at least "Cow Manure"), and not some derivative.

#2 siam_jim

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 08:59 AM

cow,steer yes the same.. and use that or horse poo. for chicken...i have not even heard of anyone even using that except for growing paddy straw mushrooms. go get it from your local place there when you get it give it a good leeching and a bleach treatment! don't get the fresh..go for the one thats dried out//it better imo and less messy...oh don't forget the lime
peace
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#3 python

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 09:38 AM

ya cow, horse, worm is good

#4 doobydoobydoo

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 01:10 PM

I can also get poultry manure compost, but I have heard thats only good for supplementation.

One that really got my attention was labelled "Mushroom Compost Blend". The back of the bag said it was recycled from the compost used for commercial mushroom farms, and then mixed with fresh poulty manure compost. Would using something like that cause a problem seeing as its been over run with mycellium of some kinda edible already?


Mushroom compost is just that. Compost used previously to grow mushrooms. NOT GOOD to grow your mushies on. But good for spreading around the yard/garden/shrubs. You don't want to use it for further mushroom growing.

Poultry also sucks pretty much for mushrooms. You want something made mainly from straw's/grasses and composted down. Cow's eat mainly that and crap out partially digested patties. The cow breaks it down partially, but you can still find some grasses and things in it. Same with horses. Very easy to see with horses. Airly grassey-like plops. hehehe The compost that I use, takes the cow crap, and just composts it down further. Just as I would do in a big compost pile myself. Many "composts" will just compost all sorts of things down and call it compost. It maybe compost, but might not be what you are looking for. Try to find cow or horse manure composted down (many with straw added to it) (many farms/stables have huge compost piles like this cuz they just get so much shit, littlerly. hehe)

I'd give that steer stuff a shot.

#5 python

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 02:04 PM

and leech you manure friend

#6 doobydoobydoo

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 06:29 PM

and leech you manure friend


manure or compost? there is a difference.

#7 LethalTr1p

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 06:46 PM

sweet. this stuff is cheap so i'll pick up a bag soon and give it a shot. thanx for the advice. wether it goes well or not i'll post a log with the brand and everything else.

#8 doobydoobydoo

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 07:44 PM

That's a good idea. I think we should try to get some store bought compost/poo information together for the archives. See what stuff people are having success with and what stuff people are not. There's gotta be dozens of brands around from all over different regions.

#9 reverend trips

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 07:46 PM

Here's some good info on spent mushroom compost:
http://mushroomspawn...u.edu/Spent.htm
SPENT MUSHROOM SUBSTRATE FACT SHEET
Spent mushroom substrate is the soil-like material remaining after a crop of mushrooms. Spent substrate is high in organic matter making it desirable for use as a soil amendment or soil conditioner. Sometimes this material is called spent mushroom compost. This fact sheet briefly explains mushroom growing, so that the reader knows what is in the prepared substrate, and then describes the characteristics and possible uses of the material.

Mushroom Growing
Substrate prepared specifically for growing mushrooms is a blend of natural products. Common ingredients are wheat straw bedding containing horse manure, hay, corn cobs, cottonseed hulls, poultry manure, brewer's grain, cottonseed meal, cocoa bean hulls and gypsum. Growers may add ground soybeans or seed meal supplements later in the production cycle. On top of the substrate, farmers apply a "casing" layer, which is a mixture of peat moss and ground limestone. The casing material provides support for the growing mushrooms.
Spent mushroom substrate still has some nutrients available for the mushroom; however, it is more economical to replace the substrate and start a new crop. Before removing the spent substrate from the mushroom house, the grower "pasteurizes" it with steam to kill any pests or pathogens that may be present in the substrate and casing. This final pasteurization kills weed seeds, insects, and organisms that may cause mushroom diseases. Users may consider spent substrate clean of weed seeds and insects.

Mushroom growers sometimes apply a registered pesticide during the crop cycle. The local garden center sells most of the same pesticides a mushroom farmer uses. Even if pesticides have been applied, they are generally hard to find for two reasons. Organic matter in the substrate effectively binds pesticides. Also, these compounds decompose rapidly at the high temperatures used for pasteurizing the completed crop. It is safe to assume that the pesticide residue on spent substrate is low. Some farms are strictly "organic" and will not use chemical pesticides. These farms can be identified by contacting your Cooperative Extension office.

Characteristics of Spent Mushroom Substrate
The typical composition of spent mushroom substrate fresh from a mushroom house will vary slightly. Since raw materials and other cultural practices change, each load of fresh spent substrate has a slightly different element and mineral analysis. Therefore the characteristics shown in Table I indicate a range of values for each component. Sometimes, fresh substrate is placed in fields for at least one winter season and then marketed as "weathered" mushroom soil. This aged material has slightly different characteristics because the microbial activity in the field will change the composition and texture. The salt content may change during the aging period. If you have any specific questions concerning characteristics of either fresh or aged spent substrate, please contact your local Cooperative Extension agent.
Appropriate Uses of Spent Substrate
There are many appropriate uses for spent mushroom substrate. Spent mushroom substrate is excellent to spread on top of newly seeded lawns. The material provides cover against birds eating the seeds and will hold the water in the soil while the seeds germinate. Since some plants and garden vegetables are sensitive to high salt content in soils, avoid using fresh spent substrate around those plants. You may use spent substrate weathered for 6 months or longer in all gardens and with most plants. Obtaining spent substrate in the fall and winter, allowing it to weather, will make it ready to use in a garden the following spring. Spring and summer are the best time to use weathered material as a mulch.
As a soil amendment, spent substrate adds organic matter and structure to the soil. Spent substrate primarily improves soil structure and it does provide a few nutrients. Spent substrate is the choice ingredient by those companies making the potting mixtures sold in supermarkets or garden centers. These companies use spent substrate when they need a material to enhance the structure of a soil.

AVERAGE ANALYSIS of SPENT MUSHROOM SUBSTRATE
Contents Units Avg. Fresh Weathered 16 mos.
Sodium, Na % Dry Wt. 0.21 - 0.33 0.06
Potassium, K % Dry Wt. 1.93 - 2.58 0.43
Magnesium, Mg % Dry Wt. 0.45 - 0.82 0.88
Calcium, Ca % Dry Wt. 3.63 - 5.15 6.27
Aluminum, Al % Dry Wt. 0.17 -0.28 0.58
Iron, Fe % Dry Wt. 0.18 - 0.34 0.58
Phosphorus, P % Dry Wt. 0.45 - 0.69 0.84
Ammonia-N,NH4 % Dry Wt. 0.06 -0.24 0.00
Organic Nitrogen % Dry Wt. 1.25 - 2.15 2.72
Total Nitrogen % Dry Wt. 1.42 - 2.05 2.72
Solids % Dry Wt. 33.07 - 40.26 53.47
Volatile Solids % Dry Wt. 52.49 - 72.42 54.24
pH Standard Units 5.8 - 7.7 7.1
N-P-K ratio PPM Dry Wt. 1.8 - 0.6 - 2.2 2.7 - 0.8 - 0.47
% x 10,000 = PPM

#10 Hippie3

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 07:58 PM

nice info

#11 Master_Shake

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 02:33 AM

do you have to do anything to wormcastings?

#12 Hippie3

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 07:33 PM

pasteurize and hydrate is about all.

#13 Hippie3

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 08:45 AM

This is from "The Rodale Book of Composting"-Horse Manure-
Horse manure is richer in nitrogen than cattle or swine manure and, like chicken droppings ,is called a hot manure.
It is also much more prone to fermentation or "fire-fanging", a fairly rapid oxidation that destroys nutrients.
Some farmers water horse manure to prevent fire-fanging, but leaching can occur if too much water is added
.When using horse manure in the compost pile, mix it with other manures or with large quantities of high carbon materials,
and add moisture.
Horse owners tend to bed their animals extremely well, so stable manure is often largely wood shavings
or straw with a small amount of manure mixed in.
In these cases, horse manure can be combined with other manures to correct the carbon/nitrogen ratio.
Horse manure also prevents the harmful action of denitrifying bacteria.

-Cattle Manure-
Cattle manure is moister and less concentrated than that of other large animals.
Because of its high water contents it ferments slowly and is commonly called a cold manure.
Because of their complex digestive systems, cows produce manure that is especially rich in beneficial microorganisms



#14 SharkieJones

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 09:53 AM

I prefer horse myself to cow. Seems quicker.

#15 statikal

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 11:05 AM

So which is the best to use on it's own?

#16 roc

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 11:56 AM

From my experience I have better results from hpoo.
With that said I also have an observation... the hot shit comes in on both hpoo and cpoo if they are in a confined area, meaning horse stall or dairy barn/feedlot, because in those confined areas they also piss in the shit and straw/bedding and eventually it ALL gets hauled to the pile. This is where the Captn and others are correct about the need to compost before use.

I keep refering to what I call "field" shit because I have picked up both cpoo and hpoo from the field and don't have the "HOT" problem. The animals on range or fields produce pure shit with only the digested grass,hay, etc in the patties and if the patties have been in the field until they are light,dry, and naturally composted then they both seem tro work well.

I have noticed that field cpoo patties are a lot tighter grain than hpoo but that is due to the difference of the digestive system in the two animals. I have had good results with field cpoo but one must keep it nice and loose to simulate the natural grain of hpoo. How many stomachs does a cow have versus a horse.

Bottom line is contained animal shit must be composted but field shit needs to only be sun dried with maybe a little moist center when one breaks open the patty.

I still like hpoo the best and think the stool donkey stuff may be as well or better.

#17 Hippie3

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 11:19 AM

my donkey dude also has goats,
wonder if adding some goat droppings
to the donkey dung with some straw
then composting
would make a good blend .

gotta get some worms going too...


i found that snippet about firefang interesting,
"fermentation or "fire-fanging", a fairly rapid oxidation that destroys nutrients.".
perhaps that rapid decay in nutes
turns 'hot' horse manure into useable substrate.
also see
firefang in horse manure

#18 Hippie3

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 09:46 AM

So which is the best to use on it's own?


well, i've seen plenty of grows using both cow and horse
and both do very well.

in theory cow should be 'better'
as their digestive track is better suited than a horse's
for plain grass/straw.

but many growers prefer horse,
i suspect the higher N content might be why,
as some think extra N boosts potency
but there is no hard evidence of that.

cow can be used faster,
horse is too 'hot' and so must be aged/leached.
perhaps a blend might be best.

one should consider also
that in the wild
one often sees cubies close to cowpies
but seldom on horse.
that likely is because of the 'hotness' of the hpoo
but it argues as well
that cubies may be better adapted now to cow manure.

ultimately though
use which ever you can get, either works great.

#19 max

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 10:27 AM

I believe firefang is a GOOD thing, it is a part of the composting process and major commercial operations use compost, not dried patties. Firefang is eventually consumed by mushroom mycelia. Here is an interesting post from 'another site'...

HERE IS WHY "BULK" SUBSTRATES ARE FAR BETTER.

Straight Grain, WBS, Wheat straw, BRF/Verm or combinations of those DO NOT contain dead cells of thermophilic microbes, various bacteria, and actinomycetes "firefang", which are the very things that deliver OPTIMAL protein, fat (lipids) & micro-nutrients components (Chitin - for instance) to the mushroom.

Bulk substrates, on the other hand, contain a very high percentage, and variety those benifical (dead) microbes.

Moreover, lesser substrates contain very little nitrogen, while Bulk substrates contain significant amounts of nitrogen.

A positive correlation of substrate nitrogen and yield has been well proven in commercial edible?s cultivation. The greater the nitrogen content (up to a certain point), the higher the yield. And, in the case of P. Cubensis (arguably) delivering far higher potency.

Furthermore, there is the matter of "digestibility".

P. Cubensis excrete a complex array of genetically predetermined enzymes in order to digest substrate nutrients. Those enzymes degrade nutrients into simple soluble forms of sugars, amino acids, lipids & micro-nutrient components which are easily absorbed into the mycelia network, thereby producing optimal yields under good environmental conditions.

Optimal Bulk substrates (1. compost, 2. h/poo & 3. quasi-compost manure/wheat straw combinations) are highly biodegraded. Excepting the wheat straw component in 3 above. However, the manure content of manure/wheat straw combination, impart makes up that deficiency.

Consequently, Bulk substrates have an optimal biodegraded composition, which holds moisture, and is easily digested by the mycelium network, giving it the ability to produce optimal yields, given good environmental conditions.

Conversely, lesser substrates are not generally biodegraded in any way. Which means a mycelium network has to work harder to emit more extracellular enzymes to degrade that material into digestible form. Which is most often not as nutritious as Bulk substrates - overall.

Some will argue that, things like BRF, Rye, WBS is easily digested by mycelium.

In the cased of BRF, it is a fact that BRF type PF cake jars, colonize much slower that do seed/grain spawn. Why is that? Answer, the nutrient composition is not optimal.

Ideally prepared seed/grain spawn jars generally colonize quickly. However, that is somewhat deceptive. As, while the seed grain exterior is colonized rather rapidly, it takes much longer for the mycelium to actually penetrate to the interior of the seed grain, and digest the nutrients there.

That is why seed/grain spawn is considered to provide delayed release nutrients, to a Bulk substrate. And/or why sterilized grain additives (SpawnMate for instance) are added to a Bulk substrate (as a delayed release nutrient) at the same time colonized seed/grain spawn is.

What it all comes down to is, Rye, WBS, BRF lack significant - quickly digestible fiber & nitrogen, as well as beneficial (dead) microbial content.

Wheat Straw (uncomposted) lacks nitrogen, (dead) microbial content, is high in fiber, but because it is not biodegraded, is consequently difficult for mycelium to digest. Nor, will it hold an optimal moisture content, over any extended period.

Plainly stated, certainly various individual nutrients are effective, and will produce fruits. However, it takes a high degree of diversity, biodegraded fiber, airy texture composition, and the ability to absorb, and hold a high degree of moisture, for a substrate to be optimal.

For instance, sugar is a nutrient. However, If YOU had only sugar to eat, it would have adverse affects on you. The same goes for mushrooms.

Mycelium requires a diverse diet, high in numerous types of nutrients, with a certain texture, composition, moisture absorption & retention capacity ? to be OPTIMAL.

Anything LESS than OPTIMAL will result in adverse effects, and poor to mediocre yields.

That is why the BULK substrates referred to above are FAR BETTER than the lesser substrates mentioned.

#20 roc

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 05:33 PM

Excellant read Cap Max!




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