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Genocide and human sacrifice in the OT


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#1 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 26 April 2004 - 09:11 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

There are churches that welcome all people and respect all viewpoints. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
sure,
that's to get you in the door,
so the real work can begin,
re-programming.

#2 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 26 April 2004 - 09:19 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

You decided to come here and be born, did you not?

What have you found in your personal experiances?
<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
i can't recall right now exactly why i volunteered for this mission.
but what i have learned here so far
mainly
is that i must have compassion and mercy
for those less fortunate than me.
i am a strong, powerful man,
with charisma and intelligence.
i can do, and have done, great harm
if i am selfish.
i have learned not to selfishly abuse my strengths
but to put them to work for others benefit.
i have learned
not to kill or steal.
i still have much to learn,
but i am making progress.
a few thousand more lifetimes
and maybe i'll get it right.

(Message edited by admin on April 27, 2004)

#3 Guest_roo_*

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Posted 26 April 2004 - 09:41 PM

Thats not true. We have everything from Budhists to Atheists to even a few traditional christians.

We have wed many pagans who have wanted traditional weddings they could have their non pagan families attend. We are very non dogmatic, we get together for fellowship and knowlege, thats it. I meet with a minority of the congregation who has an interest in Ayahuasca. I have met a few shamans from peru in this way. I would have never have gotten this opertunity otherwise. The "greator" church is interested in it also, but not to the extent we are. Those of us in Europe have official support.

I too have been down the path you have. Searching for truth. I have found the search to be the only real truth. I can surf any "reality" out there, find what I am looking for and go to another. As far as my personal experiances go everytime I think I find the ultimate reality, it blows up in my own face! SOmething bigger always comes around so why try believing. Just enjoy the trip, do no harm, and learn all you can learn, through personal experiance.

Or in fewer words, my medicine came todayPosted Image, The Trip is the Reality and the Truth. I honestly hope there is no final destination.



#4 Guest_roo_*

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Posted 26 April 2004 - 09:51 PM

i can't recall right now exactly why i volunteered for this mission.
but what i have learned here so far
mainly
is that i must have compassion and mercy
for those less fortunate than me.
i am a strong, powerful man,
with charisma and intelligence.
i can do, and have done, great harm
if i am selfish.
i have learned not to selfishly abuse my strengths
but to put them to work for others benefit.
i have learned
not to kill or steal.
i still have much to learn,
but i am making progress.
a few thousand more lifetimes
and maybe i'll get it right.


I would suspect all that matters is what comes out of the whole process of existance. I myself have had to come to grips obout a few things in my past once and for all. I have had to learn to forgive other people for past things. The hardest part of this experiance was learning to forgive my self. Thats harder than hell... But progress is being made. I dont care about the person that I was much anymore. It is a lesson learned. I take one day at a time and try to be a better person than I was yesterday. Thats all one can realy do.


#5 morella

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Posted 27 April 2004 - 10:19 AM

I was into the occult and I didn't find God through a church. I didn't even know any Christians. I called on the Lord when my life was threatened and recieved the Holy Spirit. Things were rocky after that, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

Hippie, the "Day of the LORD" occurs AFTER the "falling away" and AFTER the anti-christ is revealed and it is preceeded by signs in the heavens(2Thes 2:23). A great prophet will come first(Mal 4:5) who most believe to be one of the 2 witnesses in Rev.

Yes, the bible is a wealth of information...some people find other uses for it though. Rodger, I am so pleased that you are using it for reading this time!

Zech 14:12, "And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the PEOPLE WHO FOUGHT AGAINST JERULSALEM". He is not going to annilate every unbeliever on the planet. The anti-christ(see Dan 7:18,Hab 2:5) is further described in Ez 38:22, "I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many people who are with him, great hailstones, fire and brimstone...vs 3, "...and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then shall they know that I am LORD".

Rev 16:16, "And they gathered them together into a place called Armageddon". The anti-christ and his armies are gathered so that God can destroy them, and, "The earth quakes before them, the heavens tremble; The sun and the moon grow dark, And the stars will diminish their brightness..."(Joel 2:2); vs 12, God pleads to the nations, "Turn to Me with all your hearts...render your heart and not your garments", Joel 3:14: "Multitudes, multitudes, in the Valley of Decision! For the LORD is near in the Valley of Decision", Joel 2:32: "And it will come to pass, that whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved".

Micah 7:15: "As in the days when you came out of Egypt, I will show them wonders...". Just as the Egyptians witnessed the Israelites escaping through the Red Sea, the world will witness the Mount of Olives split in two with the Israelites escaping through the valley(Zech 14:4,5).

The defeat mentioned in Zech 2, will be turned into victory when the people call on their messiah, "Then they will look on Me whom they have pierced"(Zech 12:12). "God shall save her, just at the break of dawn..The nations raged, the kingdoms were moved; Come behold the works of the LORD, who has made desolations in the earth, He makes wars to cease to the ends of the earth"(Ps 47:5,6,8).

Scripture teaches that all believers will be raptured before the feet of Jesus touch on the Mount of Olives. Christians disagree on when the rapture takes place: pre-trib, mid-trib pre-wrath, or post-trib. The people coming out of the nations cannot be Christians since all believers have been raptured by this time.

Zech 14:16, "And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerulsalem(only their armies were destroyed), shall go up from year to year to worship the King". Vs 17,18, mention people who will not go up. Who are these people if God has murdered all of the unbelievers?

Survivors in the nations are also mentioned in Is 2, "He will judge between many peoples, And rebuke strong nations afar off; They shall beat their swords into plowshares, Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore". Clearly God has not committed mass murder on all unbelievers as people are mentioned again in Zeph 3:9, "I will restore to the peoples a pure language, that they may call on the name of the LORD, to serve with one accord... I will leave in your midst, a meek and humble people".
Ez 36:36 mentions unbelievers also, "AND THE HEATHEN THAT ARE LEFT about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places...".
(Message edited by morella on April 27, 2004)

(Message edited by morella on April 27, 2004)

#6 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 27 April 2004 - 10:42 AM

the rapture eh ?
you have a pretty literal interpretation of the book of revelations and the related apocalyptic verses of the OT,
when it suits you.
other times your flexibility in interpretation
is not nearly as literal.
lol
pretty typical for a xian.
sorry if i seem distainful
but you state things with such force of conviction that your interpretation is the 'correct' one.
many xians do not even believe in a literal rapture yet you say it will happen, the only question is when.
i think that's open to argument too.
so i take it
you think we're living sometime in the end times ?


#7 morella

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Posted 27 April 2004 - 06:37 PM

Yes, I believe we are in the latter days and I think many non christians also believe things are coming to a head.

The Catholics are traditionally a-millenial, believing the 1,000 year reign begins after Christ's 1st coming, but they still believe in the rapture at Christ's 2nd coming. Protestants are divided on the timing of the rapture-most of them are pre-millenial, believing the 1,000 year reign begins after the 2nd coming.

The early church also believed in a literal antichrist, the rapture and the literal 2nd coming of Christ. The Didach, written just 10 years after Rev, warns, "...and then shall appear the world-deceiver as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands...".

The Epistle of Barnabas, 2nd century, states, "Ten kingdoms shall reign upon the earth, and a little King shall rise up after them.."

Hippolytus, 170 AD-236 AD, wrote Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, "When he makes war against the saints and persecutes them, then may we expect the manifestation of the Lord from heaven".

Shepherd of Hermes 3rd vision, 2nd century writes, "Happy ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming, and happy are they who shall not deny their own life".



#8 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 27 April 2004 - 09:02 PM

hmm, now none of those quotes are actually
'scripture',
a bit weak on actual bible verses to support your claim ?


#9 morella

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 11:26 PM

So you want some bible verses, lol, alright, then maybe people can rest assured that neither Bush nor Kerry could be the antichrist.

Daniel's vision of the beasts in chapter 7 represents world empires: 1)lion=Babylonian empire 2)bear=Medo-Persian empire 3)leopard=Greece 4) Rome 5)beast with 10 horns=endtime power of the "little horn" or antichrist. "And there, in this horn, were eyes like a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words"(Dan 7:7).

The endtime empire is described in Dan 7:24, "...the 10 horns are 10 kings, who shall arise from this kingdom[Roman empire] And another["little horn"] shall rise after them...And shall subdue 3 kings. He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, and shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand, for a time, and times and half a time(31/2yrs).

This corresponds with Rev 13:5, "And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for 42 months....It was granted to him to make war with the saints...authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation".

Dan 7:13,14, mentions the 2nd Coming, "And behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven...Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him".

2Thes 2:3-5, "Let no one deceive you by any means, for that Day will not come unless the falling away[great apostacy] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself as God". This corresponds to Dan 12:11, when the antichrist defiles the temple in the middle of the 7yr tribulation, "And from that time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, then shall be 1,290 days".

The best classic rapture scripture would be, 1 Thes 4:5, "... we who are alive and remain until the coming of our Lord, will by no means precede those who are asleep[dead]. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And then we shall always be with the Lord".





#10 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 29 April 2004 - 07:25 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Daniel's vision of the beasts in chapter 7 represents world empires: 1)lion=Babylonian empire 2)bear=Medo-Persian empire 3)leopard=Greece 4) Rome 5)beast with 10 horns=endtime power of the "little horn" or antichrist. "And there, in this horn, were eyes like a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words"(Dan 7:7).<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
ah,
but since all these things are symbols,
who's to say but that the eyes and mouth
represent, not a single 'man' like an antichrist,
but rather a group, an organisation perhaps ?
that's the thing with interpretation,
there's no way to be certain.
you even guessing as to which animals represent which empires, using the hindsight of history.
but those are, in the end, only guesses.

#11 Guest_roo_*

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Posted 29 April 2004 - 08:34 PM

hmmm...


My grandmother used to think I was the Antichrist.....

#12 Guest_roo_*

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Posted 29 April 2004 - 08:44 PM

I am shure all of those old hebrew prophets had some kind of etheogen to see stuff like that. It also could have been the result of any number of things. Who knows, As far as the book of Rev. goes, I may decide to listen to a tape of it while triping on 4 or 5 grams of shrooms. I wonder what insites it holds..

#13 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 30 April 2004 - 08:13 AM

if you get high enough
anything and everything will
be filled with hidden meaning
to you.
once i listened to a tape of the book of jeremiah
[not the bullfrog, the prophet]
while ill with a high fever
and thought god was talking to me.
i've seen so many alternate interpretations of the book of revelations that i don't even bother trying to figure it out.
but i do tend to agree with scholars who believe that almost all of it
applies only to 1st century rome,
not today.


#14 Guest_roo_*

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Posted 30 April 2004 - 03:59 PM

I too have seen many interpretations of that book also. It does make more sense if applied to the 1st century roman world.

I have read a few alternate theories regarding the Emperor Constantine as being the anti-christ. I am of the opinion that things went the wrong direction after the Council of Nicea which he presided over. The only scriptures that survived where those that proved the "Nicene faith". I consider this to be a great loss, no matter how true or untrue the discarded scriptures where.

I consider the Christ to be a man, human. But at the same time "one" with GOD. Something we all possess to a point, but he was "born" like this. From what I have read in the scriptures he never realy came out and said he was god. He did say something to the effect that "I and the father are one.." but he said it in the context of being one in intent, of the same nature. I do not get the impression that he ran around saying he was GOD or no more co-equal with GOD than we could be. There is even a verse where he actualy places YAHYA (John the Baptist) in very high regard. He and the Christ were 2 men I would realy like to sit down and talk to. To me it seems like the christ brought the "real" religion of the people out of the desert and into the cities. His time in the desert seems to be very much like a shamatic initiation ritual, along with his anoiting and dunking in the river. Also from what I read in the scripture, he thought the "temple" had become just a place of "empty ritual". People where just going through the motions with no "energy". If you do this or that you will be ok sort of thing. Actions without faith. He made some very simple and logical observations regarding things like fasting, etc.

I have taken a middle road as far as the nature of christ. I can connect and relate better to a man who was filled with GOD, rather than to a "GOD". His words make more sense to me this way.

#15 Guest_i_am_me_*

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Posted 30 April 2004 - 04:14 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

once i listened to a tape of the book of jeremiah
[not the bullfrog, the prophet]
<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Posted Image



#16 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 30 April 2004 - 06:09 PM

personally i doubt jesus was very much like he's portrayed in the gospels,
one must remember that ALL of the gospels were written AFTER jesus' death and AFTER the early disciples turned away from their
original jew-only doctrine to recruit among the gentiles.
so i expect they cleaned up jesus to make him a bit more palatable to non-jews.
what little shines thru seems to indicate that the real jesus might not have been nearly as pleasant as we imagine, he did not rail against the pharisees for being too strict
but rather for being too lax.
jesus was calling for a revolution, a holy war
in the name of the true god/religion
he wanted a new isreal,
and he meant to build it upon himself.
but there were many many others just like him milling about in the world at the time,
they of course are less well known
as his cult obliterated any traces once they came into power, assuming the romans had not gotten to them first.


#17 Guest_roo_*

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Posted 30 April 2004 - 06:16 PM

I agree with you one this. The "empire" had all sorts of strange religions floating around at this time. It is very interesting the amount of culteral interchange that was taking place at this time.

#18 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 30 April 2004 - 06:30 PM

my take on it
is that the 'real' god, if you will, USED the xian movement [among others] to accomplish certain social changes meant to evolve humans and our society.
look at, not the theology,
but the footprint.
what was accomplished ?
well, for one- the xian movement gave Rome a stability which created organisations which persisted into modern times, the Vatican being the most notable example.
the Holy Roman Empire,
a bizarre legal fiction which in theory traced its' legitimacy all the way back to ancient rome did not go out of existance until the end of world war one.
the xians created and maintained conditions that imposed a single language upon the mediterranean,
latin, which continues in use, albeit limited, to this day. and the romans/xians created many other foundations of our modern world,
building upon what they inheirited from the greeks and egyptians.
so in my mind
jesus could have been indeed used by god
and still not be what he claimed to be.
just as the bible is a valuable tool that can be used by god, even though it is but a clever work of educated men. all things come together to do the work of destiny, even lies can speed and direct change in the right direction.



#19 Guest_roo_*

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Posted 30 April 2004 - 06:40 PM

Yes, to take lead and make it gold. Or to take a piece of rock; make it smooth and pound out the rough edges.

These are big "secrets" you speak of. I am shure you know of its many names, be it the "Great Work" or something like this by another name. Its been going on for millions of years. Its a process we all can contribute to, but at the same time MUCH bigger than just a single person.



#20 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 30 April 2004 - 07:17 PM

of course,
it might not be god directly
that is manipulating us,
it could just as well be ET,
but ET too serves
the creator's intentions.




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