Genocide and human sacrifice in the OT
Posted 18 April 2004 - 11:53 AM
I also think that this universe contains the essence of the true GOD. It is inside all of us. I believe that Jesus son of Mary was sent by the ONE to redeam us from the laws and cruelty of the OT GOD. He taught us not to look up for the answers but to look within. He was the Son of GOD and the Son of man, as we all are. He just knew who he realy was for certain and let us know the truth.
Because You, being a Man, make Yourself God" (John 10:33).
'Is it not written in your law [in Psalm 82:6], "I said, 'You are gods'"? If He [God] called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, "You are blaspheming," because I said, "I am the Son of God"?'" (John 10:34-36).
If one reads Genesis from the perspective that the OT GOD was not the "ONE", but rather some sort of young spiritual being who thought it was the ALL, it make more sence.
The OT GOD created Adam as an androgenous being, both male and female, but still without knowlege, except that which is spoon fed by this GOD. From the way the text reads we seemed like "pets" to this GOD. But it is clear, in my mind at least, that this GOD was not the ONE that knew the ALL. It may have thought it was, but it was not. When Eve was created, who breathed life into her? The text does not real say. Then all hell broke loose..
The Fall of Man
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
Who was this serpent, and why did it apear to Eve first? Who was Eve and is it not true she was created to help Adam? Who is this GOD that walks in the cool of the day, and cannot find his children? The ALL KNOWING ONE? What is so wrong with having the knowlege of good and evil? ie FREE WILL. Perhaps it is becouse this GOD may have a feeling that it is not the ONE and wishs its creation to never know the truth.
If I created a new life form I might feel like this also, its power. But not true power. If I had created a universe, and saw in it the reflection of the ONE and thought it was my own, such a thing would be even harder to handle. If my greatest creation saw this truth and defied me I might do this:
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring  and hers;
he will crush  your head,
and you will strike his heel."
16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
20 Adam  named his wife Eve,  because she would become the mother of all the living.
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side  of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
Why does this GOD fear them so? "22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Why is this such a bad thing? I wonder what this "fruit" Perhaps there is more to Adam and Eve than what this GOD put into them. Perhaps there is a piece of the ONE in them now, and this GOD fears having to see itself for what it is. Thus we are cast out and told to make it on our own, perhaps we where sent out to spend our days scratching, starving and living the pains of life so that we may not have time to remember who we realy are, coequal to our creator through the same divine essence. Yea, cursed be the woman who saw through the bullshit.
This seems like a real can of worms, but in reality such doctrine used to be apart of Christianity before Nicea and Constantine who did not even convert to Christianity untill he was on his death bed.
Posted 18 April 2004 - 12:21 PM
Posted 18 April 2004 - 12:32 PM
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Why is this such a bad thing?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
that is a very good question, friend.
what was so terrible
about knowledge and life
that justifies birth defects and diseases
and hunger and war
for billions of people over thousands of years ?
their god calls himself a Father
but what kind of father would curse his own children and grandchildren to such a horrible fate just to prove some obscure point about glorifying his name to all ?
it makes no sense.
of course, none of old religion makes much sense if you ask me,
just cannot stand up to science.
what can the book of genesis say about the people who were here 75,000 years ago ?
Posted 18 April 2004 - 10:53 PM
Adam and Eve took a dunk/dip without the bleach and let a contam in. The contaminated culture had to be removed. A plan was in place to cut out the contaminated part and rub in some salt. They were not abandoned, infact, God claims that it was his people who abandoned Him. Israel in the OT can also be used allegorically to refer to "spiritual Israel" and I can personally relate to this story.
Jer 2:3, "For my people have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, And hewn themselves cisterns-broken cisterns that can hold no water". They followed the king of Assyria who beckons, "Come out to me...and everyone drink the waters of his own cistern, until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, that you may live and not die"(2 Ki 18:31).
They proceeded to set up puppet regimes, "And those that handle the law do not know me, The rulers also transgressed against Me, the prophets prophesied by Baal"(Jer 2:8). They basically told God to get lost, saying to Isaiah, "Cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us"(Is 30:11). To Jeremiah they threatened, "Do not prophesy in the name of the LORD lest you die by our hand"(Jer 11:21).
...and yet, these are the very same people that will someday be called His jewels(Zec 9:6). It will occur on the day that Zechariah's vision is fulfilled: Joshua, who is representing Israel, is standing before the Angel of the Lord in filthy garments (The Hebrew word for filthy literally means "befouled with excrement"). The Angel of the Lord orders Satan to stand back and says, "Is this not a brand plucked from the fire[of captivity]? Take away the filthy garments from him". And to him He said, "See I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you in rich robes."
I think Deut 30:1-4 sums it up:
"Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back".
Posted 18 April 2004 - 11:29 PM
Jesus is arguing that it is not blasphemy to apply the term "god" to a person since God referred to His representatives as "gods" in Ps 82:6. These men were not called gods because they possessed a divine nature; they were judges.
Jn 10:34, "If I do not do the works of My father, do not believe Me, but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works..."
What was Jesus asking them to believe? It had to be something attested to by miracles. In Jn 10:28, He had just finished telling them that He was the giver of eternal life.
If the OT god is so terrible, why does Jesus identify Himself with Him? In Jn 8:58, He calls Himself "Ego Eimi", Yahweh's name in Ex 3:14. He is also identified with the pierced Yahweh of Zec 12:10. The glory of Yahweh in Is 6:1-5, is the glory of Jesus in Jn 12:41. In Mat 22:41-45, Jesus identifies Himself with the Lord sitting on the right hand of Yahweh who, in Ps 110, is commanded to take His kingdom back from His enemies-The messiah who is both David's descendant and David's lord.
Posted 19 April 2004 - 09:14 AM
It seems that Adam and Eve ate the fruit for the wrong reasons, for the purpose of self-deification.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
why is it that god
lets the angels get away with murder
but tortures mankind ?
it was satan, the serpent,
that brought the lie
but he was not killed,
adam and eve were.
satan was given power, and the world was put in his hands
but humanity was given cancer and famine.
the angels came down and fornicated with humanity,
they went their merry way
but god destroyed the children of men.
Posted 19 April 2004 - 10:32 AM
"Shall there be evil in a city and Jehovah hath not done it?"--Amos 3:6.
Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.)
Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14
You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new.
Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9
"The wars of extermination have given a lot of people trouble unless they understand fully what was going on. The people in the land of Palestine were very wicked... God told the Israelites to kill them all: men, women and children; to destroy them." And that seems like a terrible thing to do. Is it or isn't it? Well, let us assume that there were two thousand of them or ten thousand of them living in the land, or whatever number, I don't have the exact number, but pick a number. And God said, "Kill them all." Well, that would seem hard, wouldn't it? But that would be 10,000 people who probably would go to hell. But if they stayed and reproduced, in thirty, forty or fifty or sixty or a hundred more years there could conceivably be ... ten thousand would grow to a hundred, a hundred thousand conceivably could grow to a million, and there would be a million people who would have to spend an eternity in Hell! And it is far more merciful to take away a few than to see in the future a hundred years down the road, and say, "Well, I'll have to take away a million people, that will be forever apart from God because the abomination is there." It's like a contagion. God saw that there was no cure for it. It wasn't going to change, and all they would do is cause trouble for the Israelites and pull the Israelites away from God and prevent the truth of God from reaching the earth. And so God in love - and that was a loving thing - took away a small number that he might not have to take away a large number..." (Source: The 700 Club television program, May 6, 1985.
Same tree... Same fruit...
As the great deist Thomas Paine once said: "There are matters in that book, said to be done by the express command of God, that are ...shocking to humanity and to every idea we have of moral justice... To charge the commission of acts upon the Almighty, which, in their own nature, and by every rule of moral justice, are crimes, as all assassination is, and more especially the assassination of infants, is matter of serious concern. The Bible tells us, that those assassinations were done by the express command of God. To believe, therefore, the Bible to be true, we must unbelieve all our belief in the moral justice of God; for wherein could crying or smiling infants offend?... People in general do not know what wickedness there is in this pretended word of God. Brought up in habits of superstition, they take it for granted that the Bible is true, and that it is good; they permit themselves not to doubt of it, and they carry the ideas they form of the benevolence of the Almighty to the book which they have been taught to believe was written by his authority. Good heavens! it is quite another thing; it is a book of lies, wickedness, and blasphemy; for what can be greater blasphemy than to ascribe the wickedness of man to the orders of the Almighty?" (see excerpts from: AGE OF REASON by Thomas Paine)
Posted 19 April 2004 - 10:39 AM
What evil is there in "Knowing Ones self"....
Posted 19 April 2004 - 10:46 AM
I've been saying that for years. It's a man made religion that must be 'enforced' with threats, either of death at the hands of clergy now, or eternal damnation later. If there were such a thing as a 'true god', he/she wouldn't be jealous of 'other gods' in one instance, then declare "there is no god but me" in another. If they were selling snake oil, they'd be shut down and arrested. Since they're selling 'religion', they're considered holy and pure. What bullshit.
Posted 19 April 2004 - 11:00 AM
I find it very strange that we are at the mercy of our own creations, or gods. We have been killing, maiming, raping, and converting our fellow man in the name of 'gods' we have created.
The true "GOD" or the "souce" is a part of every human. We know right from wrong at birth, thanks to the serpent. We do not need to be taught about it, nor can we find it in books, we just have to look for it within our own souls as I believe this is the only pure link we can ever have to it.
"IT" is like nothing in the universe.
(Message edited by tehutiroo on April 19, 2004)
(Message edited by tehutiroo on April 19, 2004)
Posted 19 April 2004 - 11:45 AM
Posted 19 April 2004 - 11:59 AM
According to Heb 11:19, Abraham believed Isaac
would be brought to life<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
So what separates Abraham from the two Texas mothers who recently killed their children because they heard god tell them to do it? If god told Abraham to kill Isaac, and he drew back the knife to do it out of obedience to god, why should some fundamentalist Christian housewife who hears god tell her to kill her children disobey the will of god? Is it her fault that she didn't hear god tell her at the last second she really didn't need to do it? Why is it that anyone who heard 'voices' 3,000 years ago is a prophet, but anyone who hears them today is a whacko? Sorry, I meant to stay off these threads. Considering my past, I get too worked up. I apologize if I come across as condescending.
Posted 19 April 2004 - 12:19 PM
Why is it that anyone who heard 'voices' 3,000 years ago is a prophet, but anyone who hears them today is a whacko?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Yeah isn't that the truth.
Posted 19 April 2004 - 06:07 PM
we are born with a knowledge of right and wrong<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
that's debatable, imho.
i think people have to be taught,
otherwise what is 'right'
becomes equivalent to
what is self-beneficial.
Posted 20 April 2004 - 09:34 PM
Some schizophrenic individuals hear voices from God, others hear from aliens or even Elvis. The Israelites were not just following voices in their heads; they had witnessed miracles in Egypt and the parting of the Jordan River. They saw God speak to Moses in Ex 33:7-11, 34:29-35. God spoke directly to all of them in Ju 1:1-2.
Hippie, the angels who left their original abode in Gen 6:1, are confined and awaiting judgment(Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:4). The rest will be judged on the Day of the LORD. "It shall come to pass in that day, That the LORD will punish on high the host of the exalted ones"(Is 24:21).
According to the Enuma Elish, written in the 12th century B.C.E., the chief deity of the fallen angels is Marduk, "Most shining One, Son of the Sun". "Then Marduk, as king divided the gods, one host below and another above, 300 above for the watchers in heaven, watchers of the law of Anu, 5x 60 for earth, 600 gods between earth and heaven".
Marduk will also be judged on the Day of the LORD, "I will punish Bel[Marduk] in Babylon, And I will bring out of his mouth all that he has swallowed; And the nations shall stream to him no more"(Jer 51:44). "Say Babylon is taken, Bel is shamed; Merodach[Marduk] is broken in pieces"(Jer 50:2).
Posted 20 April 2004 - 09:44 PM
In my own personal experiance the best knowlege of the divine and its nature can only come from personal experiance. I just do not believe that the "ONE" would limit itself and its truth to but one group of people. Why would the creator of the "ALL" choose one group of humanity over all the rest? I could care less what anyone believes, but when they say GOD hates me or believes I am wrong becouse I do not believe as they do, I tend to see nothing but BS. Its like a group of "humans" playing GOD.... And to say that I was born to go to hell, the concept of original sin, I believe this to not even be scriptual. I have yet to find any clear evidence in the old or new testament, as is also the case of the "trinity". Hell and the devil realy do not show up untill the new testament anyway. I have debated these subjects with apoligists and all I get is vague interpertation and many verses taken completly out of context.
Posted 20 April 2004 - 10:13 PM
"According to the Enuma Elish, written in the 12th century B.C.E., the chief deity of the fallen angels is Marduk, "Most shining One, Son of the Sun". "Then Marduk, as king divided the gods, one host below and another above, 300 above for the watchers in heaven, watchers of the law of Anu, 5x 60 for earth, 600 gods between earth and heaven"."
The Enuma Elish predates the Hebrews, it is Sumarian in origion. The Hebrews where not yet in existance as a people or a religion. They just borrowed the concepts and made them their own. Every culture does this. They origon of the Hebrews is very complex, one can see how the religion evolved in the bible. It is clear that when these people came into contact with other cultures they asimalated bits and pieces from the more powerfull ones, much like third world countries asimalate parts of our culture.
One can see how the religion of the Hebrews evolved into Christianity and Judeism through contact with the Greco Roman world and eventualy Islam evolved from these 2 religions. It is a clear historical fact that the Hebrews are a "dead" people, much like the Sumarians. The "god" the Hebrews worshiped was a national god, just as Marduke was the national god of Babalon, the mortal enemy of the hebrews.
Posted 21 April 2004 - 08:37 AM
Amos 3:6 "Shall there be evil in a city and will not the LORD have done it?" KJV
Roo, the King James translation is not your most accurate. All other translations, NKJV, NIV, NASV, use the word "calamity" instead of "evil". The Hebrew word for evil is ra'. It can mean morally evil but it can also mean adversity or afliction(see Gen 47:9, Pr 15:10). In Amos 4:1, we learn that the "calamity" or "evil" is directed towards those "who oppress the poor" and "crush the needy". Ps 5:4 tells us, "For you are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness nor shall evil dwell with you".
Pat Roberson should not have said "the people of Palestine were very wicked". He should have said "the people of Canaan were very wicked" lest anyone equate the modern day Palestinians with the Canaanites. The Canaanites existed way before Ishmael was even born, Gen 13:7, Gen 15:20, Gen 14:7.
Many people are under the false impression that our founding fathers were Christians when, infact, many were deists or Free Masons: Thomas Jefferson, George Washington(and his generals), Ben Franklin, John Hancock, Ethan Allen, Paul Revere, etc. Free Mason beliefs were an offshoot of British Israelism, the false teching that the Anglo-Saxon race are the chosen people, the 13th tribe of Manaseh. They were dominionists, seeking to form a utopia based on human reason and enlightenment.
Free Mason concepts are reflected in the Great Seal which includes 10 features of 13, including a 13 stepped pyramid with the Eye of Horus. The latin words on top of the seal say "Annuit Coeptis" meaning "announcing the birth of". On the bottom scroll we have 'Novus Ordo' which means "new world order".
While Thomas Paine criticized the OT God for targeting the Canaanites, he saw nothing wrong with Manifest Destiny or war for the sake of his utopia. The colonists believed a peaceful solution with England was possible untill Common Sense was written, which convinced them that there was no turning back. Nor did they criticize slavery, although the Brittish were appalled. Gen John Burgoyne wanted to send in armies to free the American slaves.
The Brittish did not want expansion past the Alleghany Mountains but Thomas Jefferson signed the Lousisana Purchase which launched Manifest Destiny. The great preacher John Wesley denounced Manifest Destiny in "A Caution Against Bigotry".
Sodom would have been spared had there been 10 righteous men. Were there not at least 10 righteous men to be found among the Native Americans? Before the Amalekites were destroyed, the righteous were warned to move away (1 Sam 15:5-6). Were the Native Americans given this opportunity? The Canaanites had a long history of unmitigated bloodshed and were an imminent threat yet they were given a chance to repent.
What were the Native Americans guilty of?
Now that we have discussed Manifest Destiny, what evidence do we have that shows that the men behind the Crusades, Cather Crusades, and Spanish Inquistion were practicing Christians in the biblical sense?
(Message edited by morella on April 21, 2004)
Posted 21 April 2004 - 09:16 AM
It is a clear historical fact that the Hebrews are a "dead" people, much like the Sumarians<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
i would call that debatable.
it would be more accurate, imo,
to say the israelites are gone,
but some of the hebrew still remain.
only the tribes of judah and benjamin and a few levites
survived the conquest by the assyrians,
the other tribes never returned.
that's why they are called 'jews', after judah.
but they still speak the language
so it'd be hard to call them
a dead people, imo.
Posted 21 April 2004 - 09:21 AM
"Marduk will also be judged on the Day of the LORD, "I will punish Bel[Marduk] in Babylon, And I will bring out of his mouth all that he has swallowed; And the nations shall stream to him no more"(Jer 51:44). "Say Babylon is taken, Bel is shamed; Merodach[Marduk] is broken in pieces"(Jer 50:2)."
you gotta remember that everything in the bible,
esp. when 'god' talks,
figures of speech with implication
not just literal meaning.
that verse is not admitting the existance of a deity called marduk,
rather the word marduk is being used as a symbol,
just as the word babylon.
of course the trick then is to figure out exactly what was the intended meaning,
interpretation is subject to subjective bias.