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Genocide and human sacrifice in the OT


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#61 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 09:25 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

what evidence do we have that shows that the men behind the Crusades, Cather Crusades, and Spanish Inquistion were practicing Christians in the biblical sense?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
well now see
that's playing into your game.
you get to define 'real christians'
and pick and choose
which suit your interpretation of history.
the 'biblical sense', as you mean it,
does not matter in the history.
those people were Christians
because that's how the world remembers them,
that's what they called themselves,
they quoted the same book that you do.
as far as the world is concerned
all varieties of 'christians'
from catholics to whatever you call yourself
are lumped into the same general category.
people of the book.


#62 Guest_roo_*

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 11:02 AM

I do not see what the big deal is regarding this. In the END all that realy matters is what we do in our lives and what we do to other people. I have heard it said that in the end we are our own judge.

All I am saying that it realy comes down to who I am as a person, the choices I make for myself. What good does it do anyone to try to scare people in to believing as I do? Why do I have to be converted to something that as a human being should be able to discover on my own? I consider knowlege that I am forced to believe to be of much less value than that of which I experiance on my own. The same goes with money and material possetions. If I fight for it hard, if I search high and low for it, than it realy becomes something I can respect and take care of. There is shurly no harm in reading scripture and believing in it, but when that belief becomes something that is done blindly, what is the point? Why have it? "GOD" gave us all minds and the freedom to choose and think. Why would "GOD" have done this and then condem us for using this great gift?

As far as lumping people together into groups I believe this to be another example of "mindless" belief. If I where an athiest, fed the poor, did no harm to others or my self, and realy loved my fellow man, does this mean that "GOD" is going to burn me in hell for all time? Why? Becouse I did not stroke its EGO with my blind faith? What sort of a "GOD" or "creator" would NEED my worship and total "slavory". It makes no sense to me to say that this athiest person, or person who believes differantly than I do, who does good works, will burn when someone who believes in "GOD" can create suffering and totaly disrespect humanity, and not go to hell. Such a "GOD" sounds more like a Sadam Husaine or Hitler to me. I would rather go to hell than serve such a master.

I have realy searched hard to find out who Jesus was and what he realy said. I have had the good fortune to read documents with his sayings and teachings that predate the modern church. What he said was WONDERFULL. What I got from these writings was that he was a man who was in total contact with the divine, just as you and I are able to speak to each other in person, he was able to with the creator of and supreme divinity. He seemed to be saying "Look at me, look at what I do, look at how I handle other people, look at how I live my life and that the person I am could be you." Seek and ye shall find... He did not tell people to go to the temple and participate in meaningless ritual, kiss the priests asses and everything will be ok for you. He seemd to be someone who saw through all this BS and he had no problems telling people its a bunch of BS. Nor did he change his mind when they wanted to kill him either. He had earned his truth and was true to himself. It is hard for me to accept that such a man became the center of something he wanted nothing to do with. It is also hard to believe that so many have died in his name. Its actualy painfull for me to realize how many peoples, cultures, and races have been dehumanized in his name also. Be it slavory, genocide and racism in our own cultures 500 years of history or the opression of those who saw him for who he was in the first 500 years after his death. These things bring great sadness to me becouse I believe we are all created equal, and free.

#63 manjotar

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 02:14 PM

i think its crazy that our dollar bill states that we (america) want to take over the world...

#64 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 09:23 AM

that's not exactly what it says,
that's just one interpretation.

#65 morella

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 08:28 PM

Some interpret "Novus Ordo Seclorum" as "New Order of the Ages". I didn't mean to suggest that there is a Masonic conspiracy to take over the world, only that its teachings had an influence on our founding fathers. Thomas Paine presented sun-god worship as an alternative to Christianity in "Origin of Free-Masonry". He wrote, "Osiris and Isis, theologically represented the Supreme Being and universial nature...". The Eye of Horus appears on the Great Seal. Horus was an Egyptian sun-god,the son of Osiris.

Anglo-Israelism was another influence, which explains why Promise Land images were at first chosen for the Great Seal. Ben Franklin wanted to show the Israelites led by a pillar of fire while Thomas Jefferson wanted the Red Sea parting.

While the Enuma Elish predates the Hebrews, the prophet Enoch was living in this region around 32844-3017 B.C.E. but later moved to Egypt. Enoch was known as Idris in the Quran, ch 19:56-57, "Verily,! He was a man of truth and a prophet, we raised him in high station". There is mention of him evangelizing in Gen 4:25,6:2, "To Seth, to him also there was born a son, and he called him Enos; Then men began to call upon the name Jehovah". Enoch is described in the Talmud as a kind of redeemer figure.

Abraham lived in the Babylonian city of Ur around 2000 B.C.E.(?) His Father was a maker of Idols(Josh 24:2). The Talmud tells of Abraham, as a boy, being left in charge of his fathers shop. His father returned to find all of the statues broken except the one with the stick in his hand. Abraham explained that the statue with the stick had broken all of the others. His father didn't buy it, "Statues can't think. Statues can't move!"
Abraham replied, "Then why do you pray to them".

Eventualy Abraham left Ur for Haran in northern Babylon. Because of the idolotry, God told Abraham to leave Babylon altogether (Gen 12). There are some similarities between Genesis and the Enuma Elish. Babylonia was exposed to the Genesis account and I am inclined to think that polytheists would be more likely to borrow than monotheists.

Hippie, you're right, prophesy is open to interpretation and I tend to spiritualize it. Many commentators believe Is 14 refers to the anti-christ.

QUOTE: "It makes no sense to me that this atheist ...who does good works, will burn when someone who believes in "God" can create suffering and totaly disrespect humanity, and not go to hell". This is taking the grace teaching way too far! Thats why I never cared much for John Calvin.

(Message edited by morella on April 24, 2004)

#66 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 08:40 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I am inclined to think that polytheists would be more inclined to borrow than monotheists. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
history belies that assumption.
polytheism is older by far than monotheism,
of that
there is no dispute.
i can quite easily point to many items
'borrowed' by monotheists from the pagans,
one of the most notable
being the date of christmas.
no serious bible scholars believe that dec.25
was the actual birthday of jesus.
rather, the evidence overwhelmingly favors
a birth in the early spring of 3 B.C.
[see http://www.op.org/op/ebaf/inwhat.htm]
but there had long been a pagan festival on
dec. 25
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

<font color="119911">Grolier's encyclopedia says: "Christmas is the feast of the birth of Jesus Christ, celebrated on December 25.... Despite the beliefs about Christ that the birth stories expressed, the church did not observe a festival for the celebration of the event until the 4th century.... since 274, under the emperor Aurelian, Rome had celebrated the feast of the "Invincible Sun" on December 25. In the Eastern Church, January 6, a day also associated with the winter solstice, was in itially preferred. In course of time, however, the West added the Eastern date as the Feast of the Epiphany, and the East added the Western date of Christmas".

So who else celebrated the 25th of December as the birth day of their gods before it was agreed upon as the birth day of Jesus (pbuh)? Well, there are the people of India who rejoice, decorate their houses with garlands, and give presents to their friends on this day. The people of China also celebrate this day and close their shops. The pagan god Buddha is believed to have been born on this day when the "Holy Ghost" descended on his virgin mother Maya. The great saviour and god of the Persians, Mithras, is also believed to have been born on the 25th of December long before the coming of Jesus (pbuh).

The Egyptians celebrated this day as the birth day of their great saviour Horus, the Egyptian god of light and the son of the "virgin mother" and "queen of the heavens" Isis. Osiris, god of the dead and the underworld in Egypt, the son of "the holy virgin", again was believed to have been born on the 25th of December.

The Greeks celebrated the 25th of December as the birthday of Hercules, the son of the supreme god of the Greeks, Zeus, through the mortal woman Alcmene. Bacchus, the god of wine and revelry among the Romans (known among the Greeks as Dionysus) was also born on this day.

Adonis, revered as a "dying-and-rising god" among the Greeks, miraculously was also born on the 25th of December. His worshipers held him a yearly festival representing his death and resurrection, in midsummer. The ceremonies of his birthday are recorded to have taken place in the same cave in Bethlehem which is claimed to have been the birth place of Jesus.

The Scandinavians celebrated the 25th of December as the birthday of their god Freyr, the son of their supreme god of the heavens, Odin.

The Romans observed this day as the birthday of the god of the sun, Natalis Solis Invicti ("Birthday of Sol the invincible"). There was great rejoicing and all shops were closed. There was illumination and public games. Presents were exchanged, and the slaves were indulged in great liberties. Remember, these are the same Romans who would later preside over the council of Nicea (325 AD.) which lead to the official Christian recognition of the "Trinity" as the "true" nature of God, and the "fact" that Jesus (pbuh) was born on the 25th of December too.

In Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Gibbon says: "The Roman Christians, ignorant of his (Christ's) birth, fixed the solemn festival to the 25th of December, the Brumalia, or Winter Solstice, when the Pagans annually celebrated the birth of Sol " vol. ii, p. 383.
</font>
<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
so they christians 'borrowed' the day
as they knew the masses would celebrate either way
so they figured it was better
to slap a christian label on it
and just go with the flow.
the jews likewise 'borrowed' from older cultures around them, assyria, egypt, babylon.


(Message edited by admin on April 24, 2004)

#67 Guest_roo_*

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 10:34 PM

It is interesting that nothing is realy lost and even beliefs get recycled. It is going on as we speak with the Ayahuasca churches forming around the world.

#68 Guest_roo_*

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 11:26 PM

i would call that debatable.
it would be more accurate, imo,
to say the israelites are gone,
but some of the hebrew still remain.
only the tribes of judah and benjamin and a few levites
survived the conquest by the assyrians,
the other tribes never returned.
that's why they are called 'jews', after judah.
but they still speak the language
so it'd be hard to call them
a dead people, imo.


I see your point but I do know that the religion that went on to become Christianity, Judeism and Islam is gone. It was a religion based of the temple and temple worship by the time Christ came. Before that it was a tribal religion, they depended upon their religion and "GOD" to defend them against other tribes and their "GODS" or give them victory.

Circumstances changed and they have not stoped changing. I suspect that as the world got smaller religion got bigger. Tribes became nations, became empires and are quickly become a single world goverment wether we like it or not. It would certainly describe how these 3 religions have evolved over the past 2000 years. Modern Judeism is older than Christianity and Islam, thus it still maintains its roots in being one people, one culture, and they fight very hard to maintain this. Christianity and Islam have adherants from every race, nationalty, and culture on the planet. I would suspect this is becouse they came into existance at a later time, after Alexander the Great and later on, the Romans unified the old world. As peoples minds expanded to include the existance of a single human race, so did religion. Thus Christianity and Islam where born.

The old testement is just a history of a people told by its people, thats it. It contains legonds of their founders and heros that those not of that culture will most certainly misinterpert. I do not see the all compassing universal GOD described in christianity and islam in the OT. Its just not there nor was it ever ment to be there. I think this presents many problems when Christians decide to read the OT from a Christian view point. The GOD described in the OT by the hebrews was their GOD and only their GOD. They did not deny the existance of other GODS, but they believed that if they followed their GOD and his priests they would survive and prosper as a people. All of the peoples of that time had a national GOD and believed just the same way.

From my point of view the OT should only be looked at as the the cultural backdrop of who Jesus was and the culture he grew up in and not the message. SHure, he and his students recited the OT all throught the New Testament. It was the basis of their culture, and the culture of those who they where trying to teach. They knew its relavence to their own mission in life. Later on when this new faith moved out of the Lavant the OT was not included in the early church. It had no meaning to other cultures and peoples. I would suspect it may have been used to replace the history of other cultures to a point, to give some sense of cultural unity. Taken out of its cultural context the OT does look barbaric. But its not our culture, nor was it written to be read as "truth" by those not of that cultural background.

Just my opinion...



#69 Guest_omni_*

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 01:56 AM

Morella, I'm interested. I assume you have had some experiences with hallucinogens or you would not be here. Have your experiences with these substances tended to uphold your belief in the sort of God you have described? In other words, how do your experiences of the unfiltered universe correspond with your beliefs?

#70 Guest_omni_*

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 02:01 AM

"we are born with a knowledge of right and wrong"

"that's debatable, imho.
i think people have to be taught,
otherwise what is 'right'
becomes equivalent to
what is self-beneficial. "

I tend to think that another source of moral standards is an awareness of others' conciousness. This is an awareness that humans apparantly have more most other animals on earth, and it precludes a sort of golden rule basis for morality and ethical behavior. You don't have to be tought this, yet it is an awareness you develop. You aren't born with it.


#71 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 08:39 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Modern Judeism is older than Christianity and Islam, thus it still maintains its roots in being one people, one culture, and they fight very hard to maintain this. Christianity and Islam have adherants from every race, nationalty, and culture on the planet<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
too simple.
not all practitioners of judaism are of hebrew descent.
there are jewish folks of every race, nationality and culture, too. there are chinese jews, ethiopian jews, arab jews, russian jews, polish jews, french jews, american jews, etc.
there would be alot more jews too
if folks stopped killing them all off.


(Message edited by admin on April 24, 2004)

#72 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 08:44 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Later on when this new faith moved out of the Lavant the OT was not included in the early church. It had no meaning to other cultures and peoples. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
i'd have to strongly disagree.
have you actually studied the OT or read the koran ?
i have, both.
the koran is much more like the OT than it is NT. their god is nothing like the teachings of jesus.
much more like jehovah of old.
one cannot just chop off the OT
and pretend to know christianity.
the OT is much more than just
a history of a single nation.


(Message edited by admin on April 24, 2004)

#73 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 08:47 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I assume you have had some experiences with hallucinogens or you would not be here.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
it is her husband that is active,
she comes here because he does.
at least, originally.


(Message edited by admin on April 24, 2004)

(Message edited by admin on April 24, 2004)

#74 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 08:51 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I do know that the religion that went on to become Christianity, Judeism and Islam is gone. It was a religion based of the temple and temple worship by the time Christ came.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
the romans put an end to the temple,
but not the religion.
they still plan to rebuild the temple,
of course you are right in one sense,
they can no longer fulfill their religious duties
as there is no one who came prove they are a levite and thus fit to be high priest.
the romans burned all their records of geneology.

#75 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 08:53 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

You don't have to be tought this<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
i disagree.
ever raised a child ?
they must be taught to share,
taught to be kind,
what is natural
is selfishness.


#76 Guest_rodger_*

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 08:55 AM

I'm just curious why Americans and Europeans are still fantasizing over a religion whose god hates them and refers(through his 'son' of course) to the white race as 'dogs'. Jesus, if one chooses to believe the bible, clearly made the point that his message is only for Jews.

Christianity is obviously an ancient Middle Eastern local tribal religion, coming from the same area of the world as Judaism and Islam. Those people are the vilest racists that I've ever seen in my travels, and it's borne out in their religious beliefs.

Of course 'Jesus' wasn't born on Dec 25. There isn't ONE single shred of historical evidence to point to a human named Jesus regardless of birth date. And don’t fool yourselves; anyone who could walk on water and raise the dead would get LOTS of press. It's no secret the Christian religion was pagan in its early days. 'Jesus' came just as the equinoxes were, by precession, entering into Pisces, the sign of the fish. It's no surprise therefore that Jesus' early disciples were all fishermen, and he said, "come with me, and I'll make you fishers of men". The earth will remain in Pisces for 2160 years. The Catholic Church even used astronomical calculations to determine the starting date for our calendar by the way, and missed the date by six years. We will finally move out of Pisces and into Aquarius in 2154.

Remember, prior to Pisces, the earth was in the sign of the 'ram' for 2160 years. The Jewish religion was developed/evolved during this time and therefore the sacraments of dripping lambs blood on a doorpost, sacrificing lambs, etc. and of course, to end the era, Jesus was the 'lamb for sinners slain'.

I could go on and on, but frankly anyone who has a bible can read it on his own and see the obvious. The three 'great' western religions are blasphemous in their claim to represent god to the masses. If one wishes to meet 'god' one must seek god. Lazy or stupid people need not apply. It's a long hard journey. For any church to say, "come here, memorize these 'memory verses', put your money in the plate, confess whatever it we tell you to, and you'll go to the 'heaven' we've invented", commits blasphemy against the true powers that hold this universe together.

The world and the universe are far larger than even the most vivid imaginations of a group of uneducated sand rats in the Middle Eastern desert thousands of years ago. How dare those bastards try to tell me how to live my life in the twenty first century, and promise mass murder to any who don’t step in line with their bullshit.



#77 Guest_roo_*

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 09:10 AM

too simple.
not all practitioners of judaism are of hebrew descent.
there are jewish folks of every race, nationality and culture, too. there are chinese jews, ethiopian jews, arab jews, russian jews, polish jews, french jews, american jews, etc.
there would be alot more jews too
if folks stopped killing them all off.


Hmmm.... You may have me here.


#78 Guest_roo_*

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 12:33 PM

i'd have to strongly disagree.
have you actually studied the OT or read the koran ?
i have, both.
the koran is much more like the OT than it is NT. their god is nothing like the teachings of jesus.
much more like jehovah of old.
one cannot just chop off the OT
and pretend to know christianity.
the OT is much more than just
a history of a single nation.


I have given both the Koran and the OT much study. What I am trying to say more than anything is that without knowing the cultural and historical bias of both works they are wide open to be misunderstood, not only by us but by those who believe them and give them power.

As far as the Koran goes, it seems barbaric if one does not know how it related to the history of early Islam. Things must be placed in their proper historical and cultural context. If one just picks and chooses verses out of the "whole" without knowing WHY they where spoken things can become very dangerous. I hear people everyday doing this with the OT and the koran. I can find many verses in the Koran that say to kill the non believer. I hear both Bin Ladin and people like Pat Robertson using such verses in both books to justify genocide. THey are done so without knowing at what time in histroy they where revieled. Islam began as a very peacefull religion, and before the Higera muslims where not allowed to fight, even though they where violently oppressed. It was only after they went to Medina where they allowed to fight for their rights. EVen then, the muslims did not start the fight or break the treaties they had made.

I am just saying that without knowing when and why these books where revieled the knowlege they contain is realy meaningless. The Koran is very confusing if one does not know this. One verse or chapter speaks of turning the other cheek, and another speaks of fighting back to the end.

The Koran speaks of an event where an adulter was stoned to death. If I read this and take it out of the context that it was given, I might think this to be early Islamic law and it is not. A group of Jews came to the prophet for advise regarding an adulter, they hoped he might be able to spare them. He basicly told them that since they "revere" the Torah, base their culture on it, they should follow it and not try to find ways to read into the law what is not there. They, the muslims and the jews stoned the people in guestion to death. I consider this to be compleatly justified becouse it was the law of the people in question. If these people want to live the law, than they should do so word for word and deed for deed and not be hypocrits. It was written for the Jews alone and as far as the early Muslims went they did not stone people to death for adultery. They just tied the people in question to a post and the whole community beat them with their sandles.

I am of the opinion that those who want to believe such things should live them and not try to sugar coat them. If one wants to believe in this "GOD" I have no problem with them as long as they do it wholeheartedly and do not become hypocrits. If they want to form their own communities and live this law they should be encouraged to do so, just do not try to tell me I have to follow it, becouse I do not believe in it.

They should stone their people to death if the law they follow states this should be done. The law also says that woman should not be allowed to even debate the law or disagree with their husbands in such matters. Under penalty of a good beating at best. They should follow it to the letter just as those who wrote it down said they should.

I personaly want nothing to do with any of these semetic religions, they have no meaning for me. I was born in the middle of the 20th century in a very differant culture. I know that the earth is round, and is not the center of the universe. I know why humans do the things they do. I can jump on a plane today and be anywhere in the world in less than 24 hours. I can go next door and talk to a jew, behind me I can go and speak to a Christian and on the other side I can go and talk to a Native American person.

Hippie, from my own experiance I just cannot see the point in these "religions" anymore. I was raised in 2 of them and I have found nothing in them I can realy believe whole with all my heart and soul. Shure, the moral laws are the basis of having an orderly society. I agreee with this, but I also know that they are a part of almost every human belief system.

the OT is much more than just
a history of a single nation


I do not undertand this. It is not the history of my nation. It is not even the history of forfathers who came from eastern europe and south western asia. What meaning should it have to me to know this history? My peoples history was destroyed by these people. Be they the "heathens" of prechristian europe or the Zoestorians of Persia; christianity and islam destroyed entire cultures and replaced their history with the history of a small "tribe" that existed over 2000 years ago. What kind of BS is this, its not who my forfathers where but rather who they where forced to be at the end if a sword. The same goes for the native peoples here who have had their own history made meaningless at a much later time.

This is just the problems I see in the past. What about the hear and now? If the OT was my history and I was Jewish why can I not go to Israel and steal other peoples land, it was promised to me and my people and from what I read in my peoples history I am allowed to by my GOD to utterly destroy entire cultures to do this. I can see them as not being human beings becouse my GOD says I can. The same goes for Islam. The prophet said that all jews and christians should be purged from the area of Mecca and Medina if they do not believe and convert.

Why Why WHY!!! Over 3000 or our own people died on sept 11th becouse of BS just like this. They where members of almost every culture on this earth. In the eyes of Bin Ladin he had a GOD given right to do this.

As screwed up as I sometimes think my own nation is sometimes, I am still proud to be an American and beyond such things. It is true we still have a long way to go, but compaired to the rest of the world, we are on the right track. We are born free and equal, we do not have to follow a state religion and we can change our religion anytime we want to or believe nothing at all. We can build places of worship etc.

Although there are those out there who may disagree with me. I believe that our nation and the principles it stands for are the future of humanity if it wants to survive. Our laws are based on past religions, but we are not forced to believe any one GOD gave them to us. We are not forced to live by any one religion or system.

I believe this is the reason we have succeded and the reason we are the most powerfull nation on earth. Becouse we see the worth in each and every human being here. This concept is not a perfict one, nor has it even been followed throught our history to the extent that it sould have been, but it is a part of who we are. ANYONE can make it here, live and be happy becouse we are all seen as humans before all else. "ONE NATION OUT OF MANY". Look at our troups in Iraq, they are Christians, muslims, jews, pagans etc. I might even go so far as to say our suprime religion is that of freedom and that is what we are there fighting for.

Again, I am shure there are those who may disagree with me on this. But, its great being free to do this and its also great to be able to do this and not have the cultural context brought in the OT or the Koran that makes us less human if we do not follow these religions. We realy do live in a great nation that is the future of humanity. Imagine how much bloodshed and pain could avoided.

Iran is a fine example of this. The people in Iran want what we have and are about to shed their own blood to have this happen. It will happen sooner than most people think. China is in the same boat. Right now, in Iran, you could be put to death if they find you growing weed. You could also be put to death if you decide to convert to another religion or follow no religion at all. You could be put into prison for listening to western popular music or reading books not santioned by the goverment.

If one thinks about these concepts our nation was built on one can see why the "powers that be" in those nations hate us so bad and want very much to destroy us. This is no lie, there are people in high places that want us gone. People with the power to do this if they get the chance.

In the past 10 years I have pretty much given up on the religious teaching I was given. I have seen too much of what it all leads to and I happen to live in a modern nation. I have science and thought. I do not have to look far to see there is an order to the universe that some people call GOD. I have seen wonders beyond anything any other human has ever seen in the past. Be it in the workings of nature or the experiances I have had in life. Like I said, I was born in the here and now, not 1500 or 2000 years ago. I have more reasons to search for the divine than even those people did and I am not limited my any one culture.

I am not saying I do not believe in GOD, nor am I putting down those who do live by these books. All I am saying is that one has to read them for what they are and interpert them in the historical and cultural context they where written. I cannot see how one can take the concepts in those books into the here and now without misinterperting them at best, or using them to justify ones own hatreds and having a feeling of being superior.

Like I have said before, I love you all and hate no one here or in my real life for that matter. I want to tell Morella that I mean her no pain or sorrow in these "rants". It is just that I believe that I must prove all things through my own experiances and the mind GOD gave me. I cannot take this book or that one and say "this is IT!". Its not that simple for me to just have blind faith and believe. I have to experiance it and let it roll around in my mind before I believe in anything, and even then I sometimes find that its just a bunch of BS. I am shure you are a wonderfull wife and possibly a mother. Your being married to one with such differnat beliefs is proof enough to me that you are not a bible thumper. You have a conection to the divine, we all do. Just take some time try to find this conection. It does not take as much time as you may think. There have been MANY people in your own faith who have done this and have found great peace in it. I too went through a point in my where I felt like I had to prove my faith by doing what you are doing here. I was not even trying to prove it to others in reality but rather to myself by the agreement or disagreement of others. In the end all that realy matters is who you are, everone else does not matter in this regard and you have nothing to prove to them.

(I hope that this is readable. I have another rant for another topic in that I have not had my "medication" in the past few weeks. I am stuck to the "chair" again, woke up this morning with no sight in my left eye and my fingers are not working the way they should. A group of friends is supposed to come through for me today and I hope they do. I have heard that montell Williams has come out as being in pretty much the same situation. This is a good thing and I hope his doing this will help change the way things are now. )

#79 Guest_roo_*

Guest_roo_*
  • Guest

Posted 24 April 2004 - 12:54 PM

Those people are the vilest racists that I've ever seen in my travels, and it's borne out in their religious beliefs.

I agree with you on this point, but not all of them are like this. To some Jews they are the only humans on this earth and everyone else is just an animal. To others, who undertand why their ansestors had to be like this, they could care less about such nonsense. Jews have contribulted much to the betterment of mankind. At least those who understand the basic facts of science and nature, which happen to be the great majority of them outselde of Israel. Within Israel it is a differant story, those people would not be there if they thought they where equal to the rest of us. But even there, not everyone is like that and things are changing becouse their children do dot share the same belief in the nonsense found in the Talamad.


#80 Guest_hippie3_*

Guest_hippie3_*
  • Guest

Posted 25 April 2004 - 08:58 AM

any sentence that starts with
'those people are'
is also a racist statement.
you can't lump individuals together like that
and make broad over-generalizations
and have it hold true for all.





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