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Removing Tannins in Ayahuasca:jello: finished


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#41 I_am_me

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 09:44 PM

I should probably just wait till you finish posting it, but curiousity kills me. What ratio of lemon juice to water are you going to use?

#42 Hippie3

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 11:13 PM

added almost 3 tablespoons to a full crockpot
materials
less the caapi
are soaking at room temp
pending addition of the caapi.
need to find ph strips to get a reading
but fairly confident it's close to good.
had to use local water which is fairly alkaline
so extra acid helps.

#43 phalanx

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 05:37 AM

Those pics are cool, cant wait for more!!!!!!!!:cool: :cool: :cool:

I noticed that the ground leaves arent half as fine as i get them with my coffee grinder. Do you grind less on purpose? I go 30 seconds.

That amount of herbs would be 4 doses for me!

#44 Hippie3

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 05:41 AM




not as coarse as it looks, mostly powder
but some always is less fine.
good enough.

i figure 3 doses,
drink 1 and see how it goes.
if needed
call for reinforcements.

#45 Hippie3

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 12:44 PM

already getting my head situated
dl mickey hart's planet drum into my 'pod
got it playing shuffle/repeat as i work on my brew
the caapi came out of the pc pretty soft and pliable,
am easily shredding it by hand into thin strips
then using scissors to chop them into slivers/splinters.
the brew in the quart looked pretty strong
more pix in a bit,
once i finish chopping caapi.
the music will be my guide.
think i'll light up some incense...
:bow:

#46 dozuki

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 04:13 PM

exactly how many grams to use per liter
is still an unsolved variable.

The amount of gelatin to use should be based off of the amount of tannins that are extracted. I believe this is most useful with MHRB as an acid or MeOH extraction as it will yeild about 28-29% tannins by weight of the starting material. You want to use a 1:1 tannin:gelatin ratio, or a little less gelatin, too much gelatin and it will suspend in the solution and turn it milky. I don't know the tannin content of vine, Chacruna or Chalaponga, but I'm sure its not nearly as much as MHRB. The red coloration in MHRB extractions is the tannins. Here's my findings on MHRB and tannin precip, this is taken from e-dot forums:

Re: Tannins
Preciptation of tannins (Fining as it called in wine making):
Fining uses gelatin to precipitate tannins out of solutions. Tannins will complex with metals, proteins, and Alkaloids forming a polymer that is insoluable to the aqueous solution and will fall out (sticking to anything it comes into contact with). The pH ranges are:
Iron - pH 3 - 5
Alkaloids - pH 4 - 6
Protein - pH 3 - 6
Above and below these levels, they will still precip out, but possibly not as effectively. Starting with a MeOH extraction of material (MHRB for example); you need to first determine the amount of tannins in the extract. For this example (with MeOH) you should extract about 29% tannins by weight of starting material (MHRB). A gelatin solution should be prepared that has about this amount of gelatin or a little less disolved in H2O (just enough HOT H2O to disolve the gelatin). Pure gelatin is prefered so as not to contaminate the extraction with unnecessary compounds. The addition of a small amount of dilute acid to the MeOH extraction would be usefull to give the solution a bit of acidity. Then, the addition of the gelatin solution to the MeOH will precipitate out a red polymer that when removed from the solution will solidify into a hard solid ball after being squeezed of MeOH solution. The MeOH will now be much clearer than before, but will still retain some tannins. Leaving the MeOH to sit in the freezer over night will precipitate another tannin complex that is blue in color. The MeOH can be decanted off with a few mls retaining this tannin complex. Quickly heating this little bit of solution on a HOT water bath will polymerize this new complex and the polymer removed and the residual MeOH added to the decanted MeOH. This then is left to sit for a period of time (at least a week) while more tannins slowly preciptate out of the solution. Fining wine calls for the wine to 'settle' for 2 weeks. At this point the solution can be filter or decanted to have an extraction that has the majority of the tannins removed. Some things to note are:
1) Too much gelatin and you are left with a solution that contains the leftover gelatin.
2) This should not be done in flasks as the polymers will stick to the sides of the glass and make cleaning the flask either hard or impossible (don't ask me how I know )
3) This should work fine for H2O or acid extractions, but then the amount of tannins extracted has to be calculated/weighed. Different extraction solvents will extract more or less tannins. The most effective for tannins specifically would be Acetone:H2O (70:30)


-D.

#47 Hippie3

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 06:49 PM

the caapi's done
before pc'ing
DSCN0808.JPG
after pc'ing
DSCN0810.JPG

shredded vine by twisting/bending sections
DSCN0812.JPG

chopped vine threads with scissors
DSCN0813.JPG

finished hand shredding/chopping
DSCN0816.JPG

after running bits thru coffee grinder
DSCN0818.JPG

into the brew
DSCN0819.JPG

#48 phalanx

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 05:28 AM

Looking good. Did putting wet caapi in coffee grinder cause any problems?

#49 Hippie3

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 07:59 AM

not really
used a plastic fork
[never stick a metal tool/fingers in plugged-in grinder heh]
to remove matted powder between loads
went pretty fast

#50 rocketman

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 12:21 PM

This is a stupid question: When you pcd the caapi to tenderize, do you not lose much of the magic of the vine in the jar you use? or Do you just add the water the caapi was soaked and pcd in to the brew?

#51 Hippie3

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 12:22 PM

Do you just add the water the caapi was soaked and pcd in to the brew?


yep

#52 Hippie3

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 01:11 PM

ok,
first run-thru is complete,
drained off the brew thru cloth
here's what we have-


that's being evaporated down on a very low heat.
crockpot was re-filled with fresh water and another teaspoon of lemon juice
to make a second run-thru.

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#53 rocketman

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 01:17 PM

Total crock time of how long?

#54 Hippie3

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 01:19 PM

so far ?
about 12 hours hot and 12 hours cold [overnight soak]
so ~24 hours on first run

#55 rocketman

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 01:37 PM

Yes so far, I think time may be an important factor to keep tabs on. Thanks :)

#56 phalanx

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 03:12 PM

I like the cuddly toy in the corner of the last pic :)

I noticed you are using a glass pot to cook down in. Any advantage over stainless steel?

When you adding the gelatin? I thought it was to the first extraction while still hot, before reduction.

#57 Hippie3

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 04:13 PM

plan to add the gelatin to the combined total extraction
before beginning any serious reduction.
the 1st wash isn't really cooking down yet,
more like just evaporating a little.
most will still be there when combined tomorrow

but still extracting ATM
:)
i just used the glass to give a better picture,
have a larger stainless pot
where the washes will be combined for reduction

#58 Hippie3

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Posted 26 March 2006 - 12:38 PM

ok
2nd wash is finis

this is wash 1 after evaporating overnight->


this is wash 2 ->
DSCN0830.JPG

both have been combined and are evaporating
the final wash, #3 is underway.
btw each wash ~= 64 fl. ounces water,
as much as the crockpot will hold
given amount of material used.

all three washes will be combined
then the gelatin will be added.
more pix tomorrow.
launch the following day [tuesday] in the early AM
god willing.

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#59 Hippie3

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Posted 27 March 2006 - 08:09 PM

ok, 3rd wash is done & combined with others
on stove on very low heat to evap down
no pix yet
can't fit in the glass pan yet
once i boil off enough to fit that pot
i'll do the jello and shoot some more pix,
hopefully late tonight or early morning.
then it's off to the races,
i'm psyched
wish me luck
:bow:

#60 mycobri

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Posted 27 March 2006 - 11:29 PM

Good Luck. Checking this thread the most...




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