161 replies to this topic

[WeedyResin]

Streetsweeper... hehehehehe

[Hippie3]

There was no hostility in that question at all, where do you get that? Did I call him a name? did I accuse him of anything? I was suprised that's all.
Chill, friend.:hippie:

your question subtly implied much.
'how can you not know'
implies that he should know
if he's not lying or stupid.
that's the implication,
i got it,
he likely would too.
so you chill, friend.
i call 'em as i see 'em.
you rode in
and started picking his post apart.
i'm no IRA marksman ex-soldier
but i knew you were wrong
about carbines.
that's all i'm saying.

[Beast]

I agree that 'carbine' is a more narrowly defined term than 'rifle' is.

I disagree that is is an 'awfully technical quibble'.

Now you are putting pistols and howitzers in the same category as rifles... seems you're being too broad. Machine guns are generally not referred to as rifles either yet they also have rifling as well...

any weapon having rifling is a rifle. if it doesn't, it's a smooth-bore, a gun.

[malefacter]

The only thing you need is a .410 pump. this is great for smaller critters. I do hunt and I own four guns. The only ones I use ar my Winchester Model 94 30-30 and my Savage .410/.22 over and under. This takes care of everything you would like to do. I have a 12 ga pump and a .44 Ruger self loader that I never use.

stick with 12 ga its easy to find amo and reloading stuff for it and usualy you can get it for less than all the other guages its also the most versatle shotgun

[Hippie3]

sub-categories of weapons falling under general classification.
first thing they taught me in boot camp
was the difference between my rifle and my gun.
if you're a soldier
then you know what i mean.
;)

[mushit]

stick with 12 ga its easy to find amo and reloading stuff for it and usualy you can get it for less than all the other guages its also the most versatle shotgun

Thats a good point. But I have really never had a problem finding .410 shot.
It also depends on the use. Bush hunting, wide open varmint hunting, or just target practice. I agree the 12 ga can be used for all of these.

[Hippie3]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A rifle is a firearm that uses a spiral groove cut into the barrel to spin a projectile (usually a bullet), thus improving accuracy and range of the projectile. It is the same principle that causes a rugby ball or an American football to be more accurate when thrown correctly. Examples of non-rifled firearms are shotguns and muskets.
The word "rifle" originally referred to the grooving, which was called "rifling" (compare "riffle" and "ripple"); originally a rifle was called a "rifled gun".

note the only requirements are that it be a firearm
and it has rifling.
so if we want to be extremely technical
a pistol is indeed a 'rifle'.
it's a sub-type of rifle
defined by it's short compact structure.

[mushit]

Most pistols have rifling as well.

[Hippie3]

exactly.

[Beast]

Wait first you say you were taught in Boot Camp to distinguish between your rifle and your gun, but then you say its ok to call howitzers and pistols rifles? Something doesn't line up here, imo. But you go ahead and call things what you want and I'll go ahead and call things what I want, sure I was mistaken about the carbine/pistol ammo thing, but see how many people give you a wierd look at the gun store when you ask to see the rifle under the counter and point at the pistol display.
Anyways, all I was trying to do was help clarify some technical issues, and was suprised the guy didn't know what model his gun was, as that is the pronoun most firearms are referred to as. Just as he was doing, yet it was incorrect, hence my suprise. Neither I did say anything about not knowing equalling proof of his ignorance or stupidity. If anything I was thinking he had been mislead by the salesperson, yet still didn't understand as the make and model of the gun is generally on some paperwork somewhere, receipt, box, manual, ATF Paperwork, etc. I'm sorry you perceived hostility in my post, but perhaps you were in the heat of the moment from the issue that arised earlier in this thread.
So, back on topic... shotguns don't explode small game unless you use the wrong ammo...

[Hippie3]

the point you missed is that often people speaking in the common tongue
use terms rather loosely.
while, technically speaking, any firearm with rifling is a rifle,
folks would think you were nuts if you call a pistol a rifle.

they are speaking common, not techie

the same can be said for our good friend
who referred to his weapon as a carbine,
he was speaking common, too.

you chose to go techie,
and show him just how wrong he was.
but now i go even moreso
you can see the definition i posted.
i did not
just make that up
to win this argument.

[Beast]

No you didn't make it up, but you certainly do seem to be taking the 'technical quibbling' to a new level, and in my perception are being rather hostile about it. I even appologized for being overly technical in my first post, rather than hammering him over and over with post after post of what he did wrong. Specifically so that it wouldn't seem like I was "showing him just how wrong he was", like you seem to be doing with me. I was trying to share my knowledge with him so that he might be able to do so more effectively with others, and explain where I was coming from to say such things.
So anyways, back on topic...
I've heard that .410s have a nasty kick, less gun to absorb the shock than with the bigger 12 gauge... comments?

[suckerfree]

here's my mossberg


if you are looking for personal protection in the car, i'd go with a handgun.

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[Hippie3]

now THIS is a 'rifle'-
The M40A1 106mm Recoilless Rifle
with Spotting Rifle M8C and Mount M79
http://mycotopia.net...53&d=1143003221

couldn't resist.
my apologies, beastmaster.
i just love to argue.
:bow:
i'm done now.

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[negativezer0]

First of all, hopefully you know guns do not always go with "killing things" they are tools and have various purposes.

As for self protection in the car, I recommend a rifle. It is capable of punching through most or all parts of your attacker's car and has a MUCH higher capacity. Some people are also more comfortable with a rifle and it's lower kick (usually) than with a defensive 12/20ga shotgun.

An AR type rifle with a holographic sight would be your best bet. It is light, easy to "shoulder" has very low recoil and the sights are easy to use.

A shotgun would be heavier, longer and more bulky and have less capacity.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for self protection at your house you have a different set of circumstances. Do you have neighbors close by? Where are your bullets/shot going to go? Are the walls of your house tile, drywall, etc?

Shotguns are powerful and wonderful weapons for close combat, when you score hits of course. Shotguns have high recoil and it takes a more experienced shooter in my opinion to score hits with one. I own a 12 gauge tactical style shotgun and I am accurate with it because of practice and my natural ability to be accurate with a long arm rifle/shotgun.

In most defensive situations, I think rifles top shotguns in almost every way.

1. Shotguns are lower capacity
2. recoil much harder
3. can be harder to get lead on target for some versus a rifle.
4. heavier, harder to carry
5. more awkward to reload

But, in a defensive close range situation both a shotgun and a rifle should work well. But, for combat, i consider a rifle to be more versatile. For sporting purposes I consider a shotgun to have more purpose. Shotguns were invented for killing birds, not people. Rifles were made for long range, but modern rifles have been cut down to very small sizes and are appropriate for close combat unlike in the past.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Rifles are easier to reload as well and with the weight of a rifle with two full 60 round magazines you probably have the same weight as a shotgun loaded with 8 rounds.

that’s a big difference if you ask me. combat is determined by how much "lead" you can put on target, the amount of capacity and your skill in combat and your skill with your particular weapon.

But, I caught 2 totally different things you are attempting to do:

1. (protection during) a, "long cross country drive"
2. "small game hunting"

the type of firearm is dictitated by what kind of game you are hunting for... prairie dogs you use a rifle, for rabbits you use a shotgun...

but for protection, I think the rifle really does have the upper hand.

12gauge shotguns have quite a strong recoil for a lot of people and a 20 gauge shotgun has a much more tame kick. I have owned 2 12 gauged shotguns and 1 20gauge and the kick is very different.

for defensive shotguns you want to have:

a recoil reducing stock if possible (the knoxx specops is a great stock for this)

extra ammo (usually carried in or on the stock, and along the chamber called a side saddle)

a light (for identification of a possible attacker, blinding your attacker and also if there is no possible way to illuminate the room)


* the sights on the shotgun are not as important as long as you can hit targets with it well; and that comes with practice...

* you could probably use a tactical style shotgun for rabbit hunting if you were familiar with it enough.

i would shoot both, reload both under simulated stress and consider afterwards after you have put live rounds downrange and seen what damage a shotgun does versus a rifle. I would have BOTH and keep the rifle in the car and the house and keep the shotgun for the house and for hunting. The wife would get the rifle and i would handle the shotgun if someone broke in.

i have shot at a broken down car out in the desert and i saw it's ability against a hard target. Slugs went through the doors fairly easily but who knows their effectiveness afterwards. I do not know how well 00 buck would perform. After this experience, i think rifles are better for protection in the car.

handle/shoot/reload/carry a 12, 20 gauge shotgun and a semiautomatic rifle and weight it out for yourself. If you need a RIFLE for hunting bolt actions are very accurate and should work well...

some popular choices for 12 gauge defensive shotguns are:

benelli nova, m1, m4 models
remington 870 (police version reccomended) and 1187 (semi-auto)
mossberg 500/590 series (590 is more geared for defense and said to be higher quality)

mossberg makes a model 500 in 20ga and it might take all the same accessories as the 12ga mossberg 500-590 shotguns...

as for semiautomatic rifles:

AR family (a15 .223, ar10 .308)
SKS
AK 47 (7.62mm) and the AK-74 (5.45mm)
keltec su-16
galil

bolt action rifles:

remington 700 (one of the most popular)
winchester
savage

[muffy]

beasty, my gun has 'glock' engraved on the side , and is included in the manual as well.
it is classified as a sub machinegun/rifle... straight from the manual...and is listed to be capable of hunting many small game animals.

[Beast]

Ok, I'll take your word for it. But if you go to www.glock.com, you'll not find anything like whats in your picture on their site. If you go to www.kel-tek.com you'll find an identical model to the one you pictured.

Sorry if I seemed uppity, but to me you were calling a Daihatsu a BMW. Perhaps my understanding of the products offered by those companies is flawed, but I doubt it.

Did some reading at the Kel-tec site, and the SUB-2000 comes in various configurations to be compatible with various pistol magazines. I'm betting yours is made to fit Glock magazines. That explains the mixup!

[mushit]

I've heard that .410s have a nasty kick, less gun to absorb the shock than with the bigger 12 gauge... comments?

This can be true with any gun. My 12 ga is very light and will take the shoulder off you if you are not ready. My .410 on the other hand weighs about the same as the 12 ga and has much less kick. Depends on the gun you are using. They all have different characteristics.

[synth]

idk, i have a Beretta A391 xtrema2 synthetic stock.
i like it. the gel-ish pad in the butt is nice.
anti-recoil stuffs.
http://mycotopia.net...=1&d=1143015541


http://www.berettaus...trema2_main.htm < - more info

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[Hippie3]

if high recoil is a concern, i recommend modern automatic shotguns
over pumps.
a remington 1100 12 ga. automatic shotgun

has very little recoil,
ditto for a mossberg 9200.
both use a gas-powered [powered by the firing of the shell]
anti-recoil system
which is highly effective.