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Cinnamon as Anti Microbial/Antifungal Substrate mix + Bee Pollen


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#21 Justintime

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 08:39 PM

WHoah! Were just having an intelligent post conversation here. Nobody is pissing in your cheerios. And Volatile Oils are what give things there smell, they are not dangerous and in every spice out there. Volatile just means it goes readily into vapor at room temp, not that it is explosive or harmful, so of course they would not be pulled from the supermarket shelves.

That being said, I love what you're doing. This is science, trial and error is the only true science. Make proper notes and keep us posted! Awesome job.
:headbang:


Sure, some people wouldnt know that, including me.And thanks.
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#22 Justintime

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 02:22 AM

Hi, making the mix up tonight but here are some update pics of how the two subs are going. The one in the jar has'nt had a soak with Cinnamon infusion although cinnamon is in the substrate ,I can see some bright white places in there, this could turn into Trich, if it does it will get a soak in Cinnamon infusion. The exposed jar has held together very well, I believe the mycelium has grown from within as without. No contams as yet and the Mycelium is doing well ,I have checked to see if it dissloves with Peroxide on a cotton bud and it doesnt, also the Cobweb I get here has very long, course filamentation which grows extremely fast. One is from this morning and the rest last night. Pics have info on when taken if you click on them.Cheers. At the moment I also have a thick bracelet made of pure silver sitting in a large jar of water which I intend to use to mist with as well as use this water to make my Cinnamon infusion.

This morning 20 Oct . You can see the fine filamentations of Mycelium reaching out
( Just enjoying the oxygen and moisture?)

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Different view 19 Oct midnight.
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19 Oct Midnight, the top you can see is actually from the bottom of the jar, it is less inhabited by Mycelium beacause there was a little too much moisture in the bottom of the jar.
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Canning jar size 31, no top. Taken 19 Oct Midnight ( Innoculated with Liquid Mycelium solution taken from honey water suspension on the 7th october).
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Same Jar and time, Different angle.
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Top of Same jar. Same time. You can see the Mycelium growing into the verm already.
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I originally had a piece of synthetic weed mat covering the top of these, held down with a rubber band. It came in handy when I wanted to turn the jars upside down in order to disperse any excess liquid from the bottom of the jar without losing any verm. I did have to be careful and hold the mat and rubber band tight in case they popped off. I decided they didnt need it after a while, when the Jar is more saturated with Mycelium growth I intend to soak it with infused Cinnamon water, drain it and turn it out as with the other sub.

BTW one of my Domes I found at the dump, it is a child's Lego bucket. The red dome is the covering of an antique Fire brigade alarm, the ones they used to have on the trucks I believe.

#23 Justintime

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 02:24 AM

When I test with Peroxide with this sub it is easy to mistake fizzling for Cobweb but it is actually the Peroxide reacting with the sugars. ie; Barley syrup and Bee Pollen.

#24 Justintime

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 09:17 AM

I promised details of making up a new sub for tonight but it will have to wait, all in good time. Instead I am posting some valuable info on other organic Antibacterial/Antifungals some are also good choices for thier pesticidal value. Enjoy.

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#25 iamsmiley

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 02:43 PM

When I test with Peroxide with this sub it is easy to mistake fizzling for Cobweb but it is actually the Peroxide reacting with the sugars. ie; Barley syrup and Bee Pollen.

the fizzling that happens with peroxide use is when bacteria has the peroxidase enzyme and its being broken down from my understanding.sugar DOES NOT react with peroxide(i did a little experiment to show you) but it may be reacting with bacteria in your bee pollen.

Attached Thumbnails

  • peroxide and sugar.jpg


#26 Justintime

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 08:43 PM

the fizzling that happens with peroxide use is when bacteria has the peroxidase enzyme and its being broken down from my understanding.sugar DOES NOT react with peroxide(i did a little experiment to show you) but it may be reacting with bacteria in your bee pollen.


I shouldnt have assumed. But it is reacting with something in my sub.
I just made up the basic additives and tested them, no reaction with Cinnamon, Pollen, Barley Malt Syrup or Maize flour. All I can guess is that it is reacting with the dead Trich cells that were there before I soaked it in the Infusion or Fungal spore that has come into contact with the sub. I re-checked the Mycelium this morning with a cotton bud soaked in six percent Peroxide. The Medium still reacts and seems to desolve. The Mycelium is unafected, perhaps a little wetted down. I watched a strand of Mycelium stay intact as I brushed the Cotton bud over it a number of times. I really dont find it important at the moment as long as I dont get contams and the Mycelium grows. But thanks for pointing out that important fact.

#27 Justintime

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 09:04 PM

Updates of the experiments. The exposed sub has grown alot in the last 24 hrs. The unlidded jar is comming along at a steady pace.No visible contams.

Attached Thumbnails

  • 20 Oct M.Night Jar.jpg
  • 20 Oct Midnight 3.jpg


#28 Justintime

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 09:15 PM

These two pics are from this morning. 21 Oct from different angles of exposed sub. You should be able to see where I used 6% Peroxide on the Mycelium and it is still there, just a little wetted down.You will notice dark red on the bottom of the sub, this is Cinnamon, the Mycelium so far hasnt grown on it. This is there because when I filled the jar with the infusion of Cinnamon I didnt filter the particles from the Infusion. Also the top of the sub ( which was originaly the bottom) is still a tad bit damp and still drying out. As it dries out a little More Mycelium should take off there. I intend to fit an air vent into the top of the red dome for more air exchange and lowering humidity.Thanks.

Attached Thumbnails

  • Oct 21 Morning 2.jpg
  • Oct 21 Morning.jpg

Edited by Justincase, 20 October 2010 - 09:31 PM.


#29 Justintime

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 12:18 PM

Hello, Just a photo update of the exposed sub taken one AM Oct 23rd. I am thinking of calling him/her "Cousin It".BTW the spore I innoculated with are a Texan/Mex strain, I dont know what it looks like yet. Not bad growth rate considering its only 16 days old, who knows how many spores were shot into it tho, maybe twenty that I could see, but then I am a Noob so maybe its normal.

I have just filled the other sub jar with a Cinnamon infusion and will have pics of that up tomorrow. This time I have made sure there were minimal particles of cinnamon in the liquid so to prevent Mycelium being blocked from growing on the surface such as the bottom of the already exposed sub.Thanks

No.1 23rd Oct one AM Side view.jpg

No.2 23rd Oct one AM Top view.jpg

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  • 23rd Oct one AM Top view.jpg
  • 23rd Oct one AM Side view.jpg


#30 SuperiorObligation

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 12:41 PM

I've never heard of cinnamon being used as a substrate, very clever idea!

Also, you might want to check your math on the contents of cinnamon.

3.6g Carbohydrates + 2.48g Dietary Fiber > 4.52g Cinnamon

Hmm... it seems these values are proportionate... yet it doesn't add up?
Soooo confused right now.


"Bee pollen is also an additive in my substrate . The way I figure it, most mushrooms have adapted thier fruiting clock according to the seasons, or when the first rains of autumn arrive. The colder times could very well be signaling that the pollen in the air left over from spring and summer is being cleansed from the atmosphere and washed into the soil providing nutrient"
- Interesting Hypothesis, but it makes sense.

Edited by SuperiorObligation, 22 October 2010 - 12:53 PM.
math confusion


#31 mycowarrier

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 03:44 PM

The pic four posts up named "20 Oct midnight 3" appears to have contamination especially on the top.

The later pic "23rd oct one AM side view" seems to show "aerial myc" growing from the top of the cake. I believe that is regrowth of the blue-green contam in previous pic. prolly Penicillium.

I may be wrong and wait for more opionions.
Use your enlargement feature (+) on pics.

Edited by mycowarrier, 22 October 2010 - 03:58 PM.


#32 bent

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 09:02 PM

i no expert but i agree with mycowarrier. that looks way too fuzzy to be myc.

#33 Justintime

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 09:17 PM

The pic four posts up named "20 Oct midnight 3" appears to have contamination especially on the top.

The later pic "23rd oct one AM side view" seems to show "aerial myc" growing from the top of the cake. I believe that is regrowth of the blue-green contam in previous pic. prolly Penicillium.

I may be wrong and wait for more opionions.
Use your enlargement feature (+) on pics.


I think you are seeing shadowing where the Mycelium is not thick, it tends to turn out looking grey in photo's. The Mycelium growing on top is the same as all over. This sub has an unusual color because of ingredients used. Some of the yellow areas have fooled me for yellow slime mold but on closer inspection have turned out to be pieces of pine wood shaving.The reason the top has been a little slower to grow Myc is because when it was in the jar ,it was actually the bottom and had a little extra moisture concentrated there. The longer I have it exposed, the more it dries out and the Myc takes hold there. As you can see with the lower part of the sub,there is Cinnamon there and the Myc is not taking hold in that area. This is because I didnt strain the cinnamon particles from the infusion when I soaked its original jar. I have learnt the only way to strain the particles is to use a stocking and squeeze the cooled infusion out to be rid of the cinnamon particles. The Mycelium will not grow on condensed areas of Cinnamon particle. I am quite confident I wont get contams, I look at the sub around four times a day right next to an area where I have had Cobweb outbreaks as well as Trich and also some kind of dark mold. Think of it like this, if the Mycelium of a Mushroom wont grow on the Cinnamon particles left over from soaking the jar, how are any contams going to grow on the Substrate? The only thing I have to be aware of is that once the substrate is completely covered in Mycelium it wont be the sub that can get the contam, it will be the Mycelium itself. But I have a few things planned to avoid that.

S.O, I don't know about the Cinnamon and the exact gram content, to me its like a finger pointing to the moon, don't watch the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory. You know of course it isn't going to have THE exact proportional scale of nutrients per serving, its from nature, it depends where it was grown, what time of year, how rich was the soil. I really don't bother getting lost in the intricacies, if it works ,it works. Is it good for you? Great! I'm not a scientific nutrition anylizer . Does it matter...

Edited by Justincase, 23 October 2010 - 01:08 AM.


#34 Justintime

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 09:25 PM

It definately isnt cobweb, Cobweb isnt fine and tends to have lots of kinks and bends in its structure also Cobweb stinks this sub smells sweet and nutty.Lets not forget, I havent wet this growth down and it is growing in a way that is probably new to what you may have seen before. There is no blue green contam on top, Myco Warrior has mistaken shadowing. I look at this sub everyday, no blue green contam.
I know what it is that gives the appearance of Blue green mold. It is this; when I soaked the jar in Cinnamon infusion, Mycelium was flushed to the bottom of the jar and settled there, the jar was drained but the Mycelium stayed there in the bottom of the jar and as the jar dried out the Mycelium condensed into the formation you see in the crevices of the sub. The pic from the 20th oct you can still see the congealed Mycelium which is still a little too wet to start growing fluffy Mycelium filaments but by the 23rd Oct pic you see it has evaporated enough moisture to begin to do so. If you have ever had a liquid honey/water culture and looked on the underside of the jar lid you would have noticed that Mycelium will form there in a thin coating which is smooth and transparent, this is the same occurence on the upside down sub. Because the sub medium is dark in color, the thin coating of smooth moist Mycelium tends to appear as a blue grey color.Thanks

Edited by Justincase, 22 October 2010 - 09:53 PM.


#35 hyphaenation

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 09:46 PM

Take everything I say as just my opinion but that is not Cubensis mycelium... Is it suppose to be ? I missed the species of mushroom your experimenting with.

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That is contam ,as mentioned by Mycowarrior ... likely in the cobweb family or similar (a mold). I've seen it in under-sterilized grain. I'm 100 % sure , but i'll save 99.5 % to be safe.

http://mycotopia.net...ags/cobweb.html

Edited by hyphaenation, 22 October 2010 - 10:22 PM.


#36 Justintime

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 10:56 PM

Take everything I say as just my opinion but that is not Cubensis mycelium... Is it suppose to be ? I missed the species of mushroom your experimenting with.

Posted Image

That is contam ,as mentioned by Mycowarrior ... likely in the cobweb family or similar (a mold). I've seen it in under-sterilized grain. I'm 100 % sure , but i'll save 99.5 % to be safe.

http://mycotopia.net...ags/cobweb.html


Lol yep its supposed to be Cubensis, but how come it isnt melting with peroxide? It doesnt smell, it has had me a little worried that it isnt fluffy I sprayed it down with filtered water before I dunked it and some grey water ran off the sub, spores I suppose. I have a feeling the contam came with the Cubensis spore. Because my other jar is doing fine. Anyway, have just put that sub into a dunk of Cinnamon and freshly charged Nano silver particles, will have to wait and see. Not giving up just yet on this whole thing, will turn into an experiment to revive it if anything if it is contamed.Still have the other jar which is definately growing Cubensis fluffy Myc to work with. I think I probably tempted fate by taking the sub out of the jar and exposing it to the air so many times, I thought might as well push it to its limits. Think I will leave the other sub in the jar this time. We shall see, thanks for your constructive input. Hypheanation Well, at least the Trich never came back ,maybe the dunk I am giving it now will fix it up.

Edited by Justincase, 23 October 2010 - 01:00 AM.


#37 Justintime

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 12:59 AM

Have dunked the sub and the strands of cobweb arent visible ( although they were while it was immersed as dirty grey transparent strands ,there definately was Cubensis mycelium on the sub which is now visible as patches of silvery growth here and there which were hidden by the cobweb like growth before dunking.The sub has held together well and is back in its tub.BTW this is the Nano Silver I used from my thread below.

http://mycotopia.net...plications.html

Edited by Justincase, 23 October 2010 - 01:22 AM.


#38 Justintime

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 07:49 AM

Update, the sub I dunked in the Cinnamon had the contam re-emerge 24 hrs later so I threw it out. The contam was similar to Cobweb but impervious to Peroxide even at 6%.
I didnt intend to eat any mushrooms from this sub so I used the Nano particles to see what they would do in the mix with cinnamon infusion for the dunk.Obviously they did nothing for it as the contam came back. A trusted friend told me the sterling silver I was contemplating using to make the nanoparticles was made of 99.99 percent pure silver. Turns out it isnt, more like 92.5 %, the rest being copper and junk alloy (as with all sterling silver). Since the charged nano particles didnt help , I wont be bothering using colloidal silver nano particles in anything to do with substrates in the future.Also they are really bad for the environment if they get into waterways and also funk up soil balance.

I am happy with my conclusions that cobweb and Trichoderma do not survive in a substrate if cinnamon infusion is used in place of water in a substrate mix although that does not mean I wont get contams of other kinds especially if I dont follow proper procedure for sterility. Director Of Sound has left a good way of killing surface contams on my other Electrolysis thread BTW. Am over making threads about contam issues and the ideas for making things easier.

#39 Bobcat

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 11:55 AM

If nothing else, you have learned what healthy cubensis mycelium should NOT look like. That alone was worth the effort.
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#40 Justintime

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 12:41 PM

If nothing else, you have learned what healthy cubensis mycelium should NOT look like. That alone was worth the effort.


Yeah , I just didnt know what it was going to do because of its environment.
Wonder what it looks like on great dane...I did kill Trich with Cinnamon juice tho...I swear!!!!!! And that wasnt cobweb growing on the sub, something else impervious to peroxide....wish I was impervious :teeth:
Funny signature dood :lol:

I will post my recipe here in the future but Im gonna grow one first, itf it grows and fruits then will put it up, no use putting it up and then it funks up, gotta perfect it.




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