Posted 04 December 2010 - 03:07 PM
I wasnt sure which forumn to put this, so moderators feel free to move it.
What i want to discuss is the idea of Ultra-low-dose(ULD) naltrexone for opiate withdrawal and tolerance reversal/opiate potentiation, aswell if anyone has any experience using this for depression.
Right now this avenue of using Naltrexone is still fairly unstudied, although from what has been informaly studied it as been shown, that naltrexone which is an opiate agonist, while in very low doses not only doesnt block opiate effects, put potentiates them and can possible reverse tolerance back to pre-opiate levels.
How it does this is unclear to me, but from what i understand it blocks some process in a chain of processes which inevitable leads to opiate tolerance.
The normal dose to use naltrexone for blocking opiate effects or to use for breaking alcohol addidction is 50mg. The dose of which im talking about is in the range of 1micrograms to 3 Milligrams approximately.
The problem with this idea and dosing is that because of the lack of study, it is unsure the "exact" perfect dose for an individual, and it seems that it might be different for different people, there is a point where taking to much suddenly stops the desired effect. And considering how low the dose is its easy for someone to go over it, there is also the problem of properly dividing a 50mg pill into small enough doses with accuracy.
As for its use in depression i suspect the reason it is used this way has some correlation on why it works for opiate tolerance, it has been reported by a study that taking naltrexone at this low dosage, 30-60 minutes before bed can boost dopamine levels by 300%, or maby it was endorphins im not 100% now, but either way it has been reported that this has an effect on mood and depression in some people, more then likely in people have low natural levels of these neurochemicals, especialy people who have depression after opiate withdrawals.
Anyways, while some of what iv said might be somewhat based on speculation, most of it is based on clinical studies that have been done, i can get references if some people want, but im hoping that most of this will be somewhat familiar to those who might be interested in this sort of thing.
Finaly the main reason im posting this is because of my person experience with it,iv been reading about the possibilty of ULD naltrexone for quite some time, and iv been using opiates now on and off(mostly on) for 5 years or so.
Mostly in the form of poppy seed or pod tea.
Naltrexone is a prescription drug and i had some success ordering this from an oversea's pharmacy, drugs which have little to no abuse potential are the easisest to get.
I started by dissolving a 50mg pill in approximately 500ml of water, thus giving me approximately 10micrograms per ml of water, i used a pippete to measure out doses into a glass of whatever i was drinking, i would take it before my dose of opiates, hoping to test its effectiveness.
I must say based on what i heard and read, i had very high hopes of this stuff reducing my tolerance down to zero and helping me get off opiates. And while i do believe if properly used and optimal dosage is found this can be achieved i did not achieve that level of success. However, i did notice undeniable, that by adding this naltrexone it poteniated the opiates to a good degree, maby 10-15%, also while it didnt reverse my tolerance at all i did notice that it slowed my tolerance down to the point where i was getting decent effects off the same dose without having to increase it. The most important effect was that opiate withdrawals set in MUCH longer after last dose, this was the most noticeable effect for me as iv been taking opiates now for awhile, and something like this stands out alot when normaly withdrawals set in 12-18 hours after last dose, and increase pretty quickly. With naltrexone withdrawals started maby 24 hours afterwords and progress "relatively" slowly over the next 24 hours.
This has been extremely helpful as supply of opiates sometimes runs dry, and i havnt had serious withdrawals from opiates since i got the naltrexone, it has taken alot of pressure off to get opiates immediatly to stave off withdrawals.
I understand this is just subjective experience, and by no means proof of any effect, but for anyone interested in ULD Naltrexone for this purpose i hope they can take away from this a REAL experience with this from an average opiate user.
Finaly i just want to point out that id been using opiates for 5 years of regular use before this, so any effects i noticed were very noticeable to me and not just placebo, the amount of time i tested this was about 10 months, so a fairly large amount of time. Something i noticed was during the summer months, with the naltrexone in the water, my room would heat up and cool down and the liquid was exposed to almost direct sunlight every day, after 4-5 months i found that i was starting to not notice the effects anymore, i made a new solution and all the effects came back from the naltrexone.
Sorry for long post, i hope someone can get something from this, any questions i will try to answer.
Posted 07 December 2010 - 06:44 PM
Naltrexone has been around a while. It's not really typically used for depression in real life. This is due to depression being caused by multiple chemicals and endorphins would provide a kind of fix for this, but wouldn't really treat the symptoms (including better sleep, cognitive difficulties, etc.) There is MUCH more to being sad than just feeling sad, unfortunately. Which is why it never works long term for folks who 'self medicate'.
This is just my advice, if your looking to make opiates stronger, your playing a dangerous game by using pharmaceuticals. If your looking to actually get off opiates, get a full naltrexone shot- they work for thirty days at a time- and see a counselor.
Otherwise, just have more tea.
Posted 07 December 2010 - 07:31 PM
Posted 07 December 2010 - 10:47 PM
I doubt it would potentate opiated due to the the structure. Now if it was a mixed agonist/ antagonist like Pantazocine or Buprenorphine, I could see that maybe boosting the effects.
Hope that helps, if you want me to explain more let me know.
Posted 09 December 2010 - 05:08 PM
There are a couple links to explain a bit more about it.
There is a long thread all about it and some with experience over on Calaquendi's Eboka forum.
Posted 09 December 2010 - 06:12 PM
I'll post some links that should help atleast give me abit of credibility:
This is a journal of someone using it for self experimentation
Also there is being developed a form of oxycodone with LD nalrexone in it, that has been marketed for the same effects iv been mentioning, here is the wiki, but there is some clinical studies out there on the drug if your interested:
As for the claim about treating depression,i merely meant that it can improve endorphin levels substantialy and its true depression is often more complicated then just simply boosting natural neurochemical levels, but i think in some cases it can be very helpful.
This is a link talking about LD naltrexone in the context of MS, but the important quote is "A small dose of the drug taken nightly at bedtime can double or even triple the endorphin levels in the body all of the next day, restoring levels to normal." As endorphin levels become very low or depleted during opiate dependance, this is important. Especialy when you consider alot of the opiate withdrawal process is simple getting our bodies to start producing endorphins/dopamine etc back to normal pre-opiate levels, this can kick-start the system. Also imagine if it started producing enorphins again while your taking opiates and your body is used to not having, this could be the reason why it seems like we are reducing tolerance and increasing opiate effects aswell as reducing opiate withdrawal symptoms.
I'm by no means an expert on pharmacology or neurochemistry so i dont know the exact reason why it works, but there seems to be a growing body of evidence that it does indeed work.
Posted 10 December 2010 - 08:48 AM
Posted 14 December 2010 - 02:32 PM
1,000mcg[micrograms] = 1mg
Posted 16 December 2010 - 09:14 AM